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Thread: An answer for Fortaz......

  1. #26
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......


  2. #27
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Knucklehead Warrior
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    Why is this surprising? It's part of our Indiana basketball heritage. In fact it's been going on for at least 20 years. When it comes to basketball in OUR state, integrity and character often take a back seat as the end clearly justifies the means.

    .
    I'm sorry, I have to jump on this.

    I think (at a risk of inspiring flippant comments) that the definition of "integrity" and "character" (or, probably more to the point, the definition of a fatal flaw in integrity and character) is extremely important.

    Taking the example that I'm betting you wanted everyone to think about ...

    Knight's actions on the court and in practice, in the heat of competition or in the handling of team members, have been the areas in the spotlight. Similarly to Ron's actions, some have seen the on-court as "heat of the moment" issues that deserved punishment but then should be evaluated in terms of current behavior. Some have seen them as unacceptable, but when they become unacceptable was individually determined. The issues in practice - which were the final straw - stemmed from an approach to practice that worked or failed on a team-member-by-team-member basis. In Knight's case, once a final straw was reached the decision (controversial as it may have been) was made to cut him loose. So far, I haven't heard boo about his actions at TT, perhaps he has changed (or is that impossible ...)

    Also like Ron, there were lots of upsides that resulted in the extension of extra chances. Winning was not really one of them, except as it might have applied to the emotional connection the Knight Fanatics showed in his favor. Recall that Knight conducted his recruiting with unquestioned propriety. Remember what his graduation rate was. Do these count as part of a definition of character or integrity? Which would you rather have - a coach that behaves like a ****** in practice and on the court but emphasizes graduation, teamwork, and proper procedures? Or a coach that is perfect on the floor and in practice but cheats in recruiting and emphasizes basketball over education (and probably compiles a better record)?

    We can acknowledge the similarity of the situations but please don't make it so simplistic as to state that Indiana basketball fans subsume everything to winning.
    BillS

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  3. #28
    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    In the Paul Pierce thread he asked me:

    peck....i respect u...and thats why i ask this question....

    when u speak of artest....its like u become someone other than urself....

    u dont speak of opponents players the way you do of artest...in fact u never speak like u do when u discuss artest....its just so, so far out of character for u....

    why?....theres a fine line between love and hate, i know....but its almost like the sheer mention of artest seems to just hit a button and u become some other person....the obvious negative emotion u feel towards him just seems to be so out of character....

    and i cant understand, why...these types of emotions are usually only reserved for very personal relationships....its almost like u react like a woman scorned would....but im assuming thats far from the truth....

    so, again, im curious....why is it so personal with u where ron is concerned versus ur typical take on all other players and issues-a usually fairly unbiased and rational approach....im just very intriqued how a basketball player of any kind can evoke such a dramatic, somewhat irrational response from someone that appears to be just the opposite....

    so again, i ask with all due respect....why?


    I've actually started to answer this three differant times & each time I had to erase for differant reasons. But I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you so I will attempt to hammer this out right now.

    Issue # 1

    A lot & I mean a LOT of my stuff about Artest comes on the heels of one of his fans making excuses for him. Or better yet justifying his actions because they are fans of his.

    Look there is nothing wrong with fan worship, God knows I am an idiot when it comes to Dale Davis (no comments about me being an idiot all of the time from the peanut gallery) but I have always felt that if Dale did something I was ashamed of on the court I would call him out on it. I know a certain someone is about to get on here & berate me for not chastizing Dale for fighting, but I always look at it like this that Dale goes face to face with his man & not hit him from behind or act like he wants to do something he really doesn't want to do.... But that's all besides the point.

    Your new here so I won't bore you with all of the old stuff on here but I will say this. There is a segment on here who thinks just because Ron is a great basketball player he can do no wrong.

    When I see wrong I can't just close my eyes & put my hands over my ears & go "la la la" I have a bad habit of calling it out.
    ok...ive decided theres only one way i can do this...and thats go by a section at a time...i realize it might not flow the best....but theres a lot here...and i think each is a bit in of itself, worth talking about....in the end ill try to pull it all together...but i think it might be obvious by that time what im getting at...

    the above is what i would call the premise for what u do...or have done in some cases....

    and i think u understand, this is my bigggest potential hangup...maybe...discussion shall make it more clear if indeed it is or not....

    after the events of the last few days ive decided to start 3 separate threads when i can find the time....and there structure, i promise will be a bit different...they will be more of a literary piece u read versus just throwing my thoughts down in the same way i speak...

    the first will deal with the FAN and what all that entails...and the many ways FANS conduct themselves as well as the many different ways they support their team....and we will delve into the touchy subjects -and they are very subjective-as to what is appropriate, do i dare say, and what might not be...

    the second and third will probably be one about ron and one about jo....they are the two best players on this team and because of that they are probably the most controversial...

    the three threads will all tie together....and many of the thoughts may come up as im discussing this current thread..

    anyway...sorry to wander....ur premise is pretty understandable....i would tell u im not in the boat that feels ron walks on water...im not sure who might feel this way, when u say that or something similar...i would have a problem with anyone that feels he can do no wrong simply because hes a basketball player...

    however...my huge issue is this premise that i see...and i cant quite tell if its hypocritical or not....and thats why im discussing it....dale davis is my favorite pacer player....has been almost since he got here....after watching about his first 10 games he definitely was....

    BUT....because hes our favorite player...doesnt mean we just pass off what he does and basically make excuses for it....how is that any different than what so blatantly rubs u the wrong way where 'artest apologizers' are concerned....

    from day one...dale has always been one whos not afraid to fight...and while u can argue all u want that its needed-enforcer-that in no way makes it any less worse than what it really is...seriously-and i dont want to wander off topic-but ive often wondered what dale wouldve done if the cup hit him in the chest....i love him...but i cant help but think he wouldve done something similar-dont kill me...(of course, i also believe wallace wouldnt have shoved dale in the throat, but even if he did dale wouldve kicked his *** and never wouldve never got near the scorers table in a half frenzied state-which is why i so often times find myself wishing artest wouldve just coldcocked wallace like he wanted to-but because he is so trying to 'change' and use restraint, and be a better teammate he backed off, but anyway)

    but this goes to mindset again...giving someone the benefit of the doubt...not looking for things to hate a person for....if dale had done it...the reaction wouldve been a bit different...and thats not really my point as much as how the initial mindset almost predetermines how we view everything that happens....

    but i guess as i review that thread over and over regarding bonzi...the real reason i somewhat questioned it then and still do now is this....the posts leading up to ur comments didnt seem to be the type of posts that would induce such a dramatic emotional post (am i overreacting)

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=12430

    reread the thread from the beginning...to the point where u responded in the 17 post....

    i just remember thinking when reading....wow....where did that come from...and thinking it just seemed out of character...

    if the premise is to not stand by when u see something being said that is blatantly wrong...ok...i agree with that...but thats not really what u did in that post....

    I have never been able to figure out how it is that the first people to rush to make certain that Ron Artest is aquited of a felony are also always the first in line to spit on Bonzi Wells.

    I have no real interest in Bonzi at this point either, but for the love of God let's not act like he is a worse person than Ron.
    it seems to me u used the fact that people were saying they didnt want bonzi here(and i only saw one post prior to urs that was somewhat graphic about bonzi) as a form to really vent a little about ron...i sense a lot of emotion in the way that post is worded....now maybe it had to do with what was going on with u at that very moment...and i certainly dont want to pick a post a part...we could do that with anyones...especially mine...but it appears to me that the 'i have no real interest in bonzi' was on point and the rest was a somewhat unsolicited semi-attack on ron character...forgive me for saying so...

    so u see my point on the premise issue??? or no....

    i will say this...with players we like, as well as other fellow humans, we are much quicker to relunctantly accept their faults....simply because we like them...but if we get the mindset we dont like someone...well....our behavior can be a bit irrational and out of character at times....as evidenced by a post i posted just a bit earlier in this thread....for which im already somewhat regretting....

  4. #29
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious Tyrant
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    You know, this one has me thinking. I don't know what to think of it. I have typically thought of Ron as being sparked by apparently random things, but I never thought that they only happen when he can "beat up" the other person. What do others think?
    There's almost never "another person." As far as the AK-47 thing, Ron's got a pretty good record with this... I'd bet most NBA players have stories like this. These aren't the things that worry me about Ron. Nobody thought Jordan was mental for trying to take Reggie's eyes out.

    If Ron was scared of Ben, he wouldn't have fouled him going to the rack. He'd have let him score and walked out with the win.

    I don't want to get into this thread (other than to say the first point BillS made was 100% right on), but I think this is crazy talk. Ron has a lot of problems (and I like the guy!), but he's not a bully. You can't get there from here unless you already dislike the guy and are looking for ways to make him look bad. Peck's been doing this for a while (and I truly respect Peck).

    EDIT: Bill just posted another great point. Just to clarify, I was talking about his original post.
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  5. #30
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Maybe the best post of the year, Peck.

    Every single poster on this board knows Ron Artest can play the game at a high level, that's not the debate. The guy has too many problems, and Peck did an excellent job of outlining those.

  6. #31
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Ron has a lot of problems (and I like the guy!), but he's not a bully. You can't get there from here unless you already dislike the guy and are looking for ways to make him look bad.
    you might have just summarized my next post which will probably take a few thousand words in the matter of two sentences...


  7. #32
    Member Knucklehead Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS
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    I'm sorry, I have to jump on this.

    I think (at a risk of inspiring flippant comments) that the definition of "integrity" and "character" (or, probably more to the point, the definition of a fatal flaw in integrity and character) is extremely important.

    Taking the example that I'm betting you wanted everyone to think about ...

    Knight's actions on the court and in practice, in the heat of competition or in the handling of team members, have been the areas in the spotlight. Similarly to Ron's actions, some have seen the on-court as "heat of the moment" issues that deserved punishment but then should be evaluated in terms of current behavior. Some have seen them as unacceptable, but when they become unacceptable was individually determined. The issues in practice - which were the final straw - stemmed from an approach to practice that worked or failed on a team-member-by-team-member basis. In Knight's case, once a final straw was reached the decision (controversial as it may have been) was made to cut him loose. So far, I haven't heard boo about his actions at TT, perhaps he has changed (or is that impossible ...)

    Also like Ron, there were lots of upsides that resulted in the extension of extra chances. Winning was not really one of them, except as it might have applied to the emotional connection the Knight Fanatics showed in his favor. Recall that Knight conducted his recruiting with unquestioned propriety. Remember what his graduation rate was. Do these count as part of a definition of character or integrity? Which would you rather have - a coach that behaves like a ****** in practice and on the court but emphasizes graduation, teamwork, and proper procedures? Or a coach that is perfect on the floor and in practice but cheats in recruiting and emphasizes basketball over education (and probably compiles a better record)?

    We can acknowledge the similarity of the situations but please don't make it so simplistic as to state that Indiana basketball fans subsume everything to winning.
    Bill, I think we're in agreement. I meant to emphasize not Knight's character or integrity, but the character and integrity of those who think the end justifies the means. It was meant as a dig to all those who "subsume everything to winning." Also to all those who think the nba is a microcosm of life. Of course it isn't. It's the difference between having youth and passion on the team at the expense of also having knuckleheads vs. having maturity and experience. It's the people who are OK with JO swaggering after a dunk vs the people who say "shut up and play."

    It's controlled vs. uncontrolled emotion. I wonder how many more championships IU and the Pacers could have with the controlled variety. It struck me last night as I watched the end of the ECF. We could have beaten both of those teams.

  8. #33
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    I'm thinkin foretaz is my frontrunner for rookie of the year 2006. Keep it up man. You basically are me if i was able to articulate my ideas. (even if it is big and purple)

  9. #34
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Every single poster on this board knows Ron Artest can play the game at a high level, that's not the debate. The guy has too many problems, and Peck did an excellent job of outlining those.

    The highlited is the debateable part. While you, along with many many others, may think that they are too many problems, others believe that he doesn't have the same problem twice. He's had quite a bit so far, so his options are getting very limited.

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    The highlited is the debateable part. While you, along with many many others, may think that they are too many problems, others believe that he doesn't have the same problem twice. He's had quite a bit so far, so his options are getting very limited.
    My thoughts. Thank you. Very succinct.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    The highlited is the debateable part. While you, along with many many others, may think that they are too many problems, others believe that he doesn't have the same problem twice. He's had quite a bit so far, so his options are getting very limited.
    Or that he's got so many problems that he never gets back to the previous problems.

    That's why I tend to think his problems fall into just a couple of categories. He can't handle pressure very well, and he doesn't submit himself to his coaches or teammates. Each individual occurence is just a manifestation of one (or more) of those two problems. I think the so-called anger management issus are just a subset of number 1, which could also be called, "His inability to keep his focus and composure when things aren't going 'his way'". So in that context, I'd say he does have the same problems over and over and over and over.

    As a microcosm, look at Game #6 of last year's ECFs. He skipped practice and a team flight, committed a foul that - with some good acting by Hamilton - made it easy for the officials to call a flagrant whether it was warranted or not, broke the gameplan numerous times, then complained to the press that the Pacers might've won if he were the #1 option. Each of those are different, yet they are all the same.

    I've seen him crumble under pressure too many times and too many different ways.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  12. #37
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    Peck Ė

    As one of the remaining Artest fans, Iíd say that I agree with everything youíve stated. I like what Artest can bring to a basketball court, and especially what his very diverse skills mean to our team. But, like you, I also despise some of his antics.

    The only issue you point out that I take exception to is #4.

