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Thread: The Pacers have never had that one player

  1. #26
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    Even if I thought replacing Jordan with Reggie on that Bulls team still meant the titles (and I am by no means sold on that, but I could see it to an extent), it doesn't make an argument of Reggie being as good or better than Jordan. I think Reggie might have been "just good enough" of a SG to go with those players to win titles. Jordan was "enough and them some more" of what they needed.

    Again, that's if Reggie leading them would have worked. If not, I think the difference between them is still the same.

    I guess what I'm saying is if you were to rate players on a scale of 1 to 10, Jordan would be a 10, Reggie at his best would be an 8.
    Ah yes i agree then! peace

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    OK.......so Reggie has the most clutch shots ever made, let's look at those shots.

    1994: 25 fourth quarter points in game 5 against NY......Pacers LOSE the series.

    1995: 8 points in 8 seconds in game 1 against NY....Pacers win the series in game 7(Pacers had a 3-1 series lead, and almost blew the series)

    1998: Shot against the Bulls in game 4.....Pacers LOSE series

    2000: Reggie was awesome, are their any specific shots to remember outside of that late 3 against Milwaukee? No, but Reggie TOOK OVER GAMES, which is much more important than hitting a shot

    2002: long 3 against NJ, Pacers LOSE series because Reggie was the only one playing that game.

    2004: 3 against Detroit in game 1, Pacers LOSE the series

    So what's more important? Hitting some clutch shots, or taking over entire games. A good number of Reggie's most memorable events are in series the Pacers didn't even win. I would rather have Jordan's taking over games and willing series wins, than a good number of "clutch" shots.

    Reggie was the man in 2000, because that's when he took over. He made sure the Pacers weren't going to lose to Milwaukee in game 5, or NY in game 6. Thats would I would have loved to have seen more in 1994 and 1995, instead of a few "clutch" shots.

    It takes a lot for you to be satisfied. Doesn't it?

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by pacerwaala
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    It takes a lot for you to be satisfied. Doesn't it?

    I'm just giving examples as to why Jordan was the better player, though I had once thought it was something that would never be debated.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    This is amusing.

    Anyway, I asked this a while ago...

    Doesn't Travis Best (my arch-enemy, BTW) have the only Series-winning shot in Pacers/ NBA history?

    Chuck Person, to the best of my knowledge, had the only other attempt at a series-winning shot in Pacers/ NBA history, back in 1991. And he rushed it even though he had plenty of time.

    This whole 'clutch' concept always makes me chuckle, because there are plenty of us that remember when Reggie would disappear in the fourth quarter, and Chuck (and later Detlef) was the team's Mr. Clutch. Reggie was in his sixth or seventh season before he was even the first option at crunch time.

    Rik Smits was supposed to have two chances at series-winning shots in 1996, but Jackson missed him (Rik was held) on both entry passes.

    Reggie was clutch, no doubt about it. But it was usually "early" in a playoff series. (Exception, Game #5 vs. NJ in 2002, although Kevin Ollie became NJ's best player in the second overtime, negating an opportunity at a series-winning attempt). As much as I hate to admit it, Jordan had his share of series-winning (championship-winning) shots (and series-winning assists when teams sent all five guys at him on the last play.) Jordan, IMO, is the *one* guy that was more 'clutch' than Reggie.

    Am I forgetting any other series-winning shots/ attempts from the Pacers?

    Here's an interesting tangent, Derrick and Dale had more clutch series-winning stops on the defensive end of the court.

    One could argue that Derrick and Dale were 'more clutch' on defense than Reggie was on offense. Of course, for thier first series-winning defensive stop, Patrick was allowed to climb Dale's back for the put-back. But wasn't it Derrick that hit the back-to-back three's in the last two minutes of Game #7 in 1994 to keep it close?
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Exactly.

    I just think Reggie is overrated as far as "clutch". Some call him "the greatest clutch player in NBA history" and that is just false.

    Yeah he hit big shots, but as you pointed out, Jay, most of Reggies greatest clutch moments were in early games.

    I just wish Reggie would have taken over games more in his career like he did in the 2000 playoffs.

  6. #31
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Exactly.

    I just think Reggie is overrated as far as "clutch". Some call him "the greatest clutch player in NBA history" and that is just false.

    Yeah he hit big shots, but as you pointed out, Jay, most of Reggies greatest clutch moments were in early games.

    I just wish Reggie would have taken over games more in his career like he did in the 2000 playoffs.
    Here we go again... Reggie is a "shooter" ok? The best and the most productive one in NBA History aswell.... MJ is a "slasher" ok? The most productive one in NBA History and he had better all-round game... MJ is aswell the best player to EVER play BBall in the Universe...

    Ok, now when u gona choose TWO of the best Shooting Guards in History who would u pick ? Since there is TWO kind of SGs, Shooters & Slashers... MJ is Number 1, Reggie Number 2... Or u can just put another "Slasher" Shooting Guard on #2 but that wouldnt be Fair...

    So, as u can see... Pacers had "That One Player", but NEVER had "THAT ONE TEAM"

  7. #32
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    I agree I would want Jordan to have the ball in his hands at clutch time over anyone, with one exception. If a three was needed to win or tie I would give the ball to Reggie.

    EDIT> I just thought of another exception. It would depend on the amount of time left on the clock. Less than two seconds left and a two pointer needed to tie or win. Again I give the ball to Reggie.

  8. #33
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ptmiller
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    Here we go again... Reggie is a "shooter" ok? The best and the most productive one in NBA History aswell.... MJ is a "slasher" ok? The most productive one in NBA History and he had better all-round game... MJ is aswell the best player to EVER play BBall in the Universe...

    Ok, now when u gona choose TWO of the best Shooting Guards in History who would u pick ? Since there is TWO kind of SGs, Shooters & Slashers... MJ is Number 1, Reggie Number 2... Or u can just put another "Slasher" Shooting Guard on #2 but that wouldnt be Fair...

    So, as u can see... Pacers had "That One Player", but NEVER had "THAT ONE TEAM"



    When your "best player" relies on a triple-screen and precision passing just to get his shot, you've got a great Pacers' team of the mid-to-late-1990s (Jackson, Jalen and Derrick with the passing; Dale, Tony, Derrick and Rik with the triple screens; Rik and Jalen -and to a lesser extent, Mullin, Perkins, Jackson and Best- with the offensive presence to take some pressure off Reggie; Dale and Tony to control the paint and boards; Derrick, Dale and Tony to cover for defensive weaknesses from Reggie, Jackson, Jalen and Rik; etc.)

    The one thing the Pacers had during Reggie's prime was a well-oiled, perhaps overachieving team. What they didn't have was one player that could take over a game by himself, scoring at-will. Reggie could take over a game at times, but he needed triple-screens and Jackson's passing to do so. In other words, the entire team was built around maximizing Reggie's strenghts. Guys like Derrick, Jackson, Tony and Rik happily (well, until Tony wanted to start they were happy) set aside individual agendas in order to make that a true team.

    I think your premise is really flawed. I've always thought that Reggie's surrounding cast was superior to Jordan's. I thought Pippen was overrated because Jordan made everyone around him better. All-star, absolutely. All-NBA/ Dream-team worthy and one of the fifty best of all time? No way. Rodman and Grant were helpful but limited. Harper, Kerr, Paxson, Brown, Kukoc, Armstrong, etc. were all just role players that complemented Jordan and happened to play the best ball of thier careers feasting off his table scraps.

    I know you love Reggie and that's fine, but you spend a lot of time disrespecting the rest of Reggie's teams without logic or reason to back it up. I can understand guys from that team like Derrick driving Peck to call him "Satan" or my impatience with Dale "The original Oven Mitts" Davis and Travis "All he does is just pound the damn ball" Best. But that was truly a "team", the "whole" was greater than "the sum of the parts" not just a collection of individual pieces - which is one of the most common criticisims of the current Pacers *and* many of the other teams in the leauge.

