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Thread: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Whether or not this roster fits together.

    We have the talent, we have the coach's, but does it all fit together.

    You will all be in relative peace & quiet for the next few days because the Diamond one & myself are getting ready to get on a plane for D.C. for the weekend.

    We will return on Tuesday & I will give my wrap up of the overall team status then.

    But till then I want ideas on this thread about how you all feel that it fits together.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    It's a dysfunctional family, or gives every appearance of such.

    All the parts are there but is seems more like a family with no real "father-figure" to keep everyone in line....kinda like the Osbourns.

    IM we need stronger leadership,leveler heads, and another big body to help keep us out of the Fatigue Zone.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    I'm not upset with it as is. We obviously have a lot of talent.

    I do agree though that we could have more chemistry problems next year than injuries this year. We seem to be at a crossroads of going forward and leading the best or falling on our faces due to lack of leadership and overabundance of knuckleheadedness. If the latter, expect quick and sharp changes from LB, and I'm not talking about leaving Croshere at the airport.

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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    DC ehh..........enjoy the vacation
    D.C. is great! It's one of the most fantastic vacations spots there is. You could spend weeks in the Smithsonian. I mean, they've got a damn ROCKET hanging from the CEILING! It's great. Plus, it's really beautiful in spring.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    24 Jonathan Bender...Gone
    44 Austin Croshere...Gone
    32 Dale Davis...
    54 John Edwards...Gone
    10 Jeff Foster...
    4 Eddie Gill...
    13 David Harrison...
    1 Stephen Jackson...
    8 Anthony Johnson...
    20 Fred Jones...
    33 James Jones..
    7 Jermaine O'Neal...
    62 Scot Pollard...Gone
    11 Jamaal Tinsley...

    10 players already...So no matter who we pick up, they should not see significant playing time. Two role players; preferably a dead-eye shooter & a quick player who brings energy...Jermaine is the key; if he grows up, the team's possibilities are endless. That's what I expect next year. I'm not worried about anything, but I am anxious to see if Jermaine can do what he is meant to do, which is be the leader of the team. He needs to become the Duncan to our Spurs.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    I hate to say this, but we really don't know if it fits together. We have not seen how Jax, J.O and Artest play together. We really don't know. But I'll say this if they do "fit together". Look out, the rest of the NBA better watch out because that can be as good a threesome as any team in the NBA.

  7. #7
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    You know what I think. No, it doesn't, but it has the potential to. The starters are good, but the backup rotations are messy.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    I think that almost everybody on the team has the attitude of 'I have to go out there and help out for the sake of the team,' which is a really good atitude, but it needs to be 'We need to go in there and win this.'

    Basically we need more team ball, less one on one,Mr.Jackson, though I love him, seems quite partial to the one on one at times.

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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    You know what I think. No, it doesn't, but it has the potential to. The starters are good, but the backup rotations are messy.
    I agree with that, IF Rick goes back to having 5 subs on the floor at the same time.

    If he continues subbing the way he did for the last several games of the season, and continuing on throughout the playