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Thread: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Hicks

    You make some good points but Reggie, even before 1994, for all his antics

    1 - had an inner calm and poise
    2 - was disciplined
    3 -never broke plays
    4 -always played within the system
    5 - never called out teammmates
    6 - never pouted
    7 - never talked back to the coach
    8 - was focussed 100% of the time
    9 - he never took it for granted that he will be back in the playoffs


    Sure he has mellowed down on the trash talking and occasional outburst on the refs but he was always focussed on the court. The high level of concentration and focus was always there. The current NBA player, which includes players on our Pacers team,

    1 -takes everything for granted
    2 - considers being on the court a right, not a privelege
    3 - does not have any respect for authority (eg - coaches and refrees even though the refs deserve it sometime)
    4 - has too much outside stuff (posse, rap albums, etc) which brings down the level of concentration and focus

    I sure hope your flicker of hope comes out to be true. I can see JO maturing but I am not sure how old Sjax is and how much more mature he will become. RA is a complete case study in maturity. Also, there are some young players on thios team who already appear mature - FJones, JJones, JFoster. That makes me doubt if it has to do with age rather than personality.

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Time for "Did you know"!

    Do you know that J.O. has as much hair as Ben Wallace?
    It takes years to regrow that much hair to be able to have cornrows like J.O. does?

    From personal experience, I have tried to grow my own hair out to braid for either knots or rows only to fail because after 7 months of my hair growing...I was only about half way to the point of having enough hair to have rows done.

    I recall when our team shaved heads in 1998, and the most complex doo on the team as far as I remember was Rik's. Even Rik's hair was back to normal by the beginning of the next season. It would take J.O. at least 3 to possibly 5 years to even come close to the amount of hair that it would take to braid his hair like he does now! I think that questioning J.O.'s ability to lead over his hair is based on ignorance of the fact of how long it actually takes to grow black hair and is totally unfair!

    Jermaine's hair is his PERSONAL identity, not just a way to say look at me amoung my teammates. IMHO....of course.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome
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    Time for "Did you know"!

    Do you know that J.O. has as much hair as Ben Wallace?
    It takes years to regrow that much hair to be able to have cornrows like J.O. does?

    From personal experience, I have tried to grow my own hair out to braid for either knots or rows only to fail because after 7 months of my hair growing...I was only about half way to the point of having enough hair to have rows done.

    I recall when our team shaved heads in 1998, and the most complex doo on the team as far as I remember was Rik's. Even Rik's hair was back to normal by the beginning of the next season. It would take J.O. at least 3 to possibly 5 years to even come close to the amount of hair that it would take to braid his hair like he does now! I think that questioning J.O.'s ability to lead over his hair is based on ignorance of the fact of how long it actually takes to grow black hair and is totally unfair!

    Jermaine's hair is his PERSONAL identity, not just a way to say look at me amoung my teammates. IMHO....of course.
    Bingo!!!!!!!

    You just nailed it.

    It is his personal identity & he demonstrated that that was more important than the team identity.

    Look, I'm not saying it's the end of the world but to me (at the time) it just showed me that Jermaine was more concerned with himself than following what was a tradition for the team.

    Now you can argue that it was stupid to shave their heads anyway & I'd be hard pressed to disagree. But it was something they did as a show of unity & to bond with one another.

    BTW, J.O.'s hair was not that long when he refused to shave it.

    As to Austin refusing to shave his head?? I have no idea where you are getting that from. Go look at the playoff pictures from his first 2 years in the NBA & you will see a bald Croshere.

    Again, I knew I shouldn't have posted this because standing back & looking at it this does seem stupid. And taken by itself it really would mean nothing. But to me, at the time, it just seemed like we were going away from players who were about the team to players who were about themselves.

    Just my opinion & I could be wrong.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    Of course Artest is in his own class - and in his case it isn't maturity - it's sanity.
    Very well said.
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Bingo!!!!!!!

    You just nailed it.

    It is his personal identity & he demonstrated that that was more important than the team identity.


    Again, I knew I shouldn't have posted this because standing back & looking at it this does seem stupid. And taken by itself it really would mean nothing. But to me, at the time, it just seemed like we were going away from players who were about the team to players who were about themselves.

    Just my opinion & I could be wrong.
    While I agree with the thought that this in and of itself is nothing, I also think it deserved to be filed away as a 'possible' sign of what Peck is talking about here.

