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Thread: The Pacers have never had that one player

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    Default The Pacers have never had that one player

    I've read several places on here, that the Pacers should try to build a team more like the Pistons if they want to win a championship.

    The Pistons are an extremely rare case.

    If you look at ANY modern championship team in the NBA, each of them had that one special player. That one player that was taken extremely early in the draft. That one player you can easily build an entire franchise on.

    The Pistons are the ONLY team that didn't have that one player. The Pistons are the exception to the rule. They won a championship with several very good players, but let's be honest, the Pistons don't have a top 5 player in the NBA, like any other modern championship team. We could argue all day about who Detroit's best player is. You can't count on building a championship squad like that. Did it work for the Pistons? Obviously, but like I said, they're an exception to the rule. Let's look at the past champions besides the 2004 Pistons.

    1999, 2003: Spurs(Duncan)
    2000-2002: Lakers(Shaq)
    1991-1993, 1996-1998: Bulls(Jordan)
    1994-1995: Rockets(Hakeem)
    1989-1990: Pistons(Isiah)
    1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988: Lakers (Magic)
    1981, 1984, 1986: Celtics
    1983: Sixers: (Dr. J)

    Isn't it fascinating that since 1980, only 7 franchises have won NBA championships? The Sixers were the only single time winner.

    That's every NBA champion since 1980. What do they all have in common? They had that one superstar, that one player you could count on to lead you to the promise land, that special guy who you knew would take over when the game was on the line. That's how you build a championship team. Outside of 2004, a team of "several good players", but no superior superstar never wins the championship.

    Let me clearly state that I am not knocking the Pistons at all. Their formula worked for THEM, but no other franchise can count on putting several very good players together like that and taking home the big prize.

    The Pacers have never had that special player. Reggie was an exciting player to watch. But let me clearly state, while he is a first ballot hall of famer, he was never one of THE BEST players in the NBA. The BEST meaning top 5 or so. Reggie found a niche, and road it for 18 years. That brought alot of excitement to Indiana, and it was a great ride. But Reggie was never a player that was on par with Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, whomever.

    Do the Pacers have that special player in Jermaine O'Neal? The answer to that question will determine the future of the Pacers for the next several years. JO has the talent, that's obvious. But if JO can turn into the perfect leader, the guy you can count on to take you all the way, then we may see a banner hanging from Conseco a couple of years down the road.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    it should be mentioned that this isn't the FIRST time the Pistons have pulled this off.

    The bad boys had all-stars, yeah. But so does this current one. They just dont get the acclaim, because they didnt have enough time in their younger years to make names for themselves.

    the 1989 Pistons didn't have a 20ppg scorer. They didnt have a 10-assist passer. They didnt even have a 10-rpg rebounder.

    That team had no dominant player. Just a bunch of stars that sacrificed to win. It irritates me that people say Isiah was the superstar of that team, because he was NO WHERE NEAR what he was in the early 80's. You could go entire GAMES and not realize he was on the court. Did he take the big shots? Yeah. But so does CHauncey Billups, does that make him a superstar?

    This team plays the exact same freaking team concept that the pistons of old did. Joe built the team the same way his old one was built.

    And by the way: check out the Spurs. Duncan is just another part of that team now, he doesn't dominate everything. They don't spread it out quite like the pistons do, but they come damn close.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    it should be mentioned that this isn't the FIRST time the Pistons have pulled this off.

    The bad boys had all-stars, yeah. But so does this current one. They just dont get the acclaim, because they didnt have enough time in their younger years to make names for themselves.

    the 1989 Pistons didn't have a 20ppg scorer. They didnt have a 10-assist passer. They didnt even have a 10-rpg rebounder.

    That team had no dominant player. Just a bunch of stars that sacrificed to win. It irritates me that people say Isiah was the superstar of that team, because he was NO WHERE NEAR what he was in the early 80's. You could go entire GAMES and not realize he was on the court. Did he take the big shots? Yeah. But so does CHauncey Billups, does that make him a superstar?

    This team plays the exact same freaking team concept that the pistons of old did. Joe built the team the same way his old one was built.

    And by the way: check out the Spurs. Duncan is just another part of that team now, he doesn't dominate everything. They don't spread it out quite like the pistons do, but they come damn close.

    The Duncan in 1999 and 2003 was a little more dominant than today, and that's the years the Spurs won their rings. Will they this year? That remains to be seen.

    You make a good point with the Pistons' title teams, but still, I think most people would agree that Isiah was the Pistons' best player. Was he really superior to anyone else on the team? No, but I think he was a little ahead of anyone else.

    With the 04 Detroit team, it's really impossible to decide who the best player in the team was, it's pretty easy with any other championship team.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    And by the way: check out the Spurs. Duncan is just another part of that team now, he doesn't dominate everything. They don't spread it out quite like the pistons do, but they come damn close.
    I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but this is a little misleading. The only argument about Duncan is whether is the best or the second best basketball player in the world. The fact that he is a good team player hardly diminishes this. Would the Spurs even make the playoffs if they didn't have Duncan? Maybe this year, but they would be out in 4 games. Check out this resume:

    2-time league MVP
    2-time finals MVP (the best player on the best team twice-- only Magic and Jordan have done that)
    All NBA first team every year he has been in the league (the first player since Bird)
    All Defensive team every year he has been in the league, and on the 1st team every year after his rookie season
    Rookie of the year

    I mean, is it even POSSIBLE to have a better personal resume? He's done more in his first 6 years than Jordan, for God's sake. He is hardly just a cog in that machine, he is the engine, the powertrain, and the wheels.

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    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    The Pacers have never had that special player. Reggie was an exciting player to watch. But let me clearly state, while he is a first ballot hall of famer, he was never one of THE BEST players in the NBA. The BEST meaning top 5 or so. Reggie found a niche, and road it for 18 years. That brought alot of excitement to Indiana, and it was a great ride. But Reggie was never a player that was on par with Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, whomever.


    I agree on everything you said, except this part, its super FOOLISH... Not just because it hurts me that you said that Reggie was NEVER one of the best players in the NBA. But you say that Reggie wasnt on par with Jordan etc. One thing you are forgetting is to ask yourself WHY? Why was Jordan winning all the time? Why is Shaq winning still all the time... Why didnt Miller get a ring? etc.

    Jordan was surrounded by dominant players at their position, all-stars & great players like Pippen, Rodman, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Paxson etc. Phil Jackson? Heck! He even had David Stern on his side overrating him... What would happen if Jordan switched place with Reggie? Would Jordan still get some rings without any great players in Indiana? I dont think so... Would Reggie be classified as the greatest player to ever play the game if he played with team and manage to get maybe even more rings? Reggie was almost Alone on Offense in his prime and STILL managed to get close so many times.

    Shaq (the best center today) had Kobe (one of the best SG) and they had Phil Jackson and a crazy team who always step up.
    Kobe does not have Shaq anymore right? He didnt even managed to get his team to the Playoffs...
    Shaq did switch team, but now he have even greater players in his team and they have big chance of being this years champions...

    Isiah? 90s? Pistons? = TEAM PLAY, TEAM OFFENSE/DEFENSE

    As u can see, its ALL about Team play my friend... Reggie NEVER had any All-Star player in his team, until it was to late, until he got old. But
    This year the Pacers was 100% Champions with that lineup we had, until November 19...

    Never understimate Greatness my friend, Reggie at 39 was so good than most of players in NBA will ever be. WTF are u talking about, Reggie was the most special player the Pacers will never have!

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ptmiller
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    I agree on everything you said, except this part, its super FOOLISH... Not just because it hurts me that you said that Reggie was NEVER one of the best players in the NBA. But you say that Reggie wasnt on par with Jordan etc. One thing you are forgetting is to ask yourself WHY? Why was Jordan winning all the time? Why is Shaq winning still all the time... Why didnt Miller get a ring? etc.

