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Thread: An answer for Fortaz......

  1. #251
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    We were having "save the Pacers" telethons. They needed warm bodies to keep the franchise from folding/ moving.

    Its easy to look back and say they should've taken Bird and waited on him, but they were in "survive next season" mode.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Guys, both Slick & Bird have said that in a pre-draft conversation that Bird asked if the Pacers could afford (X) amount of $$ for his contract & Slick had to tell him no. So he told him not to draft him.

    Now you could argue that the Pacers should have drafted him anyway but like you pointed out they really needed bodys on the floor & Robey was fairly popular at the time from being a star at Kentucky. Yes in hindsight it was horrid but at the time....

    If you fault the team for that then you also have to fault Walsh for not selecting Bryant in the draft since we skipped him as well because he told us not to draft him.


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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Guys, both Slick & Bird have said that in a pre-draft conversation that Bird asked if the Pacers could afford (X) amount of $$ for his contract & Slick had to tell him no. So he told him not to draft him.

    Now you could argue that the Pacers should have drafted him anyway but like you pointed out they really needed bodys on the floor & Robey was fairly popular at the time from being a star at Kentucky. Yes in hindsight it was horrid but at the time....

    If you fault the team for that then you also have to fault Walsh for not selecting Bryant in the draft since we skipped him as well because he told us not to draft him.

    In retrospect that was quite a favor he did us, huh?
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

  4. #254
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    We were having "save the Pacers" telethons. They needed warm bodies to keep the franchise from folding/ moving.

    Its easy to look back and say they should've taken Bird and waited on him, but they were in "survive next season" mode.
    i was at the pacer telethon.....i was a youngster at the time and begged, pleaded, and nagged my dad till he took me.....now dont laugh....but i gave my piggy bank to nancy leonard, while throwing a small fit and semi-embarassing my dad for not buying season tickets...

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Ok, that was rambling. Let me try & clarify. What you saw with the Bonzi Wells post was more of issue # 1 with me. I was trying to counter the Ron Artest army (& they know who they are don't you Suaveness ) by just injecting my thoughts into the debate. Maybe I shouldn't do that & it's something I'll think about & see how I feel about it.

    BTW, Suaveness knows that was meant in fun or at least I hope he does.

    How did you know about our army>!?!? I thought it was topsecret??
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    How did you know about our army>!?!? I thought it was topsecret??
    alright...we have a problem....this is starting to look a lot like portland....

    i want a complete check done on all hard drives....theres a traitor amongst us and he must be weeded out....

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    How did you know about our army>!?!? I thought it was topsecret??
    Harmonica has been remote viewing your meetings!

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Harmonica has been remote viewing your meetings!

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    You mean he wasn't that bikini-clad Hawaiian dancer we asked for?? Or was he....
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    alright...we have a problem....this is starting to look a lot like portland....

    i want a complete check done on all hard drives....theres a traitor amongst us and he must be weeded out....

    Usually not how the word weed is used when associated with Portland......

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    It seems to me like I remember there being a lot more involved in that 1978 draft than just not getting Larry Bird.

    We were shipping off players right and left after entering the league from the ABA, we just couldn't afford to re-sign them. And we were constantly looking to swap out older veterans making higher salaries for young studs not making nearly as much.

    Anyway, we decided to pass on Bird. But I thought that part of that decision was to acquire two players through the draft to fill our needs, and not just settle for one.

    I believe we actually had the #1 pick in that draft. But since the draft was week, didn't we trade that pick to Portland for their #3 pick and Johnny Davis (who just cimpleted his rookie season)? Portland took Mychal Thompson out of Minnesota, and the Pacers picked up two young players for a pick that they said they would have used on Robey, anyway.

    By the way, the draft rules back at that time did not lock in a draftee for 3 years. A draftee who refused to sign could sit out the single season, then go right back into the draft the following year.

  11. #261
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Dear God I don't even know how to begin this or for that matter where to begin. I thought about asking you to just summerize your thoughts in one post but then I thought that would be rude on my part. So I will try (& probably fail) to reply to each of your posts one by one.

    On a side note, man this thread went everywhere. At one point in time I thought I would just need to run in here with some soothing words or even a song just to end the tension.

    Ok, let's deal with this post first.

    Don't take this the wrong way but when it came to the Bonzi Wells thread I was dealing more with forum history than I was the post of the moment. Even though I was post # 17 in that thread there were 4 posters previous to me that have (in the past not that post) made comments about Bonzi Wells character while at the same time stating that character issues are off of the table with Ron.