    Let's not forget, back then JO should've been doing whatever it took to be 'part of the team'. I can understand not wanting to cut his hair but I can also see where Peck is coming from with this.

    It was not enough to go screaming "Cut him! Poser! Trade him! He's not a 'team' player!!!!" ...But OTOH... it should've gave everyone a little nagging question in the back of their minds.



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  6. #31
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    While I agree with the thought that this in and of itself is nothing, I also think it deserved to be filed away as a 'possible' sign of what Peck is talking about here.

    Let's not forget, back then JO should've been doing whatever it took to be 'part of the team'. I can understand not wanting to cut his hair but I can also see where Peck is coming from with this.

    It was not enough to go screaming "Cut him! Poser! Trade him! He's not a 'team' player!!!!" ...But OTOH... it should've gave everyone a little nagging question in the back of their minds.

    -Bball
    Or maybe he didn't want to join the brotherhood of the sheep. Leaders don't have a herd mentality. Just another way of looking at it.

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    As to Austin refusing to shave his head?? I have no idea where you are getting that from. Go look at the playoff pictures from his first 2 years in the NBA & you will see a bald Croshere.
    I still see a bald Croshere...

    I'm not talking about his first two years. I'm talking about a star article from a couple of years ago where they covered the death of this tradition. It wasn't anybody refusing to be part of the team... it was nobody saw any reason to continue it. One of the guys that expressly came out and said he saw no reason to continue it was Austin. Al Harrington was there when Montieth asked Austin the question, and came back with something about Austin not wanting to because it never grew back from the first time.

    Does nobody else remember this? I really wish the star had better archives.
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    I don't know, I guess I just took what you said the wrong way, Peck. I just see a lot of folks all over, not just here, but out 'n about that feel J.O. cant lead this team without Reggie Miller holding his hand. It is just personally irritating to me. I think J.O. will be just fine. I don't think Reggie would have stepped aside if he didn't feel the team was in capable hands.....IMHO, as always!

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Here's a picture of Jermaine against the Sixers in his first playoff performance as a Pacer:



    So he did it his first year. I'll go back and figure out when the tradition stopped, but I don't see what's so offensive to you about letting stupid traditions die.

    EDIT: Here's Jermaine's second year as a Pacer:



    So that's when the tradition finally died.
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  10. #35
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    I still see a bald Croshere...

    I'm not talking about his first two years. I'm talking about a star article from a couple of years ago where they covered the death of this tradition. It wasn't anybody refusing to be part of the team... it was nobody saw any reason to continue it. One of the guys that expressly came out and said he saw no reason to continue it was Austin. Al Harrington was there when Montieth asked Austin the question, and came back with something about Austin not wanting to because it never grew back from the first time.

    Does nobody else remember this? I really wish the star had better archives.

    actually anthem....now that u mention it...that does ring a bell....i do believe ur onpoint....i do seem to remember it being croshere wanting to eliminate the somewhat silly tradition....and who can blame him...between he and smits....whew...

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    AFAIK the only bald years were 98 and 2003. I remember a bald Smits and Mullin in 98, and a bald Jeff and Brad in 2003. I don't remember a bald Cro in 2003, and he wasn't here in 98. Didn't he break the trend in '03?

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    AFAIK the only bald years were 98 and 2003. I remember a bald Smits and Mullin in 98, and a bald Jeff and Brad in 2003. I don't remember a bald Cro in 2003, and he wasn't here in 98. Didn't he break the trend in '03?
    Cro was drafted in 1997.

    I'm guessing he wasn't on the 1998 playoff roster?

  13. #38
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    AFAIK the only bald years were 98 and 2003. I remember a bald Smits and Mullin in 98, and a bald Jeff and Brad in 2003. I don't remember a bald Cro in 2003, and he wasn't here in 98. Didn't he break the trend in '03?
    u know what??? as i step back for a second...i cant help but think how ridiculous this is.....

    and i cant help but think the root of the problem is when we , as fans, have some disdain for certain players and their attitudes that we then go looking for things to make our case to further villify them....

    it really speaks to the overall fan/player relationship that is the basis for the nba's image problem and growing concern over their fan base....