    Jordan was surrounded by dominant players at their position, all-stars & great players like Pippen, Rodman, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Paxson etc. Phil Jackson? Heck! He even had David Stern on his side overrating him... What would happen if Jordan switched place with Reggie? Would Jordan still get some rings without any great players in Indiana? I dont think so... Would Reggie be classified as the greatest player to ever play the game if he played with team and manage to get maybe even more rings? Reggie was almost Alone on Offense in his prime and STILL managed to get close so many times.

    Shaq (the best center today) had Kobe (one of the best SG) and they had Phil Jackson and a crazy team who always step up.
    Kobe does not have Shaq anymore right? He didnt even managed to get his team to the Playoffs...
    Shaq did switch team, but now he have even greater players in his team and they have big chance of being this years champions...

    Isiah? 90s? Pistons? = TEAM PLAY, TEAM OFFENSE/DEFENSE

    As u can see, its ALL about Team play my friend... Reggie NEVER had any All-Star player in his team, until it was to late, until he got old. But
    This year the Pacers was 100% Champions with that lineup we had, until November 19...

    Never understimate Greatness my friend, Reggie at 39 was so good than most of players in NBA will ever be. WTF are u talking about, Reggie was the most special player the Pacers will never have!

    I never said Reggie wasn't great, and I'm certainly not dishing him at all.

    But, let's all take our number 31 jerseys off for one second and answer this question.

    I was implying that Reggie was never a top 5 player. If someone would have asked you who the top 5 players in the NBA during any point of Reggie's 18 year career, could you have honestly listed Reggie as one of them?

    Come on.

    I certainly hope you aren't trying to equate Reggie to Jordan. Reggie would NOT be considered the greatest player in the game had he switched players with MJ, because Reggie simply wasn't as good as MJ.

    The stats aren't even close, while you could count on Reggie to hit some big shots, you could always count on MJ in the playoffs to WILL your team to victory. I'm not knocking Reggie, but MJ was the greatest player of the era. No matter who MJ played with, he was going to get rings. The players he had by his side were far from "dominant", as you implied. Outside of Pippen, they were all role players. Great players like MJ make role players shine.

    Reggie certainly was not alone on offense. Rik Smits was huge during the 1995 playoffs, outplaying Patrick Ewing. Are you forgetting Jalen Rose's scoring ability when he was here?

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    I never said Reggie wasn't great, and I'm certainly not dishing him at all.

    I certainly hope you aren't trying to equate Reggie to Jordan. Reggie would NOT be considered the greatest player in the game had he switched players with MJ, because Reggie simply wasn't as good as MJ.
    No I agree that your not dissing Reggie, but If Reggie would have had the supporting cast that Jordan had, He would have easily had MJ's rings on his Fingers right now.

    I in no way want to demean the careers or importance of Rik Smits,Sam Perkins, or Mark Jackson, they were all great players.However, Jordan had a help with the MONSTER rebounding of Dennis Rodman, the amazing help of Scottie Pippen (who never really got the apreciation he deserved), Harper,and Kerr.

    Both Reggie and Michael are outstanding clutch and franchise players, but the only thing that I think that MJ has on Reggie is the AWESOME dunking abilities. I honestly believe that if Reggie had been a Chicago bull, and Michael an Indiana Pacer, their life and team roles would be totally reversed.

    We can discuss this for years, but we would all still have the same opinion we started with.
    Life without water is tough, life without air is hard,life with one leg only is wobbly, Life without Reggie Miller, is impossible.

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    KING JAMES
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by 8.9_seconds
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    No I agree that your not dissing Reggie, but If Reggie would have had the supporting cast that Jordan had, He would have easily had MJ's rings on his Fingers right now.

    I in no way want to demean the careers or importance of Rik Smits,Sam Perkins, or Mark Jackson, they were all great players.However, Jordan had a help with the MONSTER rebounding of Dennis Rodman, the amazing help of Scottie Pippen (who never really got the apreciation he deserved), Harper,and Kerr.

    Both Reggie and Michael are outstanding clutch and franchise players, but the only thing that I think that MJ has on Reggie is the AWESOME dunking abilities. I honestly believe that if Reggie had been a Chicago bull, and Michael an Indiana Pacer, their life and team roles would be totally reversed.