    Ok, that is a little bit of hyperbole, nobody ever actually said that character issues were off the table with Ron but they will do everything in thier power to jump on the granade whenever it is tossed Ron's way & yet they dismiss Bonzi Wells because he has issues.

    I stated I have no interest in Bonzi. If he is the cancer behind the scenes that we hear about then I don't want him here either. But that in no way means that I should want Ron here just to make up the differance, does it?

    Ok, that was rambling. Let me try & clarify. What you saw with the Bonzi Wells post was more of issue # 1 with me. I was trying to counter the Ron Artest army (& they know who they are don't you Suaveness ) by just injecting my thoughts into the debate. Maybe I shouldn't do that & it's something I'll think about & see how I feel about it.

    BTW, Suaveness knows that was meant in fun or at least I hope he does.

    Ok, your first issue which I will deal with second.
    what u are saying is u took this opportunity to call out the ron artest supporters(for being a hypocrite in ur eyes)....no other way to look at it....and that was my whole problem...and why i asked u why u would feel compelled to do so....ron was never mentioned in the thread....hell, bonzis antics were barely mentioned in the thread....so why interject ron into the mix, especially when u know full well what will happen....

    even if people are on record as saying how they feel...and even if by disapproving of bonzi u feel theyre being hypocritical(thats a whole nother discussion really-whether ron and bonzi are the same)....the point is noone was bringing it up....it just screamed of looking for a reason to call these people out for their stance on ron....for which nothing good can be accomplished....and u know better....

    i understand how it easy to call someone out for being a hypocrite...ive mentioned my personal feelings regarding hypocrisy...its kinda what i did with the dale thing...it will really be a neverending spiral...favoritism and hypocrisy are intertwined, and will forever be....call people out for being a hypocrite if u would like-but when its done over and over on the same issue, its a bit redundant....and i guess was probably saying in this case "you started it" peck...and kinda my question was peck "why start that stuff" nothing new will come from it...if u have issues with hypocrites with one thing...if u have issues with people where ron is concerned, thats ok too...but to look to call those people out on those things when theyre not even being discussed...well...it will take things off on a tangent every time...and u know that


    Dale Davis.... Well were to begin with this?

    *******Please people for the love of God let's not take what I'm about to say as an excuse to argue about the brawl again************

    I'll just go ahead & say this now, it never would have gone that far with Dale for two reasons.

    1. Dale would have gone at Ben Wallace right at mid-court.

    2. Dale Davis (& this is IMPORTANT) would never have given Ben Wallace a gentle shove as he was going up for a basket like Ron did.

    People act like Ben was unprovoked by Ron, that's just not true. Ben way way over reacted no doubt, but what did Ron think Ben would do? Actually that was the problem IMO, Ron didn't think. He just reacted. He was fouled on the other end with no call by Big Ben's Big @ss & he vohemently complained at the half to Jim Grey that the refs. were letting him get killed under the boards so when this went down he reacted. We all know what happened from there.

    So, sorry I just can't agree with your Dale Davis analogy on this. Over his Pacer career I can only think of two occasions that Dale ever did anything to a player that wasn't looking at him & in both cases it was a retaliation for Mark Jackson getting hit & in neither case was Dale even called for a foul let alone a flagrant.

    1. He laid out Scottie Pippen with a hard pick (but I've always had a feeling that this was under the instruction of Bird but I have no proof) during the playoffs.

    2. He nailed Kurt Thomas in the back of the head on a rebound with a forarm & Kurts bell was rung & had to leave the game.

    Now if you are going to ask me if I approve of this? In the case of issue # 1 I do because it was in the sense of making a basketball play & even though it was hard it was legal (the refs. didn't even blow a whistle)

    As to issue # 2? No, that was wrong & Dale shouldn't have done that.

    Like I said I feel in my heart at least, that if Dale did anything I thought was wrong on the floor I would call him out for it. Now don't get me wrong though, I love it when Dale stands up for himself so if you think I'm going to call that wrong it just ain't happening. I've never seen Dale start a fight but I've seen him finish a lot of them.