    i mean here we are discussing who cut their hair when....and why they didnt want to cut their hair....and what sort of symbolism should be read into not wanting to cut their hair....and what a bad leader that might make one if he chooses to not cut his hair....and how selfish it is to not cut your hair.....

    i mean...woooaaahhhh....seems we might need to get a grip again....are we really so desperate to villify these guys? it appears so....appears there is definite pent up frustration towards some of these guys....

    and it seems it keeps coming back to how much money theyre making and them not conducting themselves the way we feel they should....

    you know one comment ive seen mentioned a couple of times that i think is really telling is this....and im not sure who made it...and im not trying to single anyone out....but it went something like....jermaine was just given the leadership role and the face of the franchise label...

    excuse me....but to say this is like a royal slap in the face to donnie walsh and his organization....first of all....jermaine wasnt just given his max contract because of poor performance....look at his production prior to the contract....even moreso what did he do after that contract??? 3rd in the voting for MVP....hmmmm....seems he might very well of been deserving....

    we all should step back and check our feelings sometimes....it appears theres alot of resentment towards these players....and its really starting to show when this thread has taken on the life that it has....

    i mean seriously....we are debating about why grown men should cut their hair or not....just because a guy makes millions doesnt mean he necessarily has to shave his head....wow...the more i think of this whole thing, the worse it gets....its almost embarassing..

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    u know what??? as i step back for a second...i cant help but think how ridiculous this is.....
    You have a point. That is, you would, if it wasn't in purple bold text.
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    This all started, back in the Dick Versace days, around the pool hotel in Charlotte. In a sign of unity during a difficult road trip, Chuck, Tank, Vern and a couple of other players shaved thier heads, and the Pacers won the next game. Most of the rest of the team, except the white guys (Detlef, Rik, Randy) and Reggie with his goofy beret, joined them.
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    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
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  16. #41
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    I still see a bald Croshere...

    I'm not talking about his first two years. I'm talking about a star article from a couple of years ago where they covered the death of this tradition. It wasn't anybody refusing to be part of the team... it was nobody saw any reason to continue it. One of the guys that expressly came out and said he saw no reason to continue it was Austin. Al Harrington was there when Montieth asked Austin the question, and came back with something about Austin not wanting to because it never grew back from the first time.

    Does nobody else remember this? I really wish the star had better archives.
    I do not dispute anything you just said, however I want to point out that there is a huge differance between saying there is no reason for something to continue & refusing to do it as you first said. I also remember the interview with Al about this however I saw it with the WISH reporter at the time & I took it as Al making a joke about it. But even if it wasn't then I still think there is a differance between not wanting to & refusing to.


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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome
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    I don't know, I guess I just took what you said the wrong way, Peck. I just see a lot of folks all over, not just here, but out 'n about that feel J.O. cant lead this team without Reggie Miller holding his hand. It is just personally irritating to me. I think J.O. will be just fine. I don't think Reggie would have stepped aside if he didn't feel the team was in capable hands.....IMHO, as always!

    No problem at all. Like I said I wish I hadn't even posted that because it has turned into the great hair debate & that was never the point of the matter to me.

    But to J.O. himself I think that people are concerned because of the past. We had never had a player who was so dominate & talented yet also so self promoting in our NBA history (I'm intentionally leaving out the ABA because I just can't speak on it with any authority I'll let the grey beards talk on it). Remember J.O.'s first year here? Remember the press conferances where he talked about M.V.P., M.I.P., & shot blocking titles? He talked about everything except winning a title. That just set wrong with a lot of people (ok by a lot of people I mean me )

    Let's never forget one thing either. I have a skewed view of him & I always make sure to admit it because it may cloud my judgement on him. I try & keep an open mind but I'll just say that the first couple of years he was here he was anything but my favorite player (for those of you late to the game I have a skewed view of him because he was traded for Dale).

    I will say this though & this is where I disagree with almost every single poster on this board. Isiah Thomas was good for Jermaine O'Neal. He actually turned him IMO & the last year he was here & the first year Carlisle was here J.O. was a changed person.

    This year I'm willing to just right it off & say that with all of the turmoil we had I'm just happy he didn't come to the games with a gun & start stalking Stern around.