    I agree with Will. If I need a shot in less than two seconds, or if I need a three-pointer, I'm going to Reggie (assuming Jerry West is not available). Otherwise, I'm not picking Reggie, but I'll probably pick that prick that wore #33 for the Green Guys. Worst case scenario, he's double-teamed and he gives it to that prick that wore #32 for the Green Guys.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  9. #34
    ImCrazyB
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Hey, If we are talking about clutch players lets not forget Larry Bird..The guy had more clutch shots then MJ and Reg.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by 8.9_seconds
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    I honestly believe that if Reggie had been a Chicago bull, and Michael an Indiana Pacer, their life and team roles would be totally reversed.
    And the Pacers would have won six championships, not the Bulls.

    By the way, no team in the world could EVER turn Michael Jordan into a 3 point shooting, no defense, one dimensional player.



    8.9 Seconds and 3ptmiller..... how old are you guys?

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    When your "best player" relies on a triple-screen and precision passing just to get his shot, you've got a great Pacers' team of the mid-to-late-1990s (Jackson, Jalen and Derrick with the passing; Dale, Tony, Derrick and Rik with the triple screens; Rik and Jalen -and to a lesser extent, Mullin, Perkins, Jackson and Best- with the offensive presence to take some pressure off Reggie; Dale and Tony to control the paint and boards; Derrick, Dale and Tony to cover for defensive weaknesses from Reggie, Jackson, Jalen and Rik; etc.)

    The one thing the Pacers had during Reggie's prime was a well-oiled, perhaps overachieving team. What they didn't have was one player that could take over a game by himself, scoring at-will. Reggie could take over a game at times, but he needed triple-screens and Jackson's passing to do so. In other words, the entire team was built around maximizing Reggie's strenghts. Guys like Derrick, Jackson, Tony and Rik happily (well, until Tony wanted to start they were happy) set aside individual agendas in order to make that a true team.

    I think your premise is really flawed. I've always thought that Reggie's surrounding cast was superior to Jordan's. I thought Pippen was overrated because Jordan made everyone around him better. All-star, absolutely. All-NBA/ Dream-team worthy and one of the fifty best of all time? No way. Rodman and Grant were helpful but limited. Harper, Kerr, Paxson, Brown, Kukoc, Armstrong, etc. were all just role players that complemented Jordan and happened to play the best ball of thier careers feasting off his table scraps.

    I know you love Reggie and that's fine, but you spend a lot of time disrespecting the rest of Reggie's teams without logic or reason to back it up. I can understand guys from that team like Derrick driving Peck to call him "Satan" or my impatience with Dale "The original Oven Mitts" Davis and Travis "All he does is just pound the damn ball" Best. But that was truly a "team", the "whole" was greater than "the sum of the parts" not just a collection of individual pieces - which is one of the most common criticisims of the current Pacers *and* many of the other teams in the leauge.

    I agree with Will. If I need a shot in less than two seconds, or if I need a three-pointer, I'm going to Reggie (assuming Jerry West is not available). Otherwise, I'm not picking Reggie, but I'll probably pick that prick that wore #33 for the Green Guys. Worst case scenario, he's double-teamed and he gives it to that prick that wore #32 for the Green Guys.

    I agree with everything you said, except that about Pippen.

    Pippen proved he was one of the top players in the game when MJ was out in 1993-1994 and most of 1994-1995. Pippen led the Bulls to game 7 against the heavily favored New York Knicks in 1994. Pippen in his prime was one of the best players in the game. But outside of Pip, like you said, the Bulls role players were just average players that looked good because Jordan made them look good.

    and to respond to 3ptmiller.

    I think the definition of "clutch" gets twisted around. Alot say that Reggie is teh greatest "clutch" player because he has hit alot of shots with hardly any time left. I think the true definition of clutch is being able to take over games and will your teams to victory like MJ and Bird did.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ptmiller
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    You can not say that MJ was better than Reggie and you can not say that Reggie was better than MJ..
    You can, without a doubt, every time, say Jordan was better than Reggie.

    Good grief.....

    A better question might be.... who was better... Reggie or Scottie?

