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Thread: A draft question about position....

  1. #26
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Still even IF that would happen, Foretaz, who backs up Tins THIS year. We are talking quite some minutes here, not 5 or 6 minutes a game I think and I don't think Freddie is ready or capeable (sp?) of doing that. And even if Freddie is ready for that back up role at the start of the season ... I would still be quite worried about him beying figured out, never mind how many minutes he would have to log if SJax were to get an injury that would take him out for say 3-4 weeks.

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  2. #27
    foretaz
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning
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    Still even IF that would happen, Foretaz, who backs up Tins THIS year. We are talking quite some minutes here, not 5 or 6 minutes a game I think and I don't think Freddie is ready or capeable (sp?) of doing that. And even if Freddie is ready for that back up role at the start of the season ... I would still be quite worried about him beying figured out, never mind how many minutes he would have to log if SJax were to get an injury that would take him out for say 3-4 weeks.

    Regards,

    Mourning

    sorry...i just realized u posted something similar a bit ago...anyway

    i think i stated in another thread a little bout how i feel about the point guard slot....that we need an upgrade at the backup slot...and that freddie should be the emergency 3rd point guard...dont need gill...a player like gill can be had at anytime if one of the first two go down for any extended period of time...even eddie could probably be picked up again...theres just alot of guys out there similar if not better than gill that are always available...

    now..as far as who that backup is....ive got a couple of ideas...i dont think that guy will be had in the draft-obviously not in this potential scenario we are discussing....

    i have a sneaky suspicion that jasikevicous might appear here...he just strikes me as someone that bird might indeed pursue rather aggressively...i dont know if he warrants the MLE....but who knows...ill wait and see and trust their judgement...

    a person i think would be absolutely perfect would be bobby jackson....and hes probably not impossible to get....not unlike some of our fans, some kings fans are a little fed up with his injury bug and the constant question as to whether he would be available....his contract is way under his value and will he will be in the final year of it as well...

    it would be a risk...obviously...and u could argue that u dont want a guy like that backing up tins....but i dont happen to agree with most on tins durability...i think hes far more durable than people give him credit for....and i believe this last season was an exception and not the rule...prior to this season he was less injured than most would have u believe....he was benched for the first part of the season prior and therefore his games played were down dramatically...but had nothing to do with him being injured....if he gets his a$$ in tip top shape and is not forced into huge minutes i think he will be just fine...

  3. #28
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    To answer the original question,

    I'm torn between backup PF (if May is available I think they should take him so they have at least one player not named JO that can score in the post) and SG/SF. I think the need at SG/SF is more pressing, so perhaps the draft can't help there, but that's because I don't like our prospects while having a SJax/ Ron tandem at those positions.
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  4. #29
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Ok, still what IF your proposed Atlanta deal does go through (unlikely, but ok let's assume it does) ... then who do we trade away to get a new back up PG? I ask since obviously AJ is already gone by then and I take it you want to keep the core of JO, Ron, Sjax and Tins intact aswell (another assumption on my part).

    Pollard and Foster might be the only realistic selections here, I guess. Pollard because of his ending contract and Jeff because he DOES have good value in several areas.

    Would that be enough to get a high calibre back up PG that's as close as they come to beying a starting PG? Jeff might be, I don't think Pollard would do it though.

    About Tins, I don't think he is really injury prone, but I do think his minutes per game would have to be limited during the season this year as to maximize his effect for the playoffs. I view a healthy Tinsley as a vital ingredient for Pacers succes in the playoffs, I don't want him to break down comparably to Nash during his Maverick's days. That's why I want basically a 2nd starting calibre PG as a back up for us. I don't know if that's something realistic to want though.

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  5. #30
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    I feel that Tinsley broke down this year because of that huge load he had to carry when he was the only projected starter on the court. He played way more minutes that Carlisle would usually play him and he was handling the ball and going into the post much more than he usually would.