    Issue # 4Ö

    Ron Artest can contribute to a title or to a great team, but he is not the end all be all of a team. If we cannot win a title without Ron Artest then there are serious flaws to our team. As has been pointed out by other posters, teams have won titles without Ron Artest being a member of that team.[I]

    On the surface, certainly this statement is accurate. I only wish it were that simple. But itís much more complex than that. Win a title without Artest? Sure, but how long will it take to re-fit the team to compensate his loss? And will the re-fitted team ever experience the window of opportunity that appears to be at hand right now?

    I believe your real point is basically a statement that no one player is more important than the team. And I respect that. But let me purse your words as written.

    GMs fit teams together, much like you and I assemble the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. A little bit of post play here, a couple of decent perimeter shooters there, a decent ball-handler/distributor, a lock-down defender over there. Maybe another guy that throws mean picks out on the floor. The individual pieces are rarely be-all, end-all players (as you would state), but together they do a decent job of compensating for each otherís weaknesses.

    The trouble is that, since each piece of the puzzle is unique in its own right, contributing its own set of skills to the mix, to maintain proper balance among the pieces, you find that you must also exchange some of the other pieces once you exchange the first piece.

    Does this make sense? Iím not saying that the Pacers are the best example of synergy that Iíve ever experienced, but they are ďsynergisticĒ none the less.

    Itís pretty obvious the problem that Bird and Walsh face. How can they replace Artestís man-on and team defensive abilities, his ability to post-up, his physical strength, his competitive edge, his shooting, hisÖ Well you get it. Your remove all that from the lineup in a single player, plug in a new player, and other pieces of the puzzle would most likely have to be exchanged to take up the slack.

    So what should Bird and Walsh do? Begin the retro-fit? Or do they roll the dice until the trade deadline next season to see how things are going, perhaps posturing the Pacers for a title run?

    Thatís really a tough decision, isnít it? You dump Artest, exchange a couple of more pieces and maybe your window of opportunity closes. You keep Artest, he possibly implodes again, and youíre basically dekcuf.

    On the one hand, if they can keep the wheels on Artestís wagon, Bird and Walsh know ďwhat they haveĒÖ a contender. They get rid of Artest and maybe another player or two, and donít really know for certain how the new pieces will mesh and what the end product will be.

    Which do you consider to be the greater risk? Because, I sure as hell donít know. I can only go by Larryís ongoing praise of Artest. But then again, is it genuine or posturing for equal value in a trade? I donít know.
    Beast, I think this is a great point. Once Brad Miller departed, this team was clearly designed around Ron's skills and the way Ron's skills complement JO's dominant post game. That's why - even last summer - I was an advocate that just subtracting Ron wasn't enough to solve the problem and keep us contenders. There was a thread last summer during the McGrady sweepstakes or perhaps when the Paul Pierce rumors were hot in which I said that all three SFs - Ron, Al, and Jon - needed to be traded last summer so the team could lessen re-balance its skills while remaining a contender. This team has a fundamental, and potentially fatal flaw because it depends on a player with Ron's skills in order to be contender, but there is no player in the league, including Ron, that can be counted on to consistently deliver Ron's skills.

    The question is always, ride it out and pray/ hope that Ron finally gets it and doesn't relapse at just the wrong time, or bite the bullet and re-build. Everyone knows where I've stood on this topic for a long, long time.

    I don't think I do a good enough job of making my frustrations clear sometimes. Ron does exactly what I expect him to - hurt the team. I am mad at DW and Bird for assembling a team that relies on him so much.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  13. #38
    foretaz
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Some of Ron Artest antics are just wrong. There is no other way to put it.

    Breaking things, cheap shoting players & breaking plays does not mean you are more competative.

    That is the one that gets me almost every time. Ron will do some boneheaded stunt & his fans will chime in with "Ronnie just hates to lose so bad"
    i agree one hundred percent...he has done many, many things that are just plain wrong...many of which were highly embarassing...to both himself as well as the pacers organization....and to make excuses in any way or to attempt to condone any of these actions in any way is ridiculous....

    i do believe ronnie is one of the most competitive individuals u will ever find-and u definitely want that in a player-but once again that is no excuse for bad behavior-NONE...
    i also think that the more intense a player is, the more apt he might be to 'lose it'...cause there is a very fine line between love and hate, good and evil....and i do believe that some of the things that enable ronnie to be such a great basketball player at times are the exact same things that cause him to do things that are simply reprehensible...one again-does this excuse it?? NOPE, certainly not

    i really think we are in agreement here...i really do...and its hard for me to believe that any person wouldnt be....but hey...nothing shocks me anymore...i suppose its possible that some thing this sort of behavior that he engages in from time to time is cool...lets face it...the world is full of people who find entertainment in highly questionable activities...so...who knows...


    In scholastic sporting events they would call this being a poor sport & in some cases where they actually cared about character they would remove the player from the situation for a time & if he didn't change they would remove him from the team.