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Alot say that Reggie is teh greatest "clutch" player because he has hit alot of shots with hardly any time left.
    I would amend that by saying that many people include Reggie in the discussion of great clutch players. Can't say I've heard too many people actually call him the greatest clutch player ever, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    I think the true definition of clutch is being able to take over games and will your teams to victory like MJ and Bird did.
    And that's the reason why. There are too many guys like Jordan, Magic and Bird who were bigger clutch players, easy.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    When your "best player" relies on a triple-screen and precision passing just to get his shot, you've got a great Pacers' team of the mid-to-late-1990s (Jackson, Jalen and Derrick with the passing; Dale, Tony, Derrick and Rik with the triple screens; Rik and Jalen -and to a lesser extent, Mullin, Perkins, Jackson and Best- with the offensive presence to take some pressure off Reggie; Dale and Tony to control the paint and boards; Derrick, Dale and Tony to cover for defensive weaknesses from Reggie, Jackson, Jalen and Rik; etc.)

    The one thing the Pacers had during Reggie's prime was a well-oiled, perhaps overachieving team. What they didn't have was one player that could take over a game by himself, scoring at-will. Reggie could take over a game at times, but he needed triple-screens and Jackson's passing to do so. In other words, the entire team was built around maximizing Reggie's strenghts. Guys like Derrick, Jackson, Tony and Rik happily (well, until Tony wanted to start they were happy) set aside individual agendas in order to make that a true team.

    I think your premise is really flawed. I've always thought that Reggie's surrounding cast was superior to Jordan's. I thought Pippen was overrated because Jordan made everyone around him better. All-star, absolutely. All-NBA/ Dream-team worthy and one of the fifty best of all time? No way. Rodman and Grant were helpful but limited. Harper, Kerr, Paxson, Brown, Kukoc, Armstrong, etc. were all just role players that complemented Jordan and happened to play the best ball of thier careers feasting off his table scraps.

    I know you love Reggie and that's fine, but you spend a lot of time disrespecting the rest of Reggie's teams without logic or reason to back it up. I can understand guys from that team like Derrick driving Peck to call him "Satan" or my impatience with Dale "The original Oven Mitts" Davis and Travis "All he does is just pound the damn ball" Best. But that was truly a "team", the "whole" was greater than "the sum of the parts" not just a collection of individual pieces - which is one of the most common criticisims of the current Pacers *and* many of the other teams in the leauge.

    I agree with Will. If I need a shot in less than two seconds, or if I need a three-pointer, I'm going to Reggie (assuming Jerry West is not available). Otherwise, I'm not picking Reggie, but I'll probably pick that prick that wore #33 for the Green Guys. Worst case scenario, he's double-teamed and he gives it to that prick that wore #32 for the Green Guys.


    I could not agree more

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    I agree with everything you said, except that about Pippen.

    Pippen proved he was one of the top players in the game when MJ was out in 1993-1994 and most of 1994-1995. Pippen led the Bulls to game 7 against the heavily favored New York Knicks in 1994. Pippen in his prime was one of the best players in the game. But outside of Pip, like you said, the Bulls role players were just average players that looked good because Jordan made them look good.
    I've slept since then, but I'm pretty sure I've got the facts right: In 1992, there were three forwards in the NBA to average 19, 7, and 7. (Maybe it was 19-5-5, don't have time to look it up.) Two of them played on the dream team (Bird, Pippen). The third guy played for the Pacers: Chuck Person.

    If Chuck didn't belong on the Dream Team, and I'm not saying he did, then neither did Scottie. Because Chuck didn't put up those numbers playing alongside Jordan. He, like Bird, did it against the oppenent's defensive focus.

    When I play word-association, Scottie Pippen matches over-rated. As I said above, All-star, yes. Dream-teamer/ 50 greatest, no.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
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    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #41
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Chuck person averaged 18.5 points, 4.7 assists, and 5.3 rebounds in 1991-1992. Never did Chuck average 5 assists.

    Bird averaged 20.2 points, 9.6 rebounds, and 6.8 assists

    Pip averaged 21 points, 7.7 rebounds, and 7 assists

    Chuck was close to Pippen, but Pippen was a little more complete of a player than Chuck Person was. Just a tiny, tiny bit better. I wish I would have been able to watch Chuck play, but I'm too young of a Pacers fan to be able to remember his time here.

