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Thread: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    If Jay got a chance in Indiana, I think that would give us the flexibility to include AJ in any deal we make. I'd love to see AJ gone.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    I think Houston is the best bet, as they are pitiful at the PG position. They're a contender that's a piece and/or a year away, and he'd get quality PT trying to help them get over the hump.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    First let me say, foretaz, there is good purple and bad purple. This is good purple.

    Right before the motorcycle accident there were a few rumors about the pacers perhaps trying to get Williams. And I was excited then and I'm excited now. What do we have to lose.

    I like his game, except free throws, but I'm guessing he has shot a ton of free throws during his rehab

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Would a two-year deal for the minimum do it? We'll be splitting the MLE between Dale and JJ...
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  5. #30
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Would a two-year deal for the minimum do it? We'll be splitting the MLE between Dale and JJ...
    unless im badly mistaken, which i dont think i am, we dont have to use the MLE to resign jj.....

  6. #31
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    unless im badly mistaken, which i dont think i am, we dont have to use the MLE to resign jj.....
    I think you're mistaken.

    You don't think JJ will command more than 2mil/year?
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  7. #32
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Can someone refresh my memory - what did Jay Williams bring to the table?
    "If you ever crawl inside an old hollow log and go to sleep, and while you're in there some guys come and seal up both ends and then put it on a truck and take it to another city, boy, I don't know what to tell you." - Jack Handy

  8. #33
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    I think you're mistaken.

    You don't think JJ will command more than 2mil/year?
    actually im pretty sure we can resign him for anything up to the league average without effecting the mle...why do u mention the 2 million figure? i think i saw the league average is around 5 million...

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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    vet's minimum is projected to be around 2mil/year.

    There's uncertainty among us armchair GMs, but since the Pacers are (1) over the cap and (2) don't have Bird rights to JJ since he hasn't played for them for three seasons, many of believe they can use the vet's minimum exception ($2 million) or split the MLE among JJ and DD to re-sign our FAs.

    Has anyone submitted this question to Conrad yet? I've heard someone try to explain it, but I didn't understand the explanation. And I haven't done any work for a sports team since I left KennywaterhouseCoopers a couple of years ago, so I'm a little out-of-practice on that.

    Also Jacksevicious (sp? - whatever) would be part of either the vet's minimum (unlikely) or the MLE. Same for Jay Williams.

    Bottom line: we're over the cap, signing FAs is going to be difficult.
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  10. #35
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    vet's minimum is projected to be around 2mil/year.

    There's uncertainty among us armchair GMs, but since the Pacers are (1) over the cap and (2) don't have Bird rights to JJ since he hasn't played for them for three seasons, many of believe they can use the vet's minimum exception ($2 million) or split the MLE among JJ and DD to re-sign our FAs.

    Has anyone submitted this question to Conrad yet? I've heard someone try to explain it, but I didn't understand the explanation. And I haven't done any work for a sports team since I left KennywaterhouseCoopers a couple of years ago, so I'm a little out-of-practice on that.

    Also Jacksevicious (sp? - whatever) would be part of either the vet's minimum (unlikely) or the MLE. Same for Jay Williams.

    Bottom line: we're over the cap, signing FAs is going to be difficult.
    because jj has played for the pacers for 2 years i believe the pacers have 'early bird rights' meaning he can be signed for up to the league average...the league average i believe is just a shade under 5 million....

  11. #36
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    what im most curious about is what kind of money dale will be signed for....i have to believe they had some sort of preliminary discussions when he first came here....and im just dying to know what type of number that is gonna be...from a selfish standpoint id love to see him play for the vet minimum for hisyears of service...however im not sure how fair that actually would be...but who knows....i love dale...and think hes gonna be a major asset next year...

  12. #37

    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Let him have Greg Grant's spot

  13. #38
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    actually im pretty sure we can resign him for anything up to the league average without effecting the mle...why do u mention the 2 million figure? i think i saw the league average is around 5 million...
    I didn't read your old posts because of the font, but what's your excuse for not reading mine? I already explained once and Jay did as well... we'd have to split the MLE between JJ and Dale.

    Players coming out of second-round contracts don't have early bird rights. I can't find this in Coon's FAQ, but it's borne out by history. The Spurs were forced to use their MLE to sign Ginobli. The MLE was all the Warriors had to offer Arenas. The MLE was all the Cavs had to offer Boozer.

    The playoffs pushed Dale's value down and JJ's value up. Our best chance of keeping both of them is to split the MLE between them. That leaves us only the veteran's minimum to play with, which we can throw at a player like Jay Williams. That's a lot of new salary for a team close to the luxury tax, so it's imperative that we move Croshere and Bender for ending contracts. We need the space.
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  14. #39
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    It gets tiresome to repeat it over and over and at least directs uncertainty, but let me set you assuredly aside: we DO ahve the so-called "Early Bird" rights to James Jones, which in effect makes him a restricted fere agent.