    Ok, I hope I covered this post well enough for you. I will now move on to the next one.
    i expressed some of my views regarding the dale issue earlier...ill try to keep this brief...which means for me, 1 page instead of 2...

    dales my favorite....that being said....i have seen dale retaliate for something he felt was a bit uncalled for literally hundreds of times....it was in the course of the game...now most of these times he doesnt take a fighters stance-though he does at times...but a hard foul...a flagrant fouls at times...u betcha...im objective enuff to see that and dont have a separate agenda in trying to villify ron for the same behavior....

    every time dale does it or ron does it doesnt necessarily make it right....but its definitely part of the game....what ron did that nite was definitely part of the game...i wont get into the separate argument as to whether it was a flagrant foul or not...whether it was a flagrant 1 or 2 even...i have my personal opinions and im sure theyre skewed by our own personal mindsets...just like pistons fans...things can and probably always will be twisted to suit our personal needs...

    the point is dale has done what ron did many many times that nite...ron and dale have different reputations....dale also doesnt have some of the emotional issues that ron unfortunately has....so when ben overreacted....whatever dale does at that moment is gonna be perceived differently than what ron wouldve done for two reasons....1) ur personal feelings are differnt on the two of them 2)dales reputation is different-and notice im not arguing this point as to validity...ron has his reputation to consider where his actions are concerned...and that appears to be the very reason he walked away....hey...we agree on one thing, maybe...we both wouldve liked to see ron coldcock the guy for certain reasons....however, given rons reputation, i was absolutely grateful he didnt....in fact i remember almost yelling at the tv...ron walk away...please walk away-cause i knew nothing good could come of it...because he would be judged unfairly or at least severely due to his reputation...even when he walked away, i was like yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....but even as wallace kept on, i kept getting nervous...cause the issue wasnt dying down...it seemed to be escalating, especially with the actions of jack, hunter and others...and i remember thinking, god how long could ron, OR ANYONE else really remain relatively calm considering they just got jacked in the throat....and i also remember where are all the friggen security people to get these guys apart???...anyway...i understand the dynamic of wanting ron to retaliate to ben...but i also understand that would ok for just about anybody but Ron...with rons rep...he had to walk away...it would be much better for the team and ron....noone couldve known what would happen next...if they wouldve, it changes everything...but i find it hard to penalize ron for walking away when, in his case it was the right thing to do....the cup was a fluke....and if the cup misses...rons life would probably be much different....everyone would be celebrating rons 'changed behavior and applauding his restraint in such a volatile situation'...and theres no doubt in my mind that we wouldnt be playing the spurs this weekend....but if my aunt had balls shed be my uncle....

    and yes...as i said...if u put dale in that exact same situation(which u probably cant), with all the pent up pressure and stress from the game as well as the energy used to exercise restraint where wallace was concerned...yes...i think he snaps when the cup hits...and i also understand that rons reputation is whats responsible, in large part, for him having his hands tied where responding was concerned......but at that moment its somewhat unfair to blame him for that...all he can do is try to do things as best he can given the situation and his reputation.....and his response that nite was to be applauded-even if it was followed up later by one that is not-no matter how understandable it might be....

    u see...this is tough...because of his reputation...u now ask a guy to respond in a manner that not even normal guys would...for a guy that has serious issues with that-well...lets just say thats a helluva lot to ask...and yes...u can say well whos fault is it...no question about that...but i would say he did do that...he showed more restraint than most anyone would-and where did that eventually get him....thats why i say its almost a no win for him...

    so thats why i probably will support him...at least when he does things that others would do-like his hard foul on wallace....he does something wrong that everyone would agree is wrong...u betcha...ill be the first to call it...but i also believe in an even playing field and giving credit where credit is due...

  12. #262
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Ok, again I think we're on the same page. The only part I think we might be on a differant path on is the comment you made about training, educating & makeing the person better. Now if your talking about youngters coming up then you are 100% correct. I'm not sure though that it is the job of the NBA to make the person better. Train? Yes. Educate? Yes. Make a better person? I'd buy it, but then you'd have Rasheed Wallace or Charles Barkley or somebody esle saying they are grown men & shouldn't have to conform to a certain type of person. I think the best they can do is hope they improve as a person. Then this brings up another issue altogether. At what point in time does the assitance of one player become a detriment to other players? I'm sure we'll kick this around as time goes on.
    as an employer-the pacers-it definitely is in their best interest to not only improve ron as a player and a teammate but at least improve the way he is PERCEIVED as a person....this benefits the NBA also...especially with all the problems is having regarding its fan base....and i will tell u this...a problem as large as what has developed is a major major opportunity....and any smart businessman knows this....and we have some incredibly smart business people when u start talking about the nba and the simons' pacer organization...