    I was mainly responding to your questioning of Pip of being All-NBA. I think Pip warranted his all nba selection in 1993-1994 when he was the leader of the Bulls, and took them to 7 games against the mighty Knicks in the conference semis.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    nevermind pippen was one of the greatest defensive players in history. In that category alone, there's a gap between him and person the size of mexico.

    I suppose being able to guard 4 positions on defense, and play 4 positions on offense, is overrated......

    The guy once led his team in FIVE statistical categories. Points, blocks, assists, rebounds, and steals.

    In his one full year without Jordan, Pippen finished 2nd in MVP voting.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    So, do we agree that BOTH Jordan and Pippen were better than Reggie?

    Good.


  19. #44
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train
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    You can, without a doubt, every time, say Jordan was better than Reggie.

    Good grief.....

    A better question might be.... who was better... Reggie or Scottie?
    No u just cant say that.. against EVERY player in BBall history u can say that MJ was better than any Shooting Guard but not Reggie... Regg possesed something that MJ would only dream OF to be best at... Shooting... Thats a talent u only get borned with and Reggie was the best player from SG position BASED ON SHOOTING.. MJ was the best BASED ON SLASHING.. Both the most Productive/Effective SGs on offense in NBA History... Its just like that!

    Scottie better than Reggie? Well, he just had OK offense and was a great Defensive player hangin with the best Player and one of the best Teams and Coachs in NBA History... Why not then just compare Toni Kukoc vs Reggie if u gona go after accomplishment because we all know that Pippen would probably never be a Hall Of Famer if he went to another team and with no rings... because we all know that there were better SmallForwards than him in NBA that never reached the Hall Of Fame....

    Reggie reached the HOF without any rings or without any powerfull team.. since he IS infact the 2nd best Scorer in NBA History from SG Position and the BEST Shooter ever and best Clutch shooter ever... and he is still underrated and by his own Fans aswell...

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    odd, i could have sworn jordan holds the finals record for most threes in a half......

    oh wait, he does.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  21. #46
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    So whats your point!?!?? Are u being sarcastic? Is he a great shooter just because MJ got lucky once in his life? Kobe holds the record with 12 3s in a game and shoots with like 20% accuracy from there? Did u knew that Shaq once hit a 3... Did u knew that Shaq once hit 5 FreeThrows in a row? LOL? Does that make them better Shooters than Reggie ever was?

    What i mean is that Reggie was the most Productive Scoring Long Distance Shooter with the highest accuracy in NBA History, now u can go to NBA.com or whatever and check it out... MJ could shoot yes, but from MidRange and at 42% accuracy (Reggie did that just by shooting 26 foot Jumpers)...

    I cant believe u guys, its just like saying "Reggie could also dunk! He was better than MJ!"... Its Insane!!!!

    THe point is that a Player like MJ jacks up 30 Attempts per game, eventually sooner or later they WILL Fall in with great accuracy...

    I mean, Reggie scored 57 Points with only 29 attempts and MJ scored 69 points with like 45 Attempts? Does that make Reggie a better scorer?? Comon!! Thats my point, Reggie was a better accurate Shooter and the most productive one from SG position... end of discussion.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Is he a great shooter just because MJ got lucky once in his life?
    I seem to recall MJ getting "lucky" many times.....

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    comparing reggie to jordan is a losing battle in so many ways....the argument is over even before it begins....

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  24. #49
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    I seem to recall MJ getting "lucky" many times.....
    You seem also to recall that MJ hits so many 3s in a Half with that good accuracy every time? Tell me you are joking please... because i cant believe this, im really laughing now...

  25. #50
    3ptmiller
    Guest

    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    comparing reggie to jordan is a losing battle in so many ways....the argument is over even before it begins....
    Are u actually reading my posts? Read before u post something like that... Did i ever said that Reggie was better than Jordan? A person would be insane to say something like that... MJ was the best Player to ever play the game, but Reggie was a better shooter... whats the problem?

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