    For proof: http://probasketball.about.com/od/ne...agents05_3.htm
    (heck he's listed #6 on desirable (SF) free agents this year, that in itself is BAD news though.

    and of course the spot of text pasting:

    (2) Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent (“Early Bird”) Exception.
    A team may re-sign its own free agent for the greater of (a) 175% of the player’s salary in the last season of his prior contract, or (b) the average player salary, if he played for the team for some or all of each of the prior two consecutive seasons (or, if he changed teams, he did so by trade). A contract signed using the Early Bird Exception must be for at least two seasons.

    see http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-salary-exceptions.shtml

    in short: we have the MLE available for DD and who ever else we want to give it to, IF we want to give it to anyone and even full if DD signs for the Vet min.
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    The only useful thing I can really find in Croon's CBA FAQ is that Early Bird rights are much weaker than Bird rights. Its a longshot - not because of the CBA but because of JJ's rising stock and the Pacers' current salary structure.

    Let's put it this way, if JJ commands the average salary (and he might, especially once Miami gets into the bidding), then with the Pacers publicly committed to paying Reggie's salary, there's no way they can afford to sign JJ, DD and either PG (Williams or Jackevious - sp? whatever) without dumping salaries for next season (which is not the same as trading for expiring contracts.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #41
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    It gets tiresome to repeat it over and over and at least directs uncertainty, but let me set you assuredly aside: we DO ahve the so-called "Early Bird" rights to James Jones, which in effect makes him a restricted fere agent.

    For proof: http://probasketball.about.com/od/ne...agents05_3.htm
    (heck he's listed #6 on desirable (SF) free agents this year, that in itself is BAD news though.

    and of course the spot of text pasting:

    (2) Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent (“Early Bird”) Exception.
    A team may re-sign its own free agent for the greater of (a) 175% of the player’s salary in the last season of his prior contract, or (b) the average player salary, if he played for the team for some or all of each of the prior two consecutive seasons (or, if he changed teams, he did so by trade). A contract signed using the Early Bird Exception must be for at least two seasons.

    see http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-salary-exceptions.shtml

    in short: we have the MLE available for DD and who ever else we want to give it to, IF we want to give it to anyone and even full if DD signs for the Vet min.
    yea...im not sure where all the confusion comes from...the fact that u signed a first round, second round or free agent contract has no bearing on ur status....its strictly years played....

    our main issues are with our high payroll and luxury tax issues if we do utilize the MLE....and a guaranteed 1st round pick...and DD if he would happen to be separate from the MLE by playing for vet min-which i just cant really see...

  17. #42
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    The only useful thing I can really find in Croon's CBA FAQ is that Early Bird rights are much weaker than Bird rights. Its a longshot - not because of the CBA but because of JJ's rising stock and the Pacers' current salary structure.

    Let's put it this way, if JJ commands the average salary (and he might, especially once Miami gets into the bidding), then with the Pacers publicly committed to paying Reggie's salary, there's no way they can afford to sign JJ, DD and either PG (Williams or Jackevious - sp? whatever) without dumping salaries for next season (which is not the same as trading for expiring contracts.)
    the reason they are weaker is because the pacers can only pay up to the average salary-about 5 million/year....if a team would choose to go above that and offer him a max contract or close to max contract for his years served...well the pacers would be out in the cold...

    however if any team does that, i say wouldve love to have ya-but good luck in _______...

    i would say anything more than about 3million and its time to let him go....he still is what he is....a 2 year bench player that possesses some skills....u cant go paying him what jack and jamaal are making-at least u could argue that u shouldnt...

    the point is jj's contract is only gonna affect the overall payroll and luxury tax issues....not our ability to use the MLE...and the same goes with reggies contract....both of these affect the total payroll only....and when u start looking at that-its a bit out of control....and theres no relief in sight as long as we have crosheres and benders contract for the next two years....those are the problems as everyone knows...

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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    JJ doesn't have Bird rights. He has something far weaker, an "Early Bird" rights, but those require a multi-year deal so they are rarely used. If JJ signs a one-year deal with the Pacers, then he would have full "Bird rights" afterwords. As for this summer, if he gets any offer more than the average we can't match it. And if the offer is less than the average, we may not choose to match it on a multi-year basis.

    The confusion also comes from the idea that if JJ is signed for up to the average salary, what happens to the MLE? But this is moot, because if the Pacers sign JJ for the average salary, they probably aren't going to use thier MLE.

    I look for the Pacers to draft a SF in the second round, and let JJ walk so they've got enough maneuverability to make a play at Jestervisious (sp? - whatever). I think DD will just get whatever is left over after Jerryavisious (sp? - whatever) is signed.

