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Thread: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

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    Default Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Many of you have grown tired of the immature actions of our key people. Tinsley, Jermaine, Ron, Jack. They've all done some stupid things, some worse than others, but none of it good. God knows I've grown sick of it.

    However there's one glimmer of hope I try to keep in mind. Remember how Reggie talked when he was a young guy here? Remember later, in 1994, when he started getting into it with Spike Lee? He said and did some pretty rude things that day.

    Reggie himself alludes to his immaturity in his farewell speech last month.

    So here's where the hope part comes in. In 1994, when Reggie was still immature and doing some of these poor things, he was *drumroll*

    28 years old. That's right. 2 years shy from 30.

    During most of this past 2004-05 season:

    Jermaine O'Neal was 26 (will be 27 in October)
    Ron Artest was 25 (Will be 26 in November)
    Stephen Jackson was 26 (Turned 27 in April)
    Jamaal Tinsley was 26 (Turned 27 on the 28th of Feb.)

    These numbers give me just a little hope that things can work out. Now let's be honest with ourselves, some of the problems these guys have are worse than anything Reggie had. They may never get it. Nonetheless, most of their problems aren't too far from Reggie's, and look how he turned in the end.

    Meanwhile, note that at age 28, Reggie had his first big playoff performance. At least that I'm aware of; Pacers history before then is shaky at best for me so I'll let someone else fill in the gaps.

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    Member indytoad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    I wouldn't use Reggie as a yardstick for maturity. 28 is pretty old to be doing the stuff he was doing, and as I recall it didn't win him any championships.

    IndyToad
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by indytoad
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    I wouldn't use Reggie as a yardstick for maturity. 28 is pretty old to be doing the stuff he was doing, and as I recall it didn't win him any championships.

    IndyToad
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    Your fingers. Typing. See someone about that.

    But if you can't, then at least stop spinning to spew your completely fake, and utterly annoying venom. Maturity doesn't win championships; but immaturity can prevent them.

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    Member indytoad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    Maturity doesn't win championships; but immaturity can prevent them.
    Exactly.

    IndyToad
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Not that it matters, but Artest was actually born on November 13, 1979, so he'll be 26 this season.

    Right now, I would put Jermaine in kind of the same category with a young Reggie Miller. Reggie was immature, Jermaine is immature. I hope that Jermaine turns out good in the end.

    Ron though.....Ron's case is way out there.

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    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    Meanwhile, note that at age 28, Reggie had his first big playoff performance. At least that I'm aware of; Pacers history before then is shaky at best for me so I'll let someone else fill in the gaps.
    Heh, that actually made me feel better/younger, since I turn 27 in two weeks.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    How long had Reggie been in the league in '94?
    How long has JO et al been in the league?

    -Bball "Not sure what any of this means"
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    How long had Reggie been in the league in '94?
    How long has JO et al been in the league?

    -Bball "Not sure what any of this means"
    Reggie was drafted in 1987, so 93-94 would have been his 7th season with the Pacers.

    Jermaine was drafted in 1996, so 04-05 was his 9th season in the NBA.(5th with the Pacers)

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    I put more stock in actual age than years in the league in terms of players' maturity. Not that that's the only factor. But when I look at where Reggie was then, and where he was in his later years, I realize these new guys aren't as old as I sometimes think they are. Things can still change.

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    There is one big differance though between now & then. Well actually there are two.

    1. Reggies antics were always spewed at the enemy & at the refs.. He never once pouted or had a fit about lack of offense or respect from his coach's. He never had disputes with his team mates.

    2. Even in 94 there was a core of veteran leaders in the locker room that firmly had control over the younger guys. In other words there was a very good mixture of youth & age (just like there would have been in 00-01 if we hadn't busted up the team but that is a differant story). They even had T-shirts made up identifying the young (Dawg pound) & the vet (I can't remember what they called themselves). Reggie should have been with the vets. but chose to stay with the young guys & took on more of a role in public. Sam Mitchell was clearly the vet. leader of that team with LaSalle Thompson & Byron Scott being there as well. The young guys respected them & there were no problems.

    Of course one of the big advantages was that nobody on that team was told from day one that they were the franchise so nobody thought they were exempt from being part of a unit.

    Ok, here is where I am going to sound crazy to some of you & I know that there are going to be responses of "so what, it's not important" but just hear me out.