    In public life we would call it criminal activity.
    its interesting that u bring up scholastic sports...theres more to that than u might think....and ur right...it could definitely be characterized as poor sportsmanship...and giving a youngster a timeout to help him learn to appreciate the gravity of the situation...you might say this is a key, since this is done early in a persons life to hopefully mold him into a person that doesnt continue that sort of behavior as he goes on in life...and yes...if that youngster doesnt respond in the right way-there are instances where that player might be removed....however...i would tell u that this rarely, and i do mean rarely ever happens...because the whole idea is to train, educate, and make that person better....simply casting that problem aside doesnt do the individual much good or the society that he then is cast into....

    as far as it being criminal activity.....possibly...once again...in rare instances....though this comment strikes me as being a bit embellished in order to drive home the thought of just how despicable some of his actions are....breaking things and cheap shots, in rare instances could be criminal though highly unlikely....breaking plays...hardly criminal activity...proper behavior?? nope...but then again...i doubt there is an nba player alive that hasnt/doesnt break a play....once again i think this comment really points to a deeper issue and is much more about the behavioral pattern versus the actual act and whether its criminal like or not...
    ill once again say....his behavior issues that uve brought up and others that u havent are simply unacceptable...



    Let me use this as an example & trust me with Ron it's almost always the play I come back to.

    Andre Kirlenko has been toasting him all game & Ron is getting very frustrated with him so since he can't beat him on the court he intentionally steps behind AK47 & hits him in the back of the head as the guy is driving the lane & going up for a basket.

    Now translate that to real life & use this example. You are a widget salesman & you are pretty good at it. Then another widget salesman comes to your area & starts selling about the same as you do & then one day he goes ahead of you in the block & starts selling more. You wait as he is coming out of a house after a sale & you run up & wack him over the back of the head. Do you think you could claim to the Police officer responding that you just hated losing sales so bad that you just couldn't control yourself? I'm guessing it's not gonna fly.

    I'm not trying to compare the two btw, I'm just trying to point out that being competative does not give you an excuse for bad behavior.

    Ok, I've gone off track here. Let me see if I can save some of this.
    bad analogy...but then u basically say as much by the disclaimer 'I'm just trying to point out that being competative does not give you an excuse for bad behavior.'

    which i would note , is already developing into somewhat of a noteable pattern..

    as far as the incident itself goes....i always have a major problem when we decide why people do things....that we know what other people are thinking....in this case what a basketball player is thinking in the middle of a game....we simply cant know that...we may think we know that...but we dont...

    and i would tell u that the premise i mentioned earlier comes back into play here again...if...and i do mean if...someone doesnt like someone...are we gonna be very objective in what we might THINK that player is thinking....

    the whole notion to know why ron or any other player or human being does a certain act without having any knowledge of that situation other than what we are watching...well....i think u can begin to see where im going with this...as others have already done....a person who LIKES ron artest would probably have a much different take on what happened....

    heres my take on it....its the sort of play that happens in the NBA...none of us know why each specific instance takes place....you urself have said dale does things with an enforcer mentality sometimes...in the end its not really relevant why it takes place...not really-unless ur wanting to somehow make it relevant to another argument u want to validate-in this case not liking ron artest....it happens and there are rules in place regarding what will happen if this sort of action takes place...and ron, like many players(some of which u do like-dale davis, brad miller) have been disciplined for these sorts of actions....

    but these actions alone shouldnt be cause to condemn a player, because if so, ron would have a lot of company, a personal favorite or 2 of urs that i just mentioned would be joining him....

    and not that i should do this...but if brad miller does the same thing(and he has-dont shoot me im a purdue fan as well as a brad miller fan)to ak47 that ron did, how would u react??? nevermind...i only try to make the poiint that our personal feelings and mindset go along way in determing how we view these things....

    i will say this....if ur looking for reasons to not like ron artest...it wont be hard...i dont think the one that u just mentioned is a very good one....but there are many others that i would wholeheartedly agree with u on....ron has given anyone who wants to not like him more than enuff ammunition...no question...jay put up a list that im sure has been used quite often-plane issues-other things that we will get into more down this posts line...suffice it to say...i have zero problem believing theres not ample evidence to support rons behavior being very very inexcusable at times..



    A lot of my problem with Ron isn't always Ron. It's fans who under normal circumstances would rebuke a player like him if he were on another team.

    If it's wrong for Rasheed Wallace to do something doesn't mean that if Rasheed Wallace became a Pacer it would make it ok for him to do the same thing. Right & wrong does not change with a uniform color.

    He has a fanatical fan base on here & on the internet in general & sometimes it's like you have assulted the Pope if you make a comment about him that does not portray Ron as either a hero or a victim.

