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Thread: Pierce Being Shopped

  1. #51
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Would any GM be stupid enough to hand the franchise to Ron and give him a max size contract?

    Don't think so
    exaaaaaaaaccttllly..... which is why he is that more valuable....you get an allstar and dpoy for the cost of a role player....like i said...do a complete rundown of all the players making 6 million a year and see what u come up with (excluding rookie contracts of guys that will eventually get max or near max deals)

    you take ron...and love him.....and realize hes probably the best value in the nba....and whatever issues u have to deal with-u do so....thats what good management does in a case like this....theres too much value to just throw away and let someone else reap the rewards....hes paid the price...weve paid the price....last season....that will never happen again....if u think otherwise ur not being very logical.....lightning doesnt strike the same place twice....

    think of it this way....you get jack and ron for a total salary of less than what just about all the superstars are making....as management you find a way to make that work....even if it isnt easy at times....thats why they get paid the big bucks....to make things like this work....

    for what ron brings hes most comparable to duncan and garnett in a lot of ways....guys that flat bring it on both ends of the floor....guys that are able to dominate on both ends of the court....take a look at their contracts....then tell me how, if ur a businessman with the pacers franchise you dont find a way to make that work....

    or try this.....see what it would cost to try and get the contributions that ron brings to the floor....like him...hate him...doesnt matter....hes an incredible asset to this team....and from now on there should be no real problems keeping him on the court where he is so effective

  2. #52
    Member Merz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    I would never do a Artest for Peirce trade. Artest back on this Pacer team does make them title contenders. Adding Peirce to this team might only be a lateral movement. I don't see this team playing much better with Peirce. They're Definetely not title contenders. Artest definetely has the ability to be a top ten player in this league.

  3. #53
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    Ah . . . apples and oranges. You don't let people know your intentions in the draft or they will jump ahead of you.
    Agreed. You also don't let people know who you intend to trade or they will low-ball you.

  4. #54
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    PacerFanAdam, you don't seen to value and appreciate what all Artest brings to the game. The defense, the energy, the physicallness, and the confidence that he provides to the team cannot be overstated.

    You can sit there and say that certain players are better players than Artest, but I think that is missing the point, the most important thing is the overall effect Ron has on a game. I admit it is difficult to quantitfy - but Ron helps his team win in so many ways, many more ways than almost any player in the NBA

    He's a top 10 player, no doubt in my mind.

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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    PacerFanAdam, you don't seen to value and appreciate what all Artest brings to the game. The defense, the energy, the physicallness, and the confidence that he provides to the team cannot be overstated.

    You can sit there and say that certain players are better players than Artest, but I think that is missing the point, the most important thing is the overall effect Ron has on a game. I admit it is difficult to quantitfy - but Ron helps his team win in so many ways, many more ways than almost any player in the NBA

    He's a top 10 player, no doubt in my mind.
    Right now we are going to have to disagree on Artest. I hope I can have your mindset about Artest some day, because that means he would have changed his act, and gone a whole season without causing a distraction. That's what it will take for me to change my opinion on him.

    I fully appreciate the skill level of Artest. I have said many times that he is talented as hell. He is without a doubt a top 10 talent, maybe even a top 5 talent. I disagree that he's a top 10 player. The 15 players I listed are all better at this point than Ron.

    I just don't appreciate everything he brings to the table when he just plays 7 games. I dont appreciate what he did throughout the 02-03 season. I don't appreciate when he causes a major distraction by saying he is going to retire early.

    Like I have said many times, even if a player is as good as Duncan or Lebron, they are still not worth the trouble that Ron Artest has caused, IMO. I think it would be in the best interest of the franchise to trade him right now(i dont think that will happen).

    Teams have won NBA championships without Ron before, believe it or not, and a team is going to win an NBA championship this month without him on their squad.

  6. #56
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    I assume you're talking about the 2002 world basketball championships.

    Who cares, that wasn't in the NBA, and that was 3 years ago.