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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    u know what??? as i step back for a second...i cant help but think how ridiculous this is.....

    and i cant help but think the root of the problem is when we , as fans, have some disdain for certain players and their attitudes that we then go looking for things to make our case to further villify them....

    it really speaks to the overall fan/player relationship that is the basis for the nba's image problem and growing concern over their fan base....

    i mean here we are discussing who cut their hair when....and why they didnt want to cut their hair....and what sort of symbolism should be read into not wanting to cut their hair....and what a bad leader that might make one if he chooses to not cut his hair....and how selfish it is to not cut your hair.....

    i mean...woooaaahhhh....seems we might need to get a grip again....are we really so desperate to villify these guys? it appears so....appears there is definite pent up frustration towards some of these guys....

    and it seems it keeps coming back to how much money theyre making and them not conducting themselves the way we feel they should....

    you know one comment ive seen mentioned a couple of times that i think is really telling is this....and im not sure who made it...and im not trying to single anyone out....but it went something like....jermaine was just given the leadership role and the face of the franchise label...

    excuse me....but to say this is like a royal slap in the face to donnie walsh and his organization....first of all....jermaine wasnt just given his max contract because of poor performance....look at his production prior to the contract....even moreso what did he do after that contract??? 3rd in the voting for MVP....hmmmm....seems he might very well of been deserving....

    we all should step back and check our feelings sometimes....it appears theres alot of resentment towards these players....and its really starting to show when this thread has taken on the life that it has....

    i mean seriously....we are debating about why grown men should cut their hair or not....just because a guy makes millions doesnt mean he necessarily has to shave his head....wow...the more i think of this whole thing, the worse it gets....its almost embarassing..
    Since I'm the one who started this I guess your talking to me.

    As I've said in previous posts, by itself not only is it silly it's downright absurd in a way.

    However when we look at it from a differant angle I'm not so sure it is. It's all part of a picture, it's just one piece of the puzzle, it's just one slice of peach in a fruit pie or whatever other analogy's you wanna use. (Notice it always comes back to pie for me )


    Ok, let's just ask a question. Other than for marketing reasons, which back in the 40' & 50's wasn't really even considered, why does the NBA make players wear uniforms?

    No, really why do they? Why don't they just let players wear whatever they want to wear on the floor?

    Ok, if it's for safety so somebody doesn't get injured by some belt buckle then let's ask this. Why don't they just let every player just wear whatever basketball attire they choose to wear?

    If your gonna say so that they can know who is who on a team then let's just ask why not shirts & skins (or blowses for you Chappelle fans)?

    Why then do teams wear thier own style of uniforms? Why doesn't the NBA just have dark uniforms for away teams & light colored ones for home teams? With no logos or no markings.

    Now go one step further why don't teams let players wear whatever jerseys they want to wear?

    I think we would all know Jermaine O'neal no matter if he was wearing a Pacers # 7 or a Blazers # 7.

    What if J.O. just wanted to express his own identity & wear a jersey that just said Jermaine on the front & O'neal on the back but yet it was blue & gold. Why would this be wrong?

    It's all about being part of a group. It's all about commitment. It means when you put on a Knicks uniform you represent the franchise. It means when you put on a Pistons uniform you are out on parole (sorry D-Town fans I just couldn't resist ) & here it means when you put on a Pacers uniform you represent the Simons & the way we feel about it the state of Indiana as well.

    Magic Johnson was a dynamic leader but he never seperated himself from his team mates. Same goes for Bird, Isiah & Dr. J.

    Jordon on the other hand, yeah he didn't toe the party line very well.

    So what did my mindless ramblings above mean? Nothing.

    But my intention is to say this. I always thought the shaving of the heads was actually kind of dumb. But I also understood it was the players way of committing to each other. It wasn't about being a better player it was always about being a better team mate.

    So let's not look to much into the shave or unshaved thing. Look at it as I was intending. Commitment or non commitment thing.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I do not dispute anything you just said, however I want to point out that there is a huge differance between saying there is no reason for something to continue & refusing to do it as you first said.
    Peck, I don't know what the heck you're talking about, then.

    - Jermaine's first year as a Pacer was 2001. He shaved his head.
    - Next year was 2002. Pictures I've found show that Jalen and Al had shaved heads, but Jermaine, Brad, and Jeff didn't. I don't think the team shaved their heads for the playoffs, which ties in with what Hicks said.
    - Next year was 2003. This is the year we lost to the Celtics. I can't find any media on NBA.com (the videos are dead and the articles have pictures stripped), but I don't remember Brad or Jeff lacking hair

    I fail to see how any of this shows that Jermaine was putting his personal identity above his team identity. As far as I can tell, the last time the whole team shaved their heads was 2001, and Jermaine joined in. So please explain exactly what season you're talking about, because I ain't getting it.