  6. #31
    foretaz
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning
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    Ok, still what IF your proposed Atlanta deal does go through (unlikely, but ok let's assume it does) ... then who do we trade away to get a new back up PG? I ask since obviously AJ is already gone by then and I take it you want to keep the core of JO, Ron, Sjax and Tins intact aswell (another assumption on my part).

    Pollard and Foster might be the only realistic selections here, I guess. Pollard because of his ending contract and Jeff because he DOES have good value in several areas.

    Would that be enough to get a high calibre back up PG that's as close as they come to beying a starting PG? Jeff might be, I don't think Pollard would do it though.

    About Tins, I don't think he is really injury prone, but I do think his minutes per game would have to be limited during the season this year as to maximize his effect for the playoffs. I view a healthy Tinsley as a vital ingredient for Pacers succes in the playoffs, I don't want him to break down comparably to Nash during his Maverick's days. That's why I want basically a 2nd starting calibre PG as a back up for us. I don't know if that's something realistic to want though.

    Regards,

    Mourning
    well if they acquire jasikevicous he is a free agent...noone would have to be let go....and i really believe they will use the MLE in some form to probably obtain this player....at least that would seem to be the most logical....

    as far as bobby jackson goes...my thought was involving aj in a trade for him...obviously this wont work with the proposed atlanta deal we are discussing...so....

    sac's most glaring needs appear to be at pf and sg....im just thinking here for a sec...so dont hold me to any of this....of course i would love a trade involving croshere....in fact he would probably be of a little interest to them if he were reasonably priced....but hes not...if they could trade bobby jackson for austin straight up-i wonder if they would do that...anyway i digress...

    it would probably have to then be either freddie or jeff....the inclination might be to try and trade freddie for jackson and then maybe try to obtain a backup sg for the MLE...or u might want to try and utilize jj at that spot some....im a huge bender fan(dont throw beer at me please), so if by some chance he could play this year he would make the backup roles so much easier as he can play any of 3 positions though ideally suited for one of the forward slots....

    who knows...u might even be able to take a look at a sign and trade of songaila(sp?) along with b. jackson....songaila is kinda a poor mans brad miller ....decent shooter with similar range to brad...id love to package croshere but i know im dreaming....

    again these are just thoughts....just a process

  7. #32
    foretaz
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersFan
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    I feel that Tinsley broke down this year because of that huge load he had to carry when he was the only projected starter on the court. He played way more minutes that Carlisle would usually play him and he was handling the ball and going into the post much more than he usually would.

    yup...i feel to try and judge anyone by this season is just a little nuts...you can glean some things for it....but the more u play...especially if u come back to early from injuries/surgery ur much more susceptible to injury/reinjury...

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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    I view some of our more important priorities for NEXT season as:

    1. PF / C to relieve defensive pressure on JO
    2a. Perimeter defense Ė PG / SG
    2b. Perimeter shooting Ė PG / SG
    4. Improve overall FG%
    5. Improve RB%

    Barring a second consecutive season from hell, I canít fathom any rookie being acquired at position #17 that will get the opportunity to contribute at PF/C. Therefore, our most pressing need for next season cannot be resolved through the draft.

    However, I do believe that a role player, specialist with maybe only one decent skill, might be acquired with pick #17 to help with perimeter defense OR perimeter shooting. We wonít acquire a player with both skills at #17, because an all-around player with both skills would be drafted much higher.

    So, I think if we are lucky, we might be able to acquire a guard that is an extremely good defender at #17. We need a defensive stopper that we can insert during an important stretch in games to help close down an opponentís scoring run. Ron, Jax, JJ and Freddie are all decent defenders, but none of them can stay with the leagues quicker guards. Itís time we acquired someone who can, because if Miami acquires a couple more players, they will be the team to beat in the east and IMO, slowing down Wade is the way to beat the Heat.

    Alternatively, we could use a lights-out shooter, even if he canít play a lick of defense. We are very week at going for the juggler when we have an opponent down, and a perimeter shooting specialist used for 3-4 minutes near the end of a half might make the difference between being up by 7-8 at the end of either the 2nd or 3rd quarters and possibly being up by 15. Insert him into the lineup, and try to get him 3-4 shots over the last 3-4 minutes of the quarter.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Beast, I take it that you don't think Sean May is ready to play 8-12 mpg as JO's backup, or do you think he won't be around at #17?