    I prefer to use NBA statistics to evaluate an NBA player.
    First of all, it wasn't his "statistics", it was the fact that all the coaches and players were mad as hell at Pierce for being such a baby. He, and to a certain extent Baron Davis, are roundly blamed for destroying the team's chemistry. Players didn't even want Paul on the floor.

    And second, if all you look at are "statistics", what exactly is your problem with Artest?
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    First of all, it wasn't his "statistics", it was the fact that all the coaches and players were mad as hell at Pierce for being such a baby. He, and to a certain extent Baron Davis, are roundly blamed for destroying the team's chemistry. Players didn't even want Paul on the floor.

    And second, if all you look at are "statistics", what exactly is your problem with Artest?

    Mainly that his awesome 2004-2005 statistics account for just 7 games.


    Not all I look at are "statistics", but I judge a player more on recent production in the NBA than by competition in the World Basketball Championships 3 years ago.

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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Mainly that his awesome 2004-2005 statistics account for just 7 games.


    Not all I look at are "statistics", but I judge a player more on recent production in the NBA than by competition in the World Basketball Championships 3 years ago.
    So you don't care that in the playoffs this year he *****ed to the media about his teammates not getting him the ball enough, even though the team did better when he scored less (20 ppg in wins vs. 24 ppg in losses)?
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    So you don't care that in the playoffs this year he *****ed to the media about his teammates not getting him the ball enough, even though the team did better when he scored less (20 ppg in wins vs. 24 ppg in losses)?


    Again, I'm not going to dispute the fact that Paul Pierce has attitude problems. It's clear that he be an *******

    But as it's been pointed out, when have you seen Pierce miss games due to a suspension?

    You can atleast always count on Pierce to play, and I think a change of scenery would be good for him and his attitude.

  10. #60
    Long time fan diamonddave00's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    I'll just start with contracts of Artest and Pierce.

    Paul Pierce (28) 2005-06 13.8 mil , 2006-07 15.1 mil., 2007-08 player option 16.3 mil = 2 yr 28.9 with opt out, 3 yr 45.2 mil

    Ron Artest (26) 2005-06 6.5 mil, 2006-07 7.1 mil , 2007-08 7.8 mil, 2008-09 player option 8.4 = 2yrs 13.6 mil , 3 yr 21.4 mil , play opt 4th yr 29.8 mil

    Right off the bat the imbalance in salary means 7.3 must be added from the Pacer side , plus I'm sure with Ron's history a #1 will have to be included.

    With Artest's supposive low trade value currently means a decent player like Fred Jones would have to be included too plus Pollards salary.

    We are now looking at Artest, F.Jones , Pollard and a #1 for Pierce.

    Plus with his opt out we may only have Pierce for 2 years. Sorry to me thats far too high a price to pay .

  11. #61
    Go Paytherth! rel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00
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    I'll just start with contracts of Artest and Pierce.

    Paul Pierce (28) 2005-06 13.8 mil , 2006-07 15.1 mil., 2007-08 player option 16.3 mil = 2 yr 28.9 with opt out, 3 yr 45.2 mil

    Ron Artest (26) 2005-06 6.5 mil, 2006-07 7.1 mil , 2007-08 7.8 mil, 2008-09 player option 8.4 = 2yrs 13.6 mil , 3 yr 21.4 mil , play opt 4th yr 29.8 mil

    Right off the bat the imbalance in salary means 7.3 must be added from the Pacer side , plus I'm sure with Ron's history a #1 will have to be included.

    With Artest's supposive low trade value currently means a decent player like Fred Jones would have to be included too plus Pollards salary.

    We are now looking at Artest, F.Jones , Pollard and a #1 for Pierce.

    Plus with his opt out we may only have Pierce for 2 years. Sorry to me thats far too high a price to pay .
    wow...i wouldnt even do artest and pierce straight up

    let alone adding freddie, a pick, and scot

  12. #62
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    PacerFanAdam, you don't seen to value and appreciate what all Artest brings to the game. The defense, the energy, the physicallness, and the confidence that he provides to the team cannot be overstated.