    Ok that takes care of a lot of that, on here anyway, I sometimes try & compensate for the over abundance of praise for him. I'm not just being contrarian for no reason however because I truely am not a fan of his.
    ahhhhhhhhh....the fan part of all of this....very, very intriquing part to this whole drama....and im gonna go much more in detail about some of this in my aforementioned piece im gonna do regarding the FAN....

    there are a couple of types of fans....this is a pacers fan site...not a ron artest fan site...not a jo fan site...not a rasheed wallace fan site....

    and theres a certain part of me that believes a lot of what u say regarding ron and his behavior would be much more relevant(not to say its irrelevant) if this were a strictly ron artest fan site....but its not....yes...ron plays for the pacers...but i cant speak for u...but im a PACERS fan first and foremost...not a fan of any player first....i love dale davis...already said so...i loved darnell hillman....when some of these players we love go other places, we still follow them because we are a fan of that player....it only stands to reason we probably wont love or be fans of every player on the team....however, i do feel a certain obligation(many will disagree, i know) regarding the players i dont care for....like austin for one...

    the issue then becomes quite similar to a pistons fan coming to the pacers board-as which some do....its a confrontation waiting to happen...its really unavoidable....and sooner or later it will happen if two people are talking and one likes anything and one doesnt...
    the interesting dynamic to all of this is when u have fans of the same team who have differing viewpoints of the same player....which too, is unavoidable....you loved brad miller from what i can tell...u love david harrison from what i can tell...u love dale davis from what i can tell...well all it takes is one person to not agree...and they will have their own reasons which they feel are just as valid as u do for liking or disliking....

    u bring up sheed....sheed has a huge following...and a huge group of 'haters' as well....and the more controversial a player or human being is, the more passionate that debate between lovers and haters can be....but lets not shy away from the real issue...

    sheed has, like artest, done many things that are simply reprehensible....and now i will interject a new piece of info....there is hardly a player in the nba or a human being in general that hasnt....i could give u a list of things reggie miller has done that u could say the same thing about....but u already probably know them....and then a new debate takes place...that they arent as bad..or this...or that...it doesnt matter...its once againn about the mindset u go into something with....

    and u made it clear...ur not a fan of artest...and we know...and thats very very telliing...because what it says is...really...he will never get the benefit of the doubt from u....that goes true in anything in life....if we dont like something....we are as much sayiing we are prejudiced towards that subject....im sorry if u dont like hearing that...but thats the way that it is...and i think u know it....we can say that though we dont like something we can be objective.....hmmmmm....now just how hypocritical and naive is that statement when u really stop and look at it....

    the only other thing i would like to emphasize is this....whether its the team or the teams fans....any time something becomes more about the player than the team...theres gonna be a problem...which is what many of u that have a certain disdain for ron are constantly harping on-he brings down the team with his actions....well the same goes true on this board....and while its unavoidable to talk about individual players....its also not gonna be very constructive for the team if certain dislikes regarding certain players keep becoming the focal point-whether in the locker room or on this board....

    i hear u though...loud and clear...ur not a fan of rons...and u have a lot of reasons why-all related to his behavior....

  14. #39
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Or that he's got so many problems that he never gets back to the previous problems.
    Caught in my own web.


    Jay, and Peck and DD for that matter, I've got a hypothetical question for you and it's out of me just wondering, I'm not looking to hold it against you if everything shakes out. How many years of near perfect behavior does it take to make you quit holding your breath in regards to Ron, if ever? I'll be perfectly honest, when it comes to Ben Wallace I don't care what he does, I'm ALWAYS going to dislike him even if he forsome God forsaken reason becomes a Pacer. Would there ever be a time that you support him on an individual level, instead of a Pacer level, I guess is what I'm really asking?

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Fortaz....

    I'm at work right now so I will not be able to give you a thought out response to what you are saying right now. I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you, so please keep putting down your thoughts on this & I will get back to you tonight when I get home.

    You'll see me on here throuthout the day with shorter posts but I'm not even gonna try right now responding to these because short thought on my part aren't going to work for me.

    Keep'em coming & I'll get back to you.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Caught in my own web.


    Jay, and Peck and DD for that matter, I've got a hypothetical question for you and it's out of me just wondering, I'm not looking to hold it against you if everything shakes out. How many years of near perfect behavior does it take to make you quit holding your breath in regards to Ron, if ever? I'll be perfectly honest, when it comes to Ben Wallace I don't care what he does, I'm ALWAYS going to dislike him even if he forsome God forsaken reason becomes a Pacer. Would there ever be a time that you support him on an individual level, instead of a Pacer level, I guess is what I'm really asking?
    The Diamond one will be gone for the next two weeks so he won't be able to respond.