    this is just one of the reasons artest isnt going anywhere...to cast him off admits hes a lost cause and many many mistakes were made....and whether they were mistakes or not doesnt matter anymore-a point i wish a number of u would digest....whats really important is what happened after nov. 19 and beyond....the eyes of millions will be watching very closely from here on out....and the potential positive impact that can be made is substantial...and for that reason you know have stern and his nba and all their powers as well as the simons' and all their powers going to be doing everything they can do to ensure that rons comeback is not only successful but perceived as a minor miracle and a great human interest story....the against all odds story.....the perceived thug-which isnt accurate-to a player that 'turns himself around' to be worthy contributor to the nba and a championship team.....it makes for great marketing-and we know how stern and the nba feel about that...

    this is why helping ron be recognized as the quality human being that he is is so important....its not that he isnt a great human being...its that he is perceived to be something other than that because of his behavioral issues....you ensure he gets the help he needs to deal with his serious issues then u allow the real ron to come out-and most know that the real ron minus the issues will be not only a dominant basketball player but an incredible human being who a lot of people will be able to relate to because of his personal values as well as respect because of what he might have overcome...



    Ok, let's take your theory as being correct. The theory is that since I am not a Ron Artest fan I will certainly react differantly to what he does than say what Uncle Buck does. I will concur with that & won't even dispute it in any way. In fact I think your right about that.

    Now since I've since I've admitted this I would like you to examine one thing.

    Cause & effect. What caused me to become a non-Artisian & what effect does it play in the way I view him.

    Surely you realize that I didn't just wake up one day & say "You know I need a Pacer to hate today so I think I will choose Ron". Even if you give me that do you think it was just a one time event or was it something more? Was it a pattern of events & behavior that I saw that I didn't like & thus turned me the way I am? & if that is the case then if I see a continuation of the same events & behaviors am I wrong for feeling the same way or am I just predisposed to picking on Ron because I don't like him.

    In other words which came first the chicken or the egg?
    this is probably one of the most crucial points....

    Peck...and anyone that shares ur feelings...

    RON HAS GIVEN U MORE THAN ENUFF BEHAVIORAL DISAPPOINTMENTS TO WRITE HIM OFF...YES...HE HAS...UR FEELINGS ARE TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE...

    i have no doubt that with maybe the exception of Jay, that u as well as most had a clean slate when ron came to town...ill assume as much...and no i dont think u woke up one day and said i want to hate a pacer or ron....i fully understand that it was many of rons behavioral effects combined with how they were perceived to affect the team as well as everyones goal to win a championship...i also realize it comes in part from the human desire to blame someone or something any time we fell disappointment, such is experienced when we are eliminated from the playoffs....

    so are your feelings justified??? YES THEY ARE....

    "now foretaz, if u say this, how come u dont share the rest of our opinions on the matter, specifically why would u even consider supporting him???"

    there are a number of reasons i feel this way, some of which u might even find hypocritical

    1) it is my nature to try and find good in everyone....i can find more good in ron artest than i probably could find in probably 99 percent of professional athletes.....his personal values, especially his family values, are a rarity in professional sports and in society in general....this means a tremendous amount to me....
    his competitive nature, his bringing it every single nite, the pride he has for his performance, his truly caring about his performance and how it affects the outcome, the effort he takes to get and maintain his body in superior shape just exemplifies an overall committment level that is greatly lacking these days and one which i find very appealing when i do consider the kind of money these guys are being paid and how costly it is to be a fan these days, just his overall attitude and approach to the game itself, he is definitely a prima donna-just the opposite...and i could probably go on and on...and i dont think many would dispute these things....

    IN SHORT...RON SEEMS TO REALLY CARE ABOUT THE GAME, HIS PERFORMANCE, AND THE FANS...

    HE CARES...

    2)ok...ive found the good...but what about the bad in people?

    well this is my approach with ron or anyone else....what is he doing and why....rons problems are almost all behavior related....more to the point they are all response related....now that in itself doesnt give cause for optimism...trust me, there are many people i dont care for simply because of how they react, many times how they react to adversity, because thats typically the real issues...

    so i try to understand why they react the way that they do....many peoples reactions are based on how they are as people...hey...facts are facts...many out there are just a$$holes and dickheads....and when faced with adversity that comes screaming to the forefront....and i really dont feel thats the case with ron...and i think others might not either....as i just stated above it appears he s just the opposite....and whenever this is not the case, that person is immediately gonna get a much longer leash with me and i will try to go much deeper to find out what the problem is...

    so then why does he do it???....the ole devil made me do it??...well maybe not quite as farfetched as it sounds....rons behavior is irrational at best at times...that in itself is telling...people dont just act that way...theres a reason for it...and its an alarm for emotional/mental issues...

    and i will tell u that i dont follow the norm here....like it or not, as this forum only further validates by some of the comments i see about what to do with the nutcase and people having screws loose, etc...i think the way people treat people with emotional problems or mental disease is both disgusting and inhumane....but then thats the way society typically is...guys got a problem thats his tough luck....get rid of him and his problems....and u know what...im not sure the pacers wouldnt take that same stance if it wasnt for the benefits he potentially brings when hes able to perform....sad , but true and a reality in this world...luckily, no matter the reason, it appears they have committed to helping him-so their motivation really doesnt matter to me, ultimately...

    ron doesnt appear to have a mental disease....not in any way shape or form...he does appear, simply by his well documented behavior, to have some rather serious emotional issues....and to me, the GQ article was the final confirmation of that....instead of just hearing and seeing how he behaves we were able to hear much more about how he thinks....and even get some insight as to why he thinks the way he does...

    and it was very telling.....he obviously has unresolved deep seated, emotional, traumatic issues...the existence of these issues then make all of the behavioral issues make much more sense....i dare say they make the irrational behavior understandable....

    as i said...i dont take a light attitude that most do with this...he needs help...hes obviously getting that help....and these types of issues are certainly 'fixable' with the proper counseling and therapy....and everyone, most notably ron, will be much much better off as time goes by as long as the level of committment remains to resolving them...

    quite simply, these types of issues dont incline me to pass him off-quite the opposite -it makes me much more sympathetic to what is a genuinely nice guy whos got some serious issues to resolve....

    3) i dont mean to get all religious on anyone, so dont read too much into this....when jesus was asked by the pharisees, i believe, "but lord, how many times shall we forgive our brother-7 times? 77 times?" he responded with something to the sort "777 times is not enuff"

    the point is simple...and i see it asked quite a bit....at what point is enuff, enuff? well i just gave u a bit of a take on my viewpoint.....because ron certainly appears to have a very good heart and doesnt appear to enjoy his behavior when its bad....and because of the nature of his problems....i would say my response would be to the question or questions that go 'how long do we wait, how long do we keep giving him a break, how long is long enuff'

    TIL HE GETS BETTER....and as long as im convinced that hes putting forth an effort to get better that will always be my stance....if people dont share my viewpoints on humanity, i understand as im fully aware of the attitude alot of people take in this world regarding people who have problems similar to ron...however i wont apologize for my feelings on these issues...what can i say im loyal...

    4) im a pacers fan...hes a pacer...to me it doesnt even matter if i like him or not....this kind of goes to the whole FAN thing im gonna do....my feeling is as long as im a pacer fan and supporter that i will be supportive of the whole organization, whether i personally agree or like everything about the pacers....i have made a decision to be a fan...i made that decision knowing full well its not all gonna be positives....im not gonna be happy all the time...im not gonna agree with them all the time...im not gonna like all the members, whether it be coaches, players, management etc....

    i look at it much like a marriage....for better or for worse....i think this is why its called being a FAN...because its a bit fanatical in the concept....but able so aptly put that when ur a pacer supporter u show that support in many different ways...and i personally feel one of those ways is being supportive when i disagree or dont like something....i dont like austin croshere all that much....but as long as hes a pacer he has my support-though at times its hard-and i have to really check myself on that issue....when he was making one shot in like 6 games-well i believe our allegiance and support is always tested....that was mine....i feel ron artest is a test for many of you on here...and for me, at times as well...

    its not easy be a fan...its not easy supporting something we dont like or agree with....and i think its a bit of a bail out to say thats not what a fan means...because i would say back to u then, how is that any different than supporting a team that is losing??? you dont have to be happy that ur losing, but if ur not a fan then-well ur not really a true fan....i personally dont see much difference other than the fact that people dont like that either...which only validates further what im saying....

    what i would tell u is if austin croshere goes to another team i dont have to like him or support him.....and the same holds true for those of u that dont like ron....if hes ever not with the pacers then u can hate him all u want...i personally will continue to like him for the reasons i mentioned to begin with and these things dont change when he leaves the team....

    but the point is i feel as long as im a pacer fan that my loyalty to the team and organization is far larger than any one part of it....and one of the ways i show my support is not only by supporting the parts that i like and agree with but doing the same for the things i dont like or agree with....like i said, what can i say, im loyal....

    to me its the exact same thing as family....ive been a fan for 35 years or so....its a family type relationship ....if a family member screws up well he will still have my support.....especially if that family member is perceived to have a great heart and has serious emotional issues that are in some way are responsible for him acting in a reprehensible manner....do i excuse these acts? nope...do i like them? nope...do i hate the person and quit supporting him???? nope...




    Ok, maybe it's just late at night or I'm just dense but I have no idea what you are trying to get at here. On the one hand you say we shouldn't focus to much on one single player (or at least that's what I think you are saying) & on the other hand you say that it's not very contructive for the team if certain dislikes regarding certain player keep becoming the focal point. That second statement makes Jay & myselfs point better than almost anything we've ever written. In other words one player can bring a team down.

    I'm with ya on that without question.

    Now as to the benefit of the doubt for Ron. Like I said above cause & effect. His benefit of the doubt with me ran out a season & a half ago. Does that mean that from this day forward I must hate Ron Artest & spit on any of his fans? No, obviously it does not. Like I told Since86 give me one season of no disruptions & I will pretty much go away. I still will always be leary of the guy but give me one season where I don't hear anything about Ron Artest other than how great of a job he did in shutting down his man or can you believe he led the league in rebounding (I can dream can't I) & I won't be on here offering up reasons as to why the team would be better without him.
    the point i think i was making that wasnt really clear is what i addressed in item number 4) ....having to do with fans and what it means...

    as far as giving him the benefit of the doubt...this is my contention...and i highlighted ur feelings on it...not only are u not giving him the benefit of the doubt....but because of his past behavioral patterns affecting ur mindset to the point u dont like him, u are now holding him to a standard, that whether u realize it or not and whether u like it or not, is a standard that u hold noone else to or is it even a standard anyone should be held to.....and more to the point...u appear to be taking a stance that every time something is not reaching that standard ur gonna say i told u so and use it against him...

    ur a pacers fan...why would u hold him to a standard that u wouldnt hold any other team member to? or why should he be held to a standard that u wouldnt hold a pistons player to? why should he be held to a standard that the nba doesnt hold him to??

    there will be issues with every player on our team...and to say the only way ron will ever be any different in ur eyes is if u go a whole season without hearing anything but positive things about his play is really the same as saying" hes got no chance with me"....u are setting him up for failure...and u know it...by holding the bar so high that he or anyone else couldnt possibly do anything but fail....pick any player in the league...grant hill, tim duncan, anyone....none of them will measure up to that statement and it truly is, well....

    because heres the thing....hes a player that one, because of his ability and performance, that u typically would give a bit longer leash-not unlike others similar to his status in the league-whether we like it or not....and two, because of his serious issues hes dealing with it might be reasonable to assume there might be times when he does have relapses and these will have to be dealt with accordingly....

    but if he continues to make progress....he becomes less of a distraction and more of a contributor to the team and its unity...and the team gets better as a whole and performs in a way that most are happy with....why shouldnt that be enuff for u??....because what ur saying is its not enuff....he has to be perfect is what ur saying-which is probably something u will deny-but its really what ur sayiing....look at it again...noone is perfect...and to say that even after hes perfect, u will still be leary....i mean cmon...seriously..really...cmon....

    ron will never be perfect...neither will anyone else....and ron, as mentioned in 1) above is far ahead of most players in most categories....if ron continues to improve upon his behavioral deficiencies which allow the team to really begin to come together the way that we all would like....that should be more than enuff for anyone....anyone...anyone


    P.S. i was gonna do a post on why i like and support ron artest...but this is pretty much it...maybe ill post it on its own...or maybe i wont...

  13. #263
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Can somebody say what it is about Ron's "family values" that they like?

    Is it because he has multiple children from multiple girlfriends?

    It is because he has been charged with leaving threatening messages on the answering machine of one of the mothers of his children back in NY?

    It is because the police were called for a domestic disburance involving a different mother of his children in Indy?

    Some of you have seen him with his children and have observed that he seems to be a good father, at least publicly. But as for being a good "family man", well, this seems to be a mixed bag; and not a ringing endoresement of Ron.