    Let's also not forget the other things he brings to the table as well. The cheap shots, the sulking, the dirty play & the team turmoil that he provides to the team cannot be overstated.

    You can sit there and say that certain players are better players than Artest, but I think that is missing the point, the most important thing is the overall effect Ron has on a game. I admit it is difficult to quantitfy - but Ron helps his team win in so many ways, many more ways than almost any player in the NBA

    Also no player in the history of the NBA has cost his team more losses than Ron Artest did this last year. He helped his team lose in so many ways, many more ways than any player in the NBA.

    He's a top 10 player, no doubt in my mind.
    He wasn't evena bottom 10 talent for every game but 7 last season.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  13. #63
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    My prior post was in response to whether Artest is a top ten player, so I narrowly addressed that. I did not get into what effect his distractions have on him being a top ten player.

    If you consider he only played 7 games, he might have been the 226 most procutive player this past season.

  14. #64
    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    He wasn't evena bottom 10 talent for every game but 7 last season.
    peck....i respect u...and thats why i ask this question....

    when u speak of artest....its like u become someone other than urself....

    u dont speak of opponents players the way you do of artest...in fact u never speak like u do when u discuss artest....its just so, so far out of character for u....

    why?....theres a fine line between love and hate, i know....but its almost like the sheer mention of artest seems to just hit a button and u become some other person....the obvious negative emotion u feel towards him just seems to be so out of character....

    and i cant understand, why...these types of emotions are usually only reserved for very personal relationships....its almost like u react like a woman scorned would....but im assuming thats far from the truth....

    so, again, im curious....why is it so personal with u where ron is concerned versus ur typical take on all other players and issues-a usually fairly unbiased and rational approach....im just very intriqued how a basketball player of any kind can evoke such a dramatic, somewhat irrational response from someone that appears to be just the opposite....

    so again, i ask with all due respect....why?

  15. #65
    canyoufeelit
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    Yeah! #226! Whoo!

    If he's a top ten player, then he's #10. He's not a top 5 player and he's not a franchise player, period. He's the opposite of a franchise player. I tend to value big guys higher and I also judge by what they did THIS season, so here's the list:

    1. Shaq
    2. Duncan
    3. Garnett
    4. Dirk
    5. Amare (interchangable with #4)
    6. Allen Iverson
    7. LeBron James
    8. Dwyane Wade
    9. Tracy McGrady
    10. Kobe Bryant

    Then the rest is kind of a gray area. Steve Nash? Shaun Marion? Elton Brand, Gil Arenas, or J-Kidd? Ray Allen? I would be hard pressed to rank Artest ahead of the first 10 especially, but I don't think I could rank him ahead of these guys either.

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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    Pierce is not a good fit for the Pacers, will never be a Pacer and is in general overrated, why else would teams trade him yet again?
    I don't believe that he has ever been traded has he? Maybe you are confusing him with Walker. Anyway, as far as his attitude goes, I would probably have a poor one if I was stuck on such crapy teams as he has been on. Not to mention the coaching changes every 2 years. I think under Rick he would improve his attitude. Heck, just knowing he was going to be on a winner would have to help. Is he as talented as Ron? No. But what he has between the ears is sounder, which makes him the safer player to have.

    We may all think Ron was screwed in his suspension this past season, but he made that bed himself. As I try to teach my kids, your reputation is everything. When you earn a bad one it only hurts you. Ron is going to be on probation, stated or not, for the rest of his career. The team has to question how much they can trust him to not implode and screw them again. I know I don't trust him right now, but I hope he comes back and proves me wrong.

  17. #67
    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by canyoufeelit
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    Yeah! #226! Whoo!

    If he's a top ten player, then he's #10. He's not a top 5 player and he's not a franchise player, period. He's the opposite of a franchise player. I tend to value big guys higher and I also judge by what they did THIS season, so here's the list:

    1. Shaq
    2. Duncan
    3. Garnett
    4. Dirk
    5. Amare (interchangable with #4)
    6. Allen Iverson
    7. LeBron James
    8. Dwyane Wade
    9. Tracy McGrady
    10. Kobe Bryant

    Then the rest is kind of a gray area. Steve Nash? Shaun Marion? Elton Brand, Gil Arenas, or J-Kidd? Ray Allen? I would be hard pressed to rank Artest ahead of the first 10 especially, but I don't think I could rank him ahead of these guys either.