    Anyone, if you think Sean May is ready to play 8-12 mpg as JO's backup, would you also consider moving up a few spots to do so? I thinking similar terms to when we moved up a few spots to grab Foster - a future lottery protected first rounder.

    Further, how high do you think we'd have to move to get him?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  10. #35
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Beast, I take it that you don't think Sean May is ready to play 8-12 mpg as JO's backup, or do you think he won't be around at #17?

    Anyone, if you think Sean May is ready to play 8-12 mpg as JO's backup, would you also consider moving up a few spots to do so? I thinking similar terms to when we moved up a few spots to grab Foster - a future lottery protected first rounder.

    Further, how high do you think we'd have to move to get him?
    Notwithstanding that I think we need a 5, not a 4, I think May should go in the top 7 and certainly won't drop below 10.

    Considering we would likely have to trade a starter to trade up that far, I don't think it is worth it to do so. I'd be very afraid that in a few years we'd lose May the same way we had to lose Al, because he's too good to come off the bench but not good enough to start over JO.
    BillS

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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    We've seen several mock drafts with him at #17 or below, or has his stock been rising again? I can't keep up with the number of mock drafts these days.

    I agree that I wouldn't move up to the top-ten for him, but then again I see him as a sixth man and I think if a team sees him as a starter they're repeating the same mistakes the Bulls made when they took Scott at #2.

    EDIT - Bill, have you given up on Harrison?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  12. #37
    foretaz
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    when having this discussion i only would ask that u remember these two words...

    marcus fizer...

    and i really dont think u will have to move up much, if at all, if ur picking 17 and u want may....

  13. #38
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Marcus Fizer - at one time - would've been a fine sixth man. Playing for the Terri-Bulls really did him in.

    Nobody believes that the Pacers are going to find an impact player at #17 in any draft, but finding thier perfect sixth man to complement JO & Co. would be a fine move if he's there (or if you only have to move up to #14 or so to get him.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  14. #39
    foretaz
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Marcus Fizer - at one time - would've been a fine sixth man. Playing for the Terri-Bulls really did him in.

    Nobody believes that the Pacers are going to find an impact player at #17 in any draft, but finding thier perfect sixth man to complement JO & Co. would be a fine move if he's there (or if you only have to move up to #14 or so to get him.)
    i understand....and agree it would be a steal to find such a player at that position....i just happen to be of the very strong opinion that may isnt that guy...

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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    i understand....and agree it would be a steal to find such a player at that position....i just happen to be of the very strong opinion that may isnt that guy...
    Care to tell us why?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #41
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    actually u might have missed part of it....the idea was to trade our first round pick this year and our first round pick next year in addition to aj for atlantas 1st round pick next year...

    so basically we swap places with atlanta next year and for that they get aj and our number 17 pick this year...as i said earlier...i doubt they would do it...but hey...

    the only possible rationale atlanta might have for doing it( i always hate this type of thought-where im telling someone else why they should do what i want them to do) is they are short on bodies....they dont have many decent players under contract let alone a veteran point guard....they appear to be going to draft a point guard of the future so in that case their might be a case made for aj being a decent guy to have around....

    like i said...if im billy knight...i probably dont do it....but it cant be the most ridiculous trade ever discussed on a message board..

    That's better - I was thinking you were talking about just sending AJ for their 1st rd pick next year. That makes more sense - but they still have Lue & Delk who are fairly equivalent to AJ IMO.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    May would be OK - I'd take Simien over him though.

    And you may have a shot at Taft. That's more a roll of the dice. He could be a lazy bum who turns into the next Ollie Miller but he could also wake up, snort the coffee and turn into a 20-10 monster.