    Look at Boozer, Arenas, etc. This situation almost never works out for the team that drafts a second-rounder that becomes a contributor.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  19. #44
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    What I don't understand is why didn't the Pacers management put the third-year option in the contract with JJ. The did that with Brewer.

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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fig Newton
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    If Jay got a chance in Indiana, I think that would give us the flexibility to include AJ in any deal we make. I'd love to see AJ gone.
    To be honest, so would I. I don't dislike AJ, I just think we can do better. If Jay comes here Ill be happy no doubt.

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    JJ doesn't have Bird rights. He has something far weaker, an "Early Bird" rights, but those require a multi-year deal so they are rarely used. If JJ signs a one-year deal with the Pacers, then he would have full "Bird rights" afterwords. As for this summer, if he gets any offer more than the average we can't match it. And if the offer is less than the average, we may not choose to match it on a multi-year basis.

    The confusion also comes from the idea that if JJ is signed for up to the average salary, what happens to the MLE? But this is moot, because if the Pacers sign JJ for the average salary, they probably aren't going to use thier MLE.

    I look for the Pacers to draft a SF in the second round, and let JJ walk so they've got enough maneuverability to make a play at Jestervisious (sp? - whatever). I think DD will just get whatever is left over after Jerryavisious (sp? - whatever) is signed.

    Look at Boozer, Arenas, etc. This situation almost never works out for the team that drafts a second-rounder that becomes a contributor.
    im not sure...but i think u might be missing something...if not, then i apologize

    the reason early bird rights arent usually used is because the players uve mentioned could all get more than the nba average at that time....

    i dont see jj as being that player...i dont see him commanding more than 5 million a year to start with for a multiple year contract....in other words i dont see someone giving him a 30-40 million dollar contract....

    i think it would be somewhat reasonable to sign jj for a total contract somewhere around 3 years and 12 million total....if he gets much more than that on the open market...then i think u let him walk....the other players that u mention were in a far different situation for what they commanded...

    maybe im grossly undervaluing jj...so we will see...bottom line is we could offer him or match a contract as high as about 4 years and 23 million and i just dont see him getting that on the open market...i really dont...

  22. #47
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Players coming out of second-round contracts don't have early bird rights. I can't find this in Coon's FAQ, but it's borne out by history. The Spurs were forced to use their MLE to sign Ginobli. The MLE was all the Warriors had to offer Arenas. The MLE was all the Cavs had to offer Boozer.
    Somebody explain why the Spurs had to use the MLE to sign Ginobli if they had his early bird rights.

    The kind of contract you sign DOES matter.
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  23. #48
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Somebody explain why the Spurs had to use the MLE to sign Ginobli if they had his early bird rights.

    The kind of contract you sign DOES matter.
    ok...its quite simple...and i believe uve gotten some bad information

    the spurs didnt use the MLE on manu...

    the spurs were under the cap....

    they signed manu to a free agent contract...and even though they had his early bird rights...they were able to pay him more than the MLE and more than the average salary(which would be using his early bird rights) because they were under the cap...and therefore could sign him to a contract within the paramaters of a player with 2 years played....

    which is exactly what another team under the cap could do with jj...they could sign him for more than the average salary(approx 5 million) which in turn we wouldnt be able to match that...

    that being said...i highly doubt that happens...i just cant see anyone offering him that kind of money...

    which is more likely is someone offering him somewhere around the 3-5 million a year over a period of time and then us having to decide to match that based on his value and our payroll problems..

    hope this helps...

  24. #49
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    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    AJ was VERY good the end of season and playoffs. There's no guarentee that EITHER of those guys would be better, especially their first season. Hell, there's no guarentee that either will ever be better. We have no idea how healthy JW REALLY is. or if he'll hold up once he starts playing every day.

  25. #50

    Default Re: Jay Williams wants to play for the Pacers among other teams?

    You don't have to use your MLE to re-sign your own players. But if you are over the cap you can only match an offer up to the MLE level for 2nd round draft choices.

    If JJ wants to stay with the Pacers all he has to do is sign a deal with the Pacers for like 5 yrs/25 million without testing the market or signing an offer sheet with another team. His agent might tell him to test the market though. The Pacers could give him that money and still use their MLE to sign a free agent if they are willing to increase their overall payroll.

    The Boozer situation was that the Cavs had a team option for an extra year with Boozer making his original salary I guess about 300k per season. They dropped that final year in good faith even though they could have forced him to play for the 300k with the understanding that Boozer would just re-sign with them for about the MLE but Boozer instead of just re-signing went out and got an offer from the Jazz that the Cavs couldn't match.

    I don't think the Pacers have to worry about losing Jones. There aren't many teams with cap space and how many of them are going to throw 6-7 million per year at Jones? Also the select few teams with cap space might already be stacked at the 3 spot like Atlanta. JJ wouldn't start on Atlanta with Childress and Josh Smith so there is now way they offer him 6-7 million to come off their bench.

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