    One of the signs to me a few years back that he wasn't really going to be the leader I had hoped for was when Jermaine O'Neal refused to shave his head for the playoffs.

    Reggie had everybody going to do it but when WTHR intervied him in the locker room before the playoffs after a practice he just laughed & said "no way".

    Yea I know it's petty on my part, but to me it was a sign that he was not going to join the team. He was going to maintain his own identity. Thus ceased the honored tradition of shaved heads for the playoffs except for rookies. I'm sure some of you are saying good because you remember Smits & Croshere bald (Ok with Cro you still see that today) but what that was was a sign of team unity & commitment. If your leader won't commit then why should you?

    Like I said, I know there are going to be people who think I'm just full of B.S. for that but it's just the way I feel.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    I think it's a good observation, actually.

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    I think it just means Jermaine is too concerned with his appearance to look all goofy on national TV. We all know Jermaine takes his time to look nice, I don't find the fact he didn't want to shave his head surprising.
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to respond to this thread.

    Maybe we should put a list together of really mature good players.

    The Spurs are mature, but Manu and Parker drive Popovich crazy at times.

    Most would say the Pistons are really mature, but let's look at it a little closer. Sheed isn't, Ben didn't show any maturity on 11/19. The Pistons as a team have let the officating in this series bother them.

    Wade is mature, but there are times when he gets out of control and tries to do too much.

    I don't know what my overall point is, except to say that every player does some things they shouldn't some things many of us don't like. We don't know about things non-Pacer players do because we don't watch them play every game or listen or read their quotes every day.

    The first thing I look for in a player is competetiveness, and I think Tinsley, J.O , Jax, and Ron all have that. The maturity thing will come and go, but overall I think it will improve.

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    screw jermaine, I didn't know that...and now I dislike him more.

    I'd trade Jermaine for Pierce, thats how much I dont like him.

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to respond to this thread.

    Maybe we should put a list together of really mature good players.

    The Spurs are mature, but Manu and Parker drive Popovich crazy at times.

    Most would say the Pistons are really mature, but let's look at it a little closer. Sheed isn't, Ben didn't show any maturity on 11/19. The Pistons as a team have let the officating in this series bother them.

    Wade is mature, but there are times when he gets out of control and tries to do too much.

    I don't know what my overall point is, except to say that every player does some things they shouldn't some things many of us don't like. We don't know about things non-Pacer players do because we don't watch them play every game or listen or read their quotes every day.

    The first thing I look for in a player is competetiveness, and I think Tinsley, J.O , Jax, and Ron all have that. The maturity thing will come and go, but overall I think it will improve.
    I think every team has some immature players, but the best teams have mature players to stabilize the immature ones. Detroit has Hamilton and Billips, San Antonio has Duncan, and so on. The problem is that all of the Pacers' best players are the most immature.

    IndyToad
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by indytoad
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    I think every team has some immature players, but the best teams have mature players to stabilize the immature ones. Detroit has Hamilton and Billips, San Antonio has Duncan, and so on. The problem is that all of the Pacers' best players are the most immature.

    IndyToad
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    Quoted for truth.

    In fact, Reggie was the mature one on the team after the 2000 breakup. Now that he's gone, we could win the whole thing, or we could completely implode.

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    foretaz
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Peck, very interesting comment....though i think it might point more to the lack of maturity and what todays player is typically like than his leadership qualities....

    however, remember jermaine was very young and was only beginning his foray as a major player in the playoffs....and the leadership role was still a very clouded one as this was clearly reggies team as far as leadership goes....that being said...now that jermaine is older...i bet he might look back on that and admit he would do things differently if had to do them all over again...

    as hicks alluded to....we so often forget how old these kids are....because theyre coming out of high school , theyve been in the league alot longer and our expectations are higher...but they are still very young and maturity is much more a product of personal growth versus time served in the nba....

    this is one of the main reasons its tough to find mature players in the nba, as buck stated....the overall age has dropped dramatically....which means the overall maturity has dropped as well....

    these players will grow up....not at the pace we would like....but they will...and just like parents whose kids drive them crazy....these players will drive the fans and the management crazy as well....but such is the way it is in nba, by and large, these days....tim duncan is the rare exception, no matter how much we might like him to be the rule...