    I think May and Simien are more sure things but their top end isn't what Taft's is.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  18. #43
    foretaz
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Care to tell us why?
    sure...i think ive said so a couple times before...but u might have missed it or went right past it cause of that, uh, other thing we discussed a bit ago...

    there are couple factors why i feel this way....

    quality big men-centers pfs- are always at a premium....because there are so few good ones....therefore one could argue that all bigs become overvalued because the teams are all attempting to find that one special one and end up overpaying for a lot who arent very good....

    there have been so many perceived quality big guys in college that have come to the nba and disappointed....whether the expectations are reasonable or not-is another story-and a valid one at that...but for every one that dominates in college and goes on to have a good nba career there are probably at least 10 that never materialize....

    they dominate in college because of the same reason that they become overvalued....there are just so few quality bigs...so an above average big can dominate in college....

    an above average big will be a bust in the nba....more often times than not....

    may has very good skills that are made to look that much better in the college game....once he gets to the nba where the competition is much different, his skill level, i believe, will turn out to be lacking....hes undersized IMO and has is 'soft'....even if he turns around his body....he still will be undersized.....hes a men amongst boys in college....in the nba almost the reverse will be true...

    i believe hes coming out for one reason....his stock would only drop next year....hes perceived to be the best player on the best team in college-and theres a long history of that sort of thing being overvalued....i personally disagree that hes the best player on that team, and where his fellow teammates are predicted to be drafted should not only prove that but also make u second guess how good he actually is....with those teammates he had-it only stands to reason he might be overvalued....hes probably gonna be the 3rd player drafted from his team(if not the 4th).....if ur the 3rd or 4th best player on ur team, odds are u might not quite as good as ur performance in the tournament would lead people to believe...

    remember, if hes a quality big man he would probably go much higher in next years draft because this years draft has many players entering because of the proposed age limit situation....he and his dad had openly said they would prefer to return to college for his 4th year....and every thing points to it being a wise decision if they didnt think his stock would fall any....but they do....and even as it is..hes projected to go around 15-20....that should be a strong indicator of something if hes such a great big man and the best he will ever do is go that high....

    bottom line....i think hes a smaller version of david harrison...and though i hope im really wrong, i think david is gonna struggle to get much better and therefore much playing time....a smaller version will be much worse....

    if the pacers would draft may(which im really hoping they dont) i will support him very strongly and hope im waaayyy wrong....but at this point i hope they get rid of the pick....let alone give something up to move up-only to take may...

    IMHO

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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    EDIT - Bill, have you given up on Harrison?
    No, but to be honest I just don't completely trust his rock-hard hands next year. Considering the shortage of big men anyway, I think an all-around 5 who can give good minutes, allowing us the luxury of seeing whether Harrison is good enough to get into the starting lineup, allows us to use Dale at PF (if we still have him) backing up JO, and Foster for specific situations where rebounding is a must.

    My main point is we need an offensive threat at 5 as well as at 4. JO is perfectly capable of rebounding, as he has shown in past seasons, if he isn't the only front court scoring presence.

    Whether you discount Ron in the front court because you see him more away from the basket (as I do) or you see him more away from the team (as you do ) doesn't matter in this case.

    If Harrison works out and Dale is still healthy by trade deadline, having a glut at 4/5 (instead of just at 4) gives us good trade bait should we need it.
    BillS

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  20. #45
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    That's better - I was thinking you were talking about just sending AJ for their 1st rd pick next year. That makes more sense - but they still have Lue & Delk who are fairly equivalent to AJ IMO.

    i wouldnt disagree with u to much about aj being similar to those two....the best part about trading aj right now is his stock will never likely be higher....he got lots of starter minutes and that team went to the playoffs...i just have a feeling now is the best time ever to upgrade....this time next year atlanta wont even consider it....right now they might be inclined since they might perceive aj as an upgrade...and a good tutor for their soon to be rookie pg

  21. #46
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    May's bball-IQ is so much higher than Fizer's it's not even funny.