  18. #68
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    I have a really hard time putting a player in the top ten if they are a defensive liability, and I refuse to put a player in the top 5 if they are a defensive liability

    Sorry, Dirk, sorry Nash, sorry Amare, sorry Iverson

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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade
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    I think some of you haven't seen Ronnie play in so long that your last image of him has skewed your perception of his game. Ron Artest is very arguably a Top 10 player -- Top 15 AT WORST. Don't confuse your anger/disappointment at Ronnie with his game. There's a reason we were titled a championship contender with him, and lost w/o him.
    Like I said, he is very likely a top 10/15 talent, but NOWHERE NEAR a top 10/15 player. If Ron were a top 15 player, he would actually play the games, and we would never be worrying about how all the stupid ***** he does affects the team.

    If Ron were a top 15 player, we'd probably still be playing right now.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Talking Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    All the debate of Ron for Pierce I believe is ultimately moot as Ainge would almost never ship Pierce to eastern conference team, especially a contending
    one like the Pacers. And especially not to a team with Bird as the GM.
    IF the Pacers could get Pierce in my dream scenario I would give up
    Jackson and Pollard and a 1st. Wait a minute, if I am going to dream, dream BIG. Bender and Croshere should do the trick.

    I guess a question we should ask ourselves is would the Pacers have made it to the finals with Pierce added to this years roster with Artest out?
    Now that is something to ponder. Of course Pollard and the number 1 would be
    gone probably.


    owl

  21. #71
    foretaz
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    artest was 3rd team all nba and DPOY in the 2003-04 season...that would be a good argument for him being in the top 15....

    some of u people who seem to have this great disdain for artest should do this:

    pick a sf that you would rather have if ur gonna play a game against any opponent that gives u a better chance to win that game....forget all the personal feelings and whatever....ur supposed to be pacers fans...you dont have to love everyone on the team....but pick the sf that gives the pacers the best chance to win any given game....pure basketball....

    odds of picking a player that gives them a better chance to win are slim...let alone being able to get that player....one might argue lebron or something-which is whole other debate-because u want ron on ur team because he can neutralize that other great sf-something they really cant do to him....

    artest gives the pacers the best chance to win a game at the sf spot, which translates into regular season victories and then playoff victories...u look at his salary and it just makes it that much clearer of an argument....

    yes...he needs to be on the floor to do that...but though he sat out last season due to suspension....the odds of him having something like that happen again are astronomical....he played the whole season prior basically without incident...and last season was a fluke...and anyone that cant see that isnt being very objective....the things that had to transpire for him to miss the season were simply bizarre...

    if u hate him fine....if u are the type that simply cant forgive...fine...i have my own feelings on that -but theyre irrelevant....hes a pacer...and he gives ur pacers a great chance to win games and he brings an effort to every game that is unsurpassed in the nba-something that many of u whine so much about when it comes to other players....

    he has his faults like all humans....dont hate him for it...u dont have to love...just dont hate him...love the team...and realize all the positives he brings instead of dwelling on the few negatives....every player has negatives....and dwelling on them is counterproductive....i thought trolls were the ones that typically like to continue to spout off about a teams little problems....

  22. #72
    Member SycamoreKen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    artest was 3rd team all nba and DPOY in the 2003-04 season...that would be a good argument for him being in the top 15....

    he brings an effort to every game that is unsurpassed in the nba-something that many of u whine so much about when it comes to other players....

    he has his faults like all humans....dont hate him for it...u dont have to love...just dont hate him...love the team...and realize all the positives he brings instead of dwelling on the few negatives....every player has negatives....and dwelling on them is counterproductive....i thought trolls were the ones that typically like to continue to spout off about a teams little problems....
    First, Bruce Bowan was 2nd vote getter for DPY and I wouldn't put him anywhere near the top players in the league, so that alone is not enough. Second, while Ron does give max effort every game, he isn't the only guy in the leqague that does nor does this energy always used positively for the team. If he is all out but out of control it does no good. I'm not just talking being wacky, but also making good basketball decisions.