    EDIT: Peck, I posted this before you posted the post above. Your post didn't clear it up for me, though. When I look at it, I don't see Jermaine refusing to participate in anything. I see the tradition dying off (at long last).
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Peck, I don't know what the heck you're talking about, then.

    - Jermaine's first year as a Pacer was 2001. He shaved his head.
    - Next year was 2002. Pictures I've found show that Jalen and Al had shaved heads, but Jermaine, Brad, and Jeff didn't. I don't think the team shaved their heads for the playoffs, which ties in with what Hicks said.
    - Next year was 2003. This is the year we lost to the Celtics. I can't find any media on NBA.com (the videos are dead and the articles have pictures stripped), but I don't remember Brad or Jeff lacking hair

    I fail to see how any of this shows that Jermaine was putting his personal identity above his team identity. As far as I can tell, the last time the whole team shaved their heads was 2001, and Jermaine joined in. So please explain exactly what season you're talking about, because I ain't getting it.

    EDIT: Peck, I posted this before you posted the post above. Your post didn't clear it up for me, though. When I look at it, I don't see Jermaine refusing to participate in anything. I see the tradition dying off (at long last).

    Jalen was gone before the 2002 playoffs.

    In 2003, I'm almost sure that Jeff had regular hair and that Brad had his normal short cut.

  21. #46
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Jalen was gone before the 2002 playoffs.
    You're right, I was looking at a picture from the regular season. I forgot Jalen scored 43 points in the first game against the Nets that season. No wonder Chicago was interested.

    In 2003, I'm almost sure that Jeff had regular hair and that Brad had his normal short cut.
    Yup. The team didn't shave their heads in 2003.
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  22. #47

    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Judging from the murky criteria of what maturity is I can only guess it comes when someone wins a championship. As far as I am concerned maturity remains a euphism for old. I want some one who listens to their coach, works to improve to win and wants to win--all of which JO does.

    "Maturity" has now replaced "potential" as the most dreaded word on the forum.

  23. #48
    Member Ultimate Frisbee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    So... Supposing one of our prime needs now is a solid veteran or 2 to bring so maturity to the club... who would fit the bill?

    We have plenty of young talent (who I don't even think are that immature, just not overly experienced and wise)... We need to bring it all together with some age and experience

    I really think our need is a skilled veteran who either starts or comes off the bench 1st... a guy like 'Sheed or Mcdyess in Detroit

    Some names of possible Veteran Free Agents:

    Shareef Abdur-Rahim
    Zydrunas Ilgauskas (not sure about his leadership quality, but he would be a good center to have beside JO)
    Ray Allen
    Eddie Jones (player option)
    Bobby Jackson (team option)
    Jon Barry
    Grant Hill (player option)
    Bonzi Wells (team option)
    Gerald Wallace (restricted)
    Antoine Walker (please god no)
    Clifford Robinson (team option)
    Alonzo Mourning
    Dikembe Mutumbo

    My first choice might actually be Shareef Abdur Rahim.... Yes, every team that he has played on has sucked, but he is a superb basketball player and a great person...

    Grant Hill is another name that comes to mind immediately

    Clif Robinson would also be nice

    I'm not opposed to someone like Eddie Jones either... he is a skilled veteran with playoff expereince

    Non-free Agent Veterans that might be interesting to acquire:

    Antonio Davis
    Sam Cassell
    PJ Brown
    Kurt Thomas
    Robert Horry (not a chance)
    Donyell Marshall


    Thoughts??

    EDIT: A complete list of free agents can be found here:
    http://probasketball.about.com/od/ne...eeagents05.htm

  24. #49

    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    If a vet is what's needed I would say the two things that they would need to 1) have been very deep in the playoffs in not played a role on a championship team 2) at a point in their careers where their roles are not an issue.

    Players like a Linsey Hunter, Robert Horry. Those kinds of players are hard to come by though and I would think the world of Donnie if he got one.

  25. #50
    Member TheHotShot31's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    I wouldnt mind having Sam Cassell, thats IF hes healthy.

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