    As to me?

    I'll be honest I don't know when it would be for me to not "hold my breath" with him.

    But I'll give you this. If he can give me one solid year of no disruptions & by that I mean team disruptions as well as on court disruptions then I'll back way down.

    But I'll still be cautious.

    What choice do I have? If the team either can't or won't trade him then that pretty much sticks me with hoping that he changes.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Fortaz....

    I'm at work right now so I will not be able to give you a thought out response to what you are saying right now. I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you, so please keep putting down your thoughts on this & I will get back to you tonight when I get home.

    You'll see me on here throuthout the day with shorter posts but I'm not even gonna try right now responding to these because short thought on my part aren't going to work for me.

    Keep'em coming & I'll get back to you.
    trust me...i understand....look forward to it...

  18. #43
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Caught in my own web.


    Jay, and Peck and DD for that matter, I've got a hypothetical question for you and it's out of me just wondering, I'm not looking to hold it against you if everything shakes out. How many years of near perfect behavior does it take to make you quit holding your breath in regards to Ron, if ever? I'll be perfectly honest, when it comes to Ben Wallace I don't care what he does, I'm ALWAYS going to dislike him even if he forsome God forsaken reason becomes a Pacer. Would there ever be a time that you support him on an individual level, instead of a Pacer level, I guess is what I'm really asking?
    I'd like to believe that - if given a fresh start somewhere else - Ron could get it turned around. He's teased us before. In fact, publicly he looked to be really close to getting it during the 2003-04 season, but there were always rumors that it wasn't so good behind the scenes even when the Pacers were winning and then it all came crashing back to earth in the playoffs and continued to get worse throughout the offseason and the first month of this season.

    I used to say that if he went an entire season with maturity and composure (I'm not even talking about flagrants, because those are going to happen from time-to-time) that I'd at least be convinced he was 'capable' of getting it.

    I think that's about right - if he can go from training camp through the end of the season without causing any major disruptions and a negligible number of minor disruptions (both publicly and behind the scenes) then I'll start to lighten up on him. But I'll admit that there are also days when I think it will take him at least five seasons without a disruption to earn my trust.

    I just think there's a 0.000000000% chance that we'll ever have to worry about it.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    I didn't even expect the one year thing. I expected atleast two minimium, and I'm even labeled as an 'apologist' geez I hate that word.

  20. #45

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I'd like to believe that - if given a fresh start somewhere else - Ron could get it turned around. He's teased us before. In fact, publicly he looked to be really close to getting it during the 2003-04 season, but there were always rumors that it wasn't so good behind the scenes even when the Pacers were winning and then it all came crashing back to earth in the playoffs and continued to get worse throughout the offseason and the first month of this season.

    I used to say that if he went an entire season with maturity and composure (I'm not even talking about flagrants, because those are going to happen from time-to-time) that I'd at least be convinced he was 'capable' of getting it.

    I think that's about right - if he can go from training camp through the end of the season without causing any major disruptions and a negligible number of minor disruptions (both publicly and behind the scenes) then I'll start to lighten up on him. But I'll admit that there are also days when I think it will take him at least five seasons without a disruption to earn my trust.

    I just think there's a 0.000000000% chance that we'll ever have to worry about it.
    Out of curiousity, would this be for any player, or just Ron? For example, say like Rasheed came here and pulled consistantly all of his antics from Portland. If he says he would quit, would you still hold the same standard you do for Ron, or is Ron just that bad of a case for you?
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  21. #46
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Can't speak for Peck but what it really boils down to, IMO, is, "Can he handle the pressure of the playoffs."

    • vs. NJ - hard to tell, he wasn't one of our main players yet.
    • vs. Boston in 2003 - no. But in hindsight, it might've solved a few of our problems if Mel Daniels had just given him a thorough asskicking in the tunnel for everyone to see.
    • vs. Boston in 2004 - yes, but it was a cakewalk.
    • vs. Miami in 2004 - he played well, feasting on JO's tablescraps because Miami put all thier defensive effort into shutting down JO and let Ron do whatever he wanted; but he had to be forced onto the team plane after one loss. One could argue that Miami's gameplan kicked Ron's ego into overdrive - he appeared to be playing at a high level since Miami didn't focus on him and then when Detroit played JO straight-up in the next series, things didn't go well for the Ron.
    • vs. Detroit in 2004 - his play was up-and-down, and we've all spent a lot of time harping on his meltdowns before and during Game #6.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  22. #47
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    Out of curiousity, would this be for any player, or just Ron? For example, say like Rasheed came here and pulled consistantly all of his antics from Portland. If he says he would quit, would you still hold the same standard you do for Ron, or is Ron just that bad of a case for you?
    I'm not sure I get your question.