    Your last statement that I highlighted is the most important one. If you consider Ron's emotional control, or lack there of, to be a little problem for this team then I need some of what you are taking. This next season is going hinge on this more than anything else. Tins and J.O. being healthy won't matter if Ron has not changed. We don't have Reggie to bail us out, so after Ron it doesn't look good.

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    Member BigDawg44's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    why cant we be friends why cant we be friends! sorry, just felt like breaking into song haha

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    Default Re: Pierce Being Shopped

    Here is my feel on all this.

    Ron Artest is going to shock a lot of people this season, because I believe his real breakout season was delayed. I think last year he was on his way to the best season on both sides of the ball that he had ever had. I also think he would have been a second teamer this past season. When I saw the way he took the team on his shoulders to start the season in the 7 games with Jermaine, Reggie, Jeff and Anthony hurt, I was shocked. I saw a new player. When he wasn't there for the two games Rick benched him for... We weren't the same team. He showed me that he was the best player on the team and that he was ready to take the team to new heights. If i'm not mistaken, we won all 7 games he played this year... correct?

    He is going to have a breakout year this season regaining the DPOY award and averaging 20+ points a game. Then you'll all be glad we didn't trade him.

  25. #75
    foretaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen
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    First, Bruce Bowan was 2nd vote getter for DPY and I wouldn't put him anywhere near the top players in the league, so that alone is not enough. Second, while Ron does give max effort every game, he isn't the only guy in the leqague that does nor does this energy always used positively for the team. If he is all out but out of control it does no good. I'm not just talking being wacky, but also making good basketball decisions.

    ron was dpoy in addition to 3rd team all nba....the all nba teams are roughly speaking the best 15 players in the league...with the first team being roughly the best 5...2nd team being the next best 5 etc....him being 3rd team all nba combined with dpoy makes for a very good argument when saying hes one of the top 15...

    only a handful of players in the league 'bring it' like ron does every nite....his level of intensity on both ends of the floor is quite impressive...and i stated it was unsurpassed and not interested in arguing whether its matched or not-its really not important...when a player of his talents comes with that sort of intensity every nite....well it speaks volumes...

    as far as him being wacky....and his basketball decisions...there is a reason hes an allstar, all nba, and dpoy...because those that truly understand the game realize that when u bring that level of intensity every nite there are bound to be times that maybe it gets a little out of focus....you play that close to the edge and things will go south every once in a while...however its the exception and not the rule...and the overall performance-as with any player-is what counts...and his overall performance on both ends of the floor is seldom matched in this league

    people should use the same barometer with ron as they do other players....noone excuses ron for his inappropriate behavior....he has made more than his fair share of mistakes....but he seems to be improving...and it is quite likely he will have a season much like the season from two years ago as far as extracurricular activities go-and will probably have a monster season as far as production goes-which will go a long way in helping the pacers achieve their team goals....and hopefully go a long way in quieting those that seem to have such disdain for artest-though im not gonna hold my breath


    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen
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    Your last statement that I highlighted is the most important one. If you consider Ron's emotional control, or lack there of, to be a little problem for this team then I need some of what you are taking. This next season is going hinge on this more than anything else. Tins and J.O. being healthy won't matter if Ron has not changed. We don't have Reggie to bail us out, so after Ron it doesn't look good.
    do u really honestly believe that everything that has happened to ron wont have a profound effect on him? seriously, how could anyone think that events similar to what happened last year will take place again-let alone that he will react the same way....he lost five million dollars and has been embarassed and had a huge part of his life taken away...it only stands to reason that he will be aware of the behavior issues that caused this and will have bettered them...hes not a monster like some of u like to make him out to be...hes a human like all of us....i wish some of u would keep this in mind and put urself in his shoes

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