    I'm really starting to get excited at the prospect of getting May, if for no other reason than to get rid of Cro. I'd even be willing to move up a bit to get him. Our draft picks are likely going to be going back down to the late 20's after this year, anyway. But from all the mock drafts I've seen, it doesn't look like we'll have to move up.

    Speaking of the draft, is anybody else pissed they moved the draft back a week? I was thinking it'd be two weeks from Wednesday, but I looked at the calendar and it's three weeks from tomorrow.
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  22. #47
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    May's bball-IQ is so much higher than Fizer's it's not even funny.

    I'm really starting to get excited at the prospect of getting May, if for no other reason than to get rid of Cro. I'd even be willing to move up a bit to get him. Our draft picks are likely going to be going back down to the late 20's after this year, anyway. But from all the mock drafts I've seen, it doesn't look like we'll have to move up.

    Speaking of the draft, is anybody else pissed they moved the draft back a week? I was thinking it'd be two weeks from Wednesday, but I looked at the calendar and it's three weeks from tomorrow.
    thats the allure of quality big men...and why theyre overvalued....because we all get excited about them possibly being really good....and thats also why they always break our hearts....

    now...forget about that for a moment...as much as im not a fan of may-i dislike croshere probably even more....and if his outside shot has left him for good(i somewhat doubt this-believe it was more the injury) i wouldnt mind having may instead of croshere in the least bit....remember under normal circumstances croshere will struggle to find minutes, and wouldtn have hardly played this past year, if not for all the turmoil....however...explain this to me....i wanna know what ur exit strategy is for croshere....i would love to know how we get rid of his contract....and would gladly take a much smaller one in the form of may at the 17....

    tell me how....and i will get excited bout getting may....though id probably find something else i would prefer spending the money on...

  23. #48
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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    I still see the weakest positions as PG and PF. As both Tinsley and JONeal have a tendency to get injured....the PG position can at least be adequately filled by AJ. But if JONeal is injured....then the Pacers are stuck with an inconsistent Croshere that comes out one night and doesn't show up the next night.

    A tweener SF/PF would be nice to have that can score, rebound and doesn't have a tendency to stray towards the 3 point line ( basiscally eveything that Croshere isn't ).

    Drafting a PG in the 2nd round would be good if the Pacers can get rid of Gill so that they have the time to develop them.

    The bottom line is that if Tinsley and JONeal went down to injury...and the backup player had to step up....AJ is a capable starter whereas Croshere isn't.

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    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    thats the allure of quality big men...and why theyre overvalued....because we all get excited about them possibly being really good....and thats also why they always break our hearts....

    now...forget about that for a moment...as much as im not a fan of may-i dislike croshere probably even more....and if his outside shot has left him for good(i somewhat doubt this-believe it was more the injury) i wouldnt mind having may instead of croshere in the least bit....remember under normal circumstances croshere will struggle to find minutes, and wouldtn have hardly played this past year, if not for all the turmoil....however...explain this to me....i wanna know what ur exit strategy is for croshere....i would love to know how we get rid of his contract....and would gladly take a much smaller one in the form of may at the 17....

    tell me how....and i will get excited bout getting may....though id probably find something else i would prefer spending the money on...
    Oh, I'm not saying May's gonna be great, but I can see him being a good bench player, which is all you can expect outside the lottery.

    And I'm not saying we're gonna magically be rid of Cro's contract, either. We're stuck with that piece of **** until Judgement Day. It'd just be nice if I didn't have to see him on the floor anymore.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  25. #50
    foretaz
    Guest

    Default Re: A draft question about position....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    Oh, I'm not saying May's gonna be great, but I can see him being a good bench player, which is all you can expect outside the lottery.

    And I'm not saying we're gonna magically be rid of Cro's contract, either. We're stuck with that piece of **** until Judgement Day. It'd just be nice if I didn't have to see him on the floor anymore.
    well it appears we feel the same about cro...

    and if not for all the turmoil last year we wouldnt have seen him on the floor....hell in the playoffs, even with jermaine hurt and ron gone he disappeared...

    with our complete roster in tact next year....he turns into the bald darko
    ...

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