    As I've said before, this particular aspect of Ron isn't very interesting to me. But some of you are more interested in Ron's relationships with his children, wives, and ex-lovers than Ron's relationships with his coaches, management and teammates. Please explain.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  14. #264
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Peck, foretaz, I really think I'm a better man for reading all this.

    I can sit though anything now! BRING ON THOSE SOAP OPERAS!

    Er oh ah, sorry I shouted!

  15. #265
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    BTW, as to the franchise being taken down let's just say this. The Pacers nationally had two things going for them, well three if you count Reggie.

    1. The general public had no idea who they were. If they played the Knicks or somebody then people would know but to the causal fan who only turn in when the big market team is in a deep playoff run they had no idea.

    2. Those who did know always thought the highest of our franchise & the words respect were almost always said when talking about the way that Walsh & the Simons have ran the franchise from a management standpoint & competative was the other word when they talked about the on floor product.

    Now virtually every casual fan knows our franchise & it ain't because Reggie Miller retired. Indiana Punchers is not just a local T-shirt, it's a national thing. I saw one at Reagan International airport in D.C. not but one week ago.
    as for the Tshirt-there will always be opportunistic people trying to make a buck on someone elses misfortune...they also made hicks shirts...my personal feelings arent much different on either...

    i personally dont have a problem with bringing the pacers franchise into the national spotlight...im not saying i like the circumstances that it happened...but there is a saying that there is no such thing as bad publicity...im not saying i agree with that...but the fact that we will now have more peoples attention, be on nat'l tv more( u dont think rons first game back at the palace wont be a thanksgiving day game? whatta ya wanna bet?) is the opportunity for others to find out what ur saying about our great franchise...

    and i think ur take on the whole situation might be a bit tainted by ur mindset as far as ron goes...

    dont u remember the overwhelming opinion that night as far as what people thought? yes the nba put an end to that and spun it much differently...and i was never so disgusted as i was when suddenly the whole episode went from being shown from the foul to just the part where ron went into the stands....wallaces overreaction suddenly disappeared....so yes, to many , thats all they saw....

    however i think the detroit market and its fans suffered far more than the pacers franchise....ron artest took a huge hit...but remember something....how many people everywhere have said they wouldve done the same thing as ron??? shaq and grant hill come immediately to mind....i really do think ur take on this is a bit off...

    yes...the franchise was damaged a bit...anything negative is never good...but i think ur also forgetting the fact that they then took all the adversity and turned it into a somewhat of a storybook ending...the fact that many thought the penalties were too severe only added to that story and the pacers were cast into that underdog role, that people inevitably gravitate to....you couple that with reggies somewhat storybook retirement that was a direct result and it turns into a pretty decent feel good story instead of taking the franchise down....and the whole organization is to be applauded...could it have taken the franchise down??? i think so.....did it? not at all...

    i dont think the harm is nearly as bad as u think...and i think the opportunities that have presented themselves have been and will be continued to elevate this franchise...which is what great organizations do when faced with adversity...


    Also, & bear in mind this is not my mindset but there are a lot of people who are Pissed off that Ron was involved (there I didn't just blame him) in ruining Reggie Millers last season & what some people considered his best chance at a title.

    Like I said I'm not of that thought but I know some who are.
    i completely understand that feeling....and wouldnt really argue with those that feel that way....because i agree that the pacers would have been the favorites to win the title...ive said so before....

    the only thing i might tell those people as a consolance is this....reggie might have indeed gone out with a championship....we will never know for sure...one thing i do know....he would never have gone out with more fanfare and in a more appropriate manner 'with guns blazing' and scoring 27 in his final game while throwing his team almost singlehandedly on his back and carrying them off into the sunset, so to speak...

    that...and reggie openly said he didnt blame ron....though im not sure i totally believe him

  16. #266
    Member Alabama-Redneck's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Can somebody say what it is about Ron's "family values" that they like?

    Is it because he has multiple children from multiple girlfriends?

    It is because he has been charged with leaving threatening messages on the answering machine of one of the mothers of his children back in NY?

    It is because the police were called for a domestic disburance involving a different mother of his children in Indy?

    Some of you have seen him with his children and have observed that he seems to be a good father, at least publicly. But as for being a good "family man", well, this seems to be a mixed bag; and not a ringing endoresement of Ron.

    As I've said before, this particular aspect of Ron isn't very interesting to me. But some of you are more interested in Ron's relationships with his children, wives, and ex-lovers than Ron's relationships with his coaches, management and teammates. Please explain.