    We can discuss this for years, but we would all still have the same opinion we started with.
    i don't really chime in tOo much, but all i can say to that is "WOW" i about choked on my popcorn chicken after reading that.

    i loved watching reggie miller play, and i understand where the bias comes in... but i just watched a player this year in LeBRON JAMES do more statistically in one season then reggie ever did in his career.
    he averaged more points, assist, rebounds, steals, and blocks then reggie ever came close to.

    and with that said he's still light years behind jordan, too me that makes reggie a bit further behind then LeBRON.. now if you want to talk about a body of work, and clutchness- well then it's JORDAN > REGGIE > lebron (incomplete)

    i'm not even saying lebron is on reggie's level, but i do know he is more of a complete all around player then reggie is.

    jordan was an all around player.. reggie was not... but he was darn good.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by KING JAMES
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    i don't really chime in tOo much, but all i can say to that is "WOW" i about choked on my popcorn chicken after reading that.

    i loved watching reggie miller play, and i understand where the bias comes in... but i just watched a player this year in LeBRON JAMES do more statistically in one season then reggie ever did in his career.
    he averaged more points, assist, rebounds, steals, and blocks then reggie ever came close to.

    and with that said he's still light years behind jordan, too me that makes reggie a bit further behind then LeBRON.. now if you want to talk about a body of work, and clutchness- well then it's JORDAN > REGGIE > lebron (incomplete)

    i'm not even saying lebron is on reggie's level, but i do know he is more of a complete all around player then reggie is.

    jordan was an all around player.. reggie was not... but he was darn good.
    respectable post, I see and understand what your saying.

    hehe I am pretty biased aren't I? Well I have been called the anti-indytoad before.
    Life without water is tough, life without air is hard,life with one leg only is wobbly, Life without Reggie Miller, is impossible.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by KING JAMES
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    i don't really chime in tOo much, but all i can say to that is "WOW" i about choked on my popcorn chicken after reading that.

    i loved watching reggie miller play, and i understand where the bias comes in... but i just watched a player this year in LeBRON JAMES do more statistically in one season then reggie ever did in his career.
    he averaged more points, assist, rebounds, steals, and blocks then reggie ever came close to.

    and with that said he's still light years behind jordan, too me that makes reggie a bit further behind then LeBRON.. now if you want to talk about a body of work, and clutchness- well then it's JORDAN > REGGIE > lebron (incomplete)

    i'm not even saying lebron is on reggie's level, but i do know he is more of a complete all around player then reggie is.

    jordan was an all around player.. reggie was not... but he was darn good.
    Yo

    You are forgetting that only half of it is "skill on the basketball court". The physical tools are necessary but they won't get you anywhere without the mental toughness. The remaining half of it is what you do off the court. The leadership skills, preparation, trusting teammates, help building team chemistry, being mentally tough, getting along with teammates who probably are jealous of you getting all the accolades, etc. There is a lot of off court pressures to deal with when you are an NBA superstar.

    So before you annoint Lebron, let us see how he handles the mental part of it.

    Reggie was no Michael Jordan but he and Patrick Ewing or Charles Barkely never had that second and third scorer/slash rebounder that MJ had. MJ had all the other intangibles(leadership) in addition to "skillz" which the Patrick and Charles lacked but they would have overcome those issues with better talent around them.

    No disrespect to Rik and Jalen but they never brought it every day and did not play on both ends of the court. Don't get me started on Jalen's defense, pouting, etc. He was so bad for team chemistry with all the broken plays. etc. Reggie definitely had a indomitable will and he brought it every night. He was definitely limited in the physical skills but succeded because of the mental part and the preparation.

    Bill Carwright Career Stats (13.2 ppg and 6.3 rpg)
    Rik Smits Career Stats (14.8 ppg and 6.1 rpg)

    and Bill was the not even in the the top three or four players on that Bulls Team. I will admit that Cartwright's stats are skewed by his Knick years but his rebounds were almost the same in the first three of Chicago's championship runs.