    as far as artest goes....hes a different story....his is not nearly as much a maturity issue as it is other things....yes, ron has matured and will continue to do so....however the problems that ron has had is driven more by personal issues and almost nitemares versus maturity...maturity helps...but is hardly the answer in his case....

    the sorts of demons hes dealing with only get worse with age if left unchecked....and despite what some would like u to believe, these matters are being addressed....and these sorts of issues invariably get better when they are addressed....and despite the setback of going into the stands....if one is truly objective he can see where there has definitely been progress made...most importantly, rons attitude is one that u have to like....you want to go to battle with ron....good management finds a way to maximize a players/employees strong points and improve and minimize his negatives....we have good management....and ron has a good heart....so things will continue to get better....

    they will drive us crazy at times....just like any team will....there is no perfect scenario...if there was it wouldnt be nearly as exciting....and when u feel like uve had more to overcome, well the taste of success will be that much better-look at last season...

    when we win a title in these next few years....we will look back on all that has happened....and it will feel sooooooooo good....as the jedi master tells the padawan.....patience...u must exercise patience.....and resist the temptations from the dark side

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    You know, I reeallly cannot read that. As everyone else has told...


    This maturity thing is kinda interesting. But I feel as though the immaturity of this team is just beyond control sometimes. As said, Duncan is the most calm, collected guy on the SA team. He doesn't have these outbursts. Same with Chauncy/Rip. It is the best players on a team that dictates how the rest of the team acts. Jermaine is the leader now, and I'm not sure whether he can maintain his composure during critical junctures. If he doesn't, others will follow his lead. But if he does, those teammates will also follow his lead. The emotional collectiveness of the team resides and depends on the man who leads it.
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    Member SycamoreKen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    I believe that Manu and Parker make mistakes because they are playing to quickly or out of control at times. I don't think it is a youth thing. It was mentioned in another thread that Artest's effort isn't matched in the league. Manu plays every second as hard as anyone. The plus with him is you don't have the wacko factor that Jax and Artest have. He may make a bad play going 100 miles an hour, but he isn't going to wig out.

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    BTW, I'm of the opinion that Anthony Johnson is now the leader of this team.

    Jermaine will be the designated leader & will certainly be the team Captain, but just watch the sidelines & you will see that it is A.J. that gets the team going & is the one doing the talking to.

    Cro will also be a leader but I'm not sure how much respect he has on the team.

    Incidently, if he's here, I could see Jeff taking on a leadership role.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    foretaz
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    BTW, I'm of the opinion that Anthony Johnson is now the leader of this team.

    Jermaine will be the designated leader & will certainly be the team Captain, but just watch the sidelines & you will see that it is A.J. that gets the team going & is the one doing the talking to.

    Cro will also be a leader but I'm not sure how much respect he has on the team.

    Incidently, if he's here, I could see Jeff taking on a leadership role.
    i have a feeling ur not gonna see aj in a pacers uniform next year....his trade value will probably never be higher...and they could use an upgrade at his position that might come in the form of a foreign player....

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    Member Knucklehead Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    I'm middle-aged, have had 3 eye operations and I can read this just fine.

    Here's your difference:

    Every single day at practice he would come up to me and ask "What do you want me to do today, coach? - Isiah Thomas

    He has never once talked back to a coach. - Donnie Walsh

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Croshere also refused to shave his head. And he'd been here and understood what Reggie meant by it.

    Jermaine hadn't been here, and I doubt he thought it was that big of a thing. I don't even play professional basketball, and I didn't think it was a big thing.
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    Member Matney33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    Maturity? Immaturity? Haircut ? Who cares! Please just hit a freaking shot! Stick around for 82 games, play the game,have fun. Win us a freakin' champiionship!

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    Default Re: Flicker of hope about this team's maturity.

    I didn't think Jermaine was that bad this year. He did have a couple of games in the playoffs where he was griping a lot at the refs - but then he quit.

    Jackson's a hothead and probably always will be. I remember being very PO'd when Tinsley had those two stupid fouls in the 3rd quarter of game 4 vs Detroit.

    Of course Artest is in his own class - and in his case it isn't maturity - it's sanity.

    Keep in mind that you have a bunch of very young millionaires running around playing a kid's game. I wouldn't think that would be the life path to maturity recommended by psychologists. Some immaturity's gonna be part of the game. Always has been though it seems like there's a lot more now because of the media. Look at Rick Barry. I'm sure there were others but they didn't get replays on Sportscenter.
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