    Obviously, by the sarcastic way you ask your questions, you really could care less what the answers are and I am sure you really won't agree with them regardless, unless they match your own opinion.

    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

  17. #267
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Can somebody say what it is about Ron's "family values" that they like?
    sure....you knew i could

    Is it because he has multiple children from multiple girlfriends?
    partly....the fact that he has children from two different women make him just like millions of other families out there that come from or are part of broken homes....people can relate...

    It is because he has been charged with leaving threatening messages on the answering machine of one of the mothers of his children back in NY?
    partly...because once again people can relate...all this says is hes much like millions out there....once again...many, many have some exposure to broken homes and the problems that arise...and the fact that ron has been no different allow people to 'relate' to him....leaving threatening messages to the mother of his children is typically understood for what it really is when a player cares for his children the way that ron obviously cares for his....people make mistakes...all the time...it proves hes human...just like all the rest of us...most all of us have made some sort of rhetorical threat in our lives that we were not proud of....

    i assure u the number of people that have not done something of this nature is far smaller than those who have...doesnt make it right...only makes it human...often times the more human these athletes appear the more appealing they become


    It is because the police were called for a domestic disburance involving a different mother of his children in Indy?
    wow...cmon...u know better...i know u do...and what were the findings regarding this incident???????? shame on u jay...that comment is national enquirer like

    Some of you have seen him with his children and have observed that he seems to be a good father, at least publicly. But as for being a good "family man", well, this seems to be a mixed bag; and not a ringing endoresement of Ron.
    ur really missing the point i think....or choosing to ignore it because it suits u...not sure which...ill just choose to say its the first because i like u and wanna give u the benefit of the doubt....the point that i think u might be missing is this....

    its quite apparent, that his family is incredibly important to him....there seems little doubt that its number one is life....that sort of thing is definitely a quality that seems to be dwindling these days....the fact that its such a huge priority to a professional athlete is somewhat noteable as this isnt how they typically are portrayed...once again...its something people admire..and rightfully so in this case...

    i do find it interesting that u would overdramatize the other events, while downplaying the importance of fatherhood which could be argued to be the most important, by far...


    As I've said before, this particular aspect of Ron isn't very interesting to me. But some of you are more interested in Ron's relationships with his children, wives, and ex-lovers than Ron's relationships with his coaches, management and teammates. Please explain.
    it might not be interesting to u....and thats ok....theres definitely a trend for looking at these players as just objects and whether they help our team win and thereby give us personal satisfaction or hinder our team and cause them to lose thereby providing us with great personal disappointment and heartache....

    as far as each ones personal interest regarding family versus secular relationships...i cant speak for others...i do know that anytime that people feel like they can relate to a superstar professional athlete or entertainer, they inevitably do gravitate that way.....to make it even more interesting is this....one of the NBA's biggest problems is losing touch with its fanbase....they want an need stars that the fans can relate to....thats hard considering the lives of the majority of professional athletes places in society....

    all these things u mention about ron only point out how much easier it is for the 'average joe' to relate....

  18. #268
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama-Redneck
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    Obviously, by the sarcastic way you ask your questions, you really could care less what the answers are and I am sure you really won't agree with them regardless, unless they match your own opinion.


    lol...i started to type a very similar response...but i like jay...and to do so would be doing just what he did and some of the others do when discussing ron....

    so i chose to give him the benefit of the doubt....

    if i cant do it with him....how can i expect him or anyone else to do it with ron???

  19. #269

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    man, i would almost like to see what foretaz has to say except that the font he uses is simply far too annoying to look at. it would be nice if that font were unavailable. nothing personal but, that font is awful and i won't read any post by people who feel they have to do something like that to stick out.

  20. #270

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Actually it isn't too bad to look at anymore, since it isn't small and dark
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  21. #271
    Member Alabama-Redneck's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    I really have zero problems with the color or size of foretaz's fonts. In fact I like the size as old people need all the help we can get.

    Besides, I read a post for content not appearance.

    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

  22. #272
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama-Redneck
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    I really have zero problems with the color or size of foretaz's fonts. In fact I like the size as old people need all the help we can get.

    Besides, I read a post for content not appearance.

    If you need a bigger size, go up to view and click on text size.

  23. #273
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    If you need a bigger size, go up to view and click on text size.
    He means for web viewing...

    Otherwise visit:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8132227/


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  24. #274
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Dang!

    I sure do learn a lot on this site that has nothing to do with the Pacers.

  25. #275

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    I'm scared...
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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