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    CA Pacer Fan A-Train's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by 8.9_seconds
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    I honestly believe that if Reggie had been a Chicago bull, and Michael an Indiana Pacer, their life and team roles would be totally reversed.
    And the Pacers would have won six championships, not the Bulls.

    By the way, no team in the world could EVER turn Michael Jordan into a 3 point shooting, no defense, one dimensional player.



    8.9 Seconds and 3ptmiller..... how old are you guys?

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    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    I never said Reggie wasn't great, and I'm certainly not dishing him at all.

    But, let's all take our number 31 jerseys off for one second and answer this question.

    I was implying that Reggie was never a top 5 player. If someone would have asked you who the top 5 players in the NBA during any point of Reggie's 18 year career, could you have honestly listed Reggie as one of them?

    Come on.
    Are u talking about accomplishment or overall skill on any position? If you are talking about accomplishment then you are absolutely right... Top5 not really, But he is the best shooter to accomplish the things he done...

    I certainly hope you aren't trying to equate Reggie to Jordan. Reggie would NOT be considered the greatest player in the game had he switched players with MJ, because Reggie simply wasn't as good as MJ.
    If its skill you are rating your players after... then he should be rated as one of the best SGs in History right after Jordan (even Larry Bird said so). Because there are Two kind of offensive Shooting Guards, you have slashers (and MJ was the best ever) and you have shooters (Reggie was no doubt the best ever)...
    You can not say that MJ was better than Reggie and you can not say that Reggie was better than MJ.. Reggie would make MJ look like a 10 year old girl when he outshoots him from just any distance even with his eyes closed, but MJ would kill Reggie on the low post because he is the best slasher ever...

    The stats aren't even close, while you could count on Reggie to hit some big shots, you could always count on MJ in the playoffs to WILL your team to victory. I'm not knocking Reggie, but MJ was the greatest player of the era.
    First of all, Reggie have probably the most Clutch shots made, think about that once. You could not count on MJ in the playoffs to WILL your victory, but you could count on The BULLS... is it so hard to understand that the man had a way better team than Reggie? Whats so hard to understand?

    No matter who MJ played with, he was going to get rings.
    Oh really? What other team did he went to? Washington? did you see any rings there? Think again!

    The players he had by his side were far from "dominant", as you implied. Outside of Pippen, they were all role players. Great players like MJ make role players shine.
    Pippen is a hall of Famer and probably the best Small Forward to play the game, Rodman is probably the best Hustlers ever and a future hall of famer, Toni Kukoc was an incredible shooter, clutch players, passer. And how could i forgot Ron Harper with his defense, Stever Kerr with the best shooting Accuracy... that team hade incredible offensive force, defensive force. All that combined with the best Coach ever?

    Reggie certainly was not alone on offense. Rik Smits was huge during the 1995 playoffs, outplaying Patrick Ewing. Are you forgetting Jalen Rose's scoring ability when he was here?
    Why are u saying this? Rik Smits was a overall good Center, nothing else... was he an all star? Was he a hall of famer? Sure tho! They could manage to something with him and Marc jackson, what about the rest of the team? Doesnt they have to bring something powerfull to?
    Jalen Rose wasnt either an All-Star.... MJ was surrounded by All-Stars and some great players and some underrated players who dominated at both ends of the floor. You cant NEVER compare Pacers team with MJs team...

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ptmiller
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    Are u talking about accomplishment or overall skill on any position? If you are talking about accomplishment then you are absolutely right... Top5 not really, But he is the best shooter to accomplish the things he done...



    If its skill you are rating your players after... then he should be rated as one of the best SGs in History right after Jordan (even Larry Bird said so). Because there are Two kind of offensive Shooting Guards, you have slashers (and MJ was the best ever) and you have shooters (Reggie was no doubt the best ever)...
    You can not say that MJ was better than Reggie and you can not say that Reggie was better than MJ.. Reggie would make MJ look like a 10 year old girl when he outshoots him from just any distance even with his eyes closed, but MJ would kill Reggie on the low post because he is the best slasher ever...


    First of all, Reggie have probably the most Clutch shots made, think about that once. You could not count on MJ in the playoffs to WILL your victory, but you could count on The BULLS... is it so hard to understand that the man had a way better team than Reggie? Whats so hard to understand?