    I've generally liked 'Sheed more than many of you. I'll acknowledge, of course, that he has had major problems with referrees and was in a bad situation in Portland. But when I think of 'Sheed, I still think of the Rasheed Wallace from about 1998 - 2000 in Portland, playing with Brian Grant and Arvyddas Sabonas. Man, I loved that three-man rotation in the frontcourt. It really wasn't an insult to JO that he couldn't get any minutes, that was real depth. At that time, I felt that - even though he got a lot of technicals - that it didn't usually hurt his game and his teammates still believed in him. But that situation admittedly continued to get worse over time.

    I've always thought that the Rasheed that many of you ***** about was a byproduct of a bad environment, and a franchise that enabled him to get out of control in the early 2000s.

    But I've also always thought the Sprewell incident was very specific to a toxic relationship between PJ and Spree. Those of us that were already Spree fans saw something bad coming - Spree was desparate to get out and was openly begging opposing GMs and coaches to trade for him during games. He'd walk up to the oppenent's bench during FTs and beg them to trade for him just to get away from PJ. Sure he still says and does some stupid stuff, but this was also a guy that did everything JVG ever asked him to do and was generally highly regarded by his Knicks' teammates.

    So its not like I don't have any tolerance for *occasional* flareups or "bad boys."

    So I guess the answer to your question is that I see Ron's problems as being far worse than other notorious players like 'Sheed and Spree. I don't think 'Sheed, Spree, or other notorious all-star caliber players have ever been benched for "conduct detrimental to winning." - Rick's words, not mine.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    So I guess the answer to your question is that I see Ron's problems as being far worse than other notorious players like 'Sheed and Spree. I don't think 'Sheed, Spree, or other notorious all-star caliber players have ever been benched for "conduct detrimental to winning." - Rick's words, not mine.

    Are you sure it wasn't "to the team?" To add on to that, what was the word that he said he didn't know the meaning of, and that he was going to ask his dad?

  24. #49
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    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    What about Sheed going after the referree in the parking garage after a game and threatening to kill him. Isn't that worse than anything Ron has done since he's been a member of the Pacers.

    Does Artest not get any credit for working on his game. His improvement since his Bulls days or even since his first year or so as a Pacer has been nothing short of remarkable. He has made himself a star player. What does that show us about his character. Many of you seem to be saying well yes Ron is a great talent, but he was always a great talent, No he wasn't.

    Now I'm going to stop right now, because I'm starting to get fired up.

  25. #50

    Default Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I'm not sure I get your question.

    I've generally liked 'Sheed more than many of you. I'll acknowledge, of course, that he has had major problems with referrees and was in a bad situation in Portland. But when I think of 'Sheed, I still think of the Rasheed Wallace from about 1998 - 2000 in Portland, playing with Brian Grant and Arvyddas Sabonas. Man, I loved that three-man rotation in the frontcourt. It really wasn't an insult to JO that he couldn't get any minutes, that was real depth. At that time, I felt that - even though he got a lot of technicals - that it didn't usually hurt his game and his teammates still believed in him. But that situation admittedly continued to get worse over time.

    I've always thought that the Rasheed that many of you ***** about was a byproduct of a bad environment, and a franchise that enabled him to get out of control in the early 2000s.

    But I've also always thought the Sprewell incident was very specific to a toxic relationship between PJ and Spree. Those of us that were already Spree fans saw something bad coming - Spree was desparate to get out and was openly begging opposing GMs and coaches to trade for him during games. He'd walk up to the oppenent's bench during FTs and beg them to trade for him just to get away from PJ. Sure he still says and does some stupid stuff, but this was also a guy that did everything JVG ever asked him to do and was generally highly regarded by his Knicks' teammates.

    So its not like I don't have any tolerance for *occasional* flareups or "bad boys."

    So I guess the answer to your question is that I see Ron's problems as being far worse than other notorious players like 'Sheed and Spree. I don't think 'Sheed, Spree, or other notorious all-star caliber players have ever been benched for "conduct detrimental to winning." - Rick's words, not mine.
    Sorry that question was a bit confusing, but you answered it anyway. The thing I was trying to figure out was whether it was just Ron that made you unhappy, or if anyone else, put into a similar situation as Ron has been put into, would make you feel a little better/worse about a situation.

    For instance, I think that some of the stuff other people do are far worse than what Ron has done, and had they done something of the sort here in Indiana, I would be far more upset. Such as drugs, assult, and all the other crap that goes on in the league (actually, the things going on with the 2 Colts players). Had someone had done something like this on our team, would that still be not as bad as Ron? I guess you might consider it an "occasional flareup", but to me, that is more serious than the things that Ron has done.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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