    Oh really? What other team did he went to? Washington? did you see any rings there? Think again!


    Pippen is a hall of Famer and probably the best Small Forward to play the game, Rodman is probably the best Hustlers ever and a future hall of famer, Toni Kukoc was an incredible shooter, clutch players, passer. And how could i forgot Ron Harper with his defense, Stever Kerr with the best shooting Accuracy... that team hade incredible offensive force, defensive force. All that combined with the best Coach ever?


    Why are u saying this? Rik Smits was a overall good Center, nothing else... was he an all star? Was he a hall of famer? Sure tho! They could manage to something with him and Marc jackson, what about the rest of the team? Doesnt they have to bring something powerfull to?
    Jalen Rose wasnt either an All-Star.... MJ was surrounded by All-Stars and some great players and some underrated players who dominated at both ends of the floor. You cant NEVER compare Pacers team with MJs team...


    Actually, Rik Smits WAS an allstar in 1998. And Mark Jackson was one of the better point guards in the game.

    And I meant that no matter who Jordan was with in his prime, that he was going to win titles. I'm not talking about when he was 38-40 years old with Washington. No player is the same when they're in their late 30's as they were in the early 30's.

    You keep mentioning clutch shots. Yes Reggie made many "clutch" shots, but I'd take Jordan's 6 rings over Reggie's clutch shots.

    Michael Jordan WILLED teams to victory. You could count on him to dominate in must win games.

    Look at the failed must wins in Reggie's career.
    1994: Game 7 against NY
    1995: Game 7 against Orlando(12 points)
    1996: Game 5 against Atlanta(Reggie was hurt and played his *** off )
    1998: Game 7 against Chicago(lost to MJ's bulls)
    1999: Game 6 against NY(an embarassing 8 points)

    2000 was the only year I thought the Pacers played to their total potential. I'm not going to count 1996 since Reggie was out the first 4 games, and gave a heroic effort.

    I'm not knocking Reggie, I just don't think Reggie was able to will wins in must win situations as Jordan was. When the Bulls HAD to win, Jordan took over. Reggie willed the Pacers to must win victories in 2000. That's the only year I thought the Pacers played to their total potential.

    Reggie himself states in his book that in game 7 of the 1995 ECF's against Orlando, that Orlando did a great job defending him, and had someone on him everywhere he was. He only scored 12. Examples like this are the major difference between MJ and Reg. Do you think MJ would have let a team shut him down in a must win situation game 7? No way. MJ was just a much more complete, dominant player than Reggie Miller. I don't think Reggie had the capability to dominate an entire game as MJ did.

    Of course the Bulls had a great supporting cast. Every championship team does. But playing next to players like Jordan or Shaq MAKE you better.

    The purpose of the initial post was not to have a Reggie/Jordan debate(I didn't think there was a debate), but it was to imply that in order for the Pacers to win it all, Jermaine O'Neal must elevate his game, his maturity, and his leadership.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ptmiller
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    First of all, Reggie have probably the most Clutch shots made, think about that once. You could not count on MJ in the playoffs to WILL your victory, but you could count on The BULLS... is it so hard to understand that the man had a way better team than Reggie? Whats so hard to understand?

    Thank You!!!! What I've been trying to say!
    Life without water is tough, life without air is hard,life with one leg only is wobbly, Life without Reggie Miller, is impossible.

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    Veteran Austin Croshere, the longest-tenured Pacers player on the roster, has proven reliable when called upon, invariably ready to step in regardless of the circumstance.

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    CA Pacer Fan A-Train's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ptmiller
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    You can not say that MJ was better than Reggie and you can not say that Reggie was better than MJ..
    You can, without a doubt, every time, say Jordan was better than Reggie.

    Good grief.....

    A better question might be.... who was better... Reggie or Scottie?

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train
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    You can, without a doubt, every time, say Jordan was better than Reggie.

    Good grief.....

    A better question might be.... who was better... Reggie or Scottie?
    No u just cant say that.. against EVERY player in BBall history u can say that MJ was better than any Shooting Guard but not Reggie... Regg possesed something that MJ would only dream OF to be best at... Shooting... Thats a talent u only get borned with and Reggie was the best player from SG position BASED ON SHOOTING.. MJ was the best BASED ON SLASHING.. Both the most Productive/Effective SGs on offense in NBA History... Its just like that!

    Scottie better than Reggie? Well, he just had OK offense and was a great Defensive player hangin with the best Player and one of the best Teams and Coachs in NBA History... Why not then just compare Toni Kukoc vs Reggie if u gona go after accomplishment because we all know that Pippen would probably never be a Hall Of Famer if he went to another team and with no rings... because we all know that there were better SmallForwards than him in NBA that never reached the Hall Of Fame....

    Reggie reached the HOF without any rings or without any powerfull team.. since he IS infact the 2nd best Scorer in NBA History from SG Position and the BEST Shooter ever and best Clutch shooter ever... and he is still underrated and by his own Fans aswell...

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    I'd join in this discussion because my extreme hope is that the NBA is moving away from being star-driven to team-driven.

    But I'm too stunned at trying to deal with someone calling BJ Armstrong or Steve Kerr great players.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    I'd join in this discussion because my extreme hope is that the NBA is moving away from being star-driven to team-driven.

    But I'm too stunned at trying to deal with someone calling BJ Armstrong or Steve Kerr great players.

    I know, it was shocking to hear.

    But please, give some insight.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Reggie was almost Alone on Offense in his prime and STILL managed to get close so many times.
    Methinks you are not giving guys like Rik enough credit. IIRC, I always thought Rik Smits was the most important player on those teams. Reggie couldn't do it alone. When Smits was on, the Pacers almost always won. Jalen was a pretty good offensive player when he was here too, although he couldn't guard my grandma. Saying that Reggie was a one-man show offensively is a slap in the face to Reg's supporting cast from the 90s, IMO.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    I'd join in this discussion because my extreme hope is that the NBA is moving away from being star-driven to team-driven.

    But I'm too stunned at trying to deal with someone calling BJ Armstrong or Steve Kerr great players.
    .....and if you really think about it, Kucoc was overrated as hell. He could shoot and pass, but defensively, he made Dirk look like ron artest. He also rebounded like a WNBA small forward.

    I see Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman/Grant. Other than that, throw in 4 or 5 random role players and you win titles.

    I thought Bill Cartright was the worst center to win 3 straight titles.

    Until I trembled in terror of Luc Longly.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Hmm....I seem to recall a guy named Mark Jackson averaging 10 assists per game....I can assure you they weren't all to reggie.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  22. #22
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Hmm....I seem to recall a guy named Mark Jackson averaging 10 assists per game....I can assure you they weren't all to reggie.
    Well, there's the problem... Any of those 10 not going to Reggie is shots Reggie didn't get!

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    I had to stop reading when I got to this.

    You could not count on MJ in the playoffs to WILL your victory, but you could count on The BULLS...

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    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    I had to stop reading when I got to this.
    Eh ok? So you really think that MJ would still be the player he is/was today with bad players in his team? I meant it that way, not that MJ sux and that u cant count on him when the game is on the line... MJ was the greatest player in my mind, but i seriously doubt if he had bad team that he would still be loyal to his team and stay and be "counted"? or be that "great" he is/was by switching teams 24 / 7 to chase that Ring. Would people still "count" on him? Not many players are like Reggie.... and i just wanted to say some of the importance from a Team!

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    Default Re: The Pacers have never had that one player

    Even if I thought replacing Jordan with Reggie on that Bulls team still meant the titles (and I am by no means sold on that, but I could see it to an extent), it doesn't make an argument of Reggie being as good or better than Jordan. I think Reggie might have been "just good enough" of a SG to go with those players to win titles. Jordan was "enough and them some more" of what they needed.

    Again, that's if Reggie leading them would have worked. If not, I think the difference between them is still the same.

    I guess what I'm saying is if you were to rate players on a scale of 1 to 10, Jordan would be a 10, Reggie at his best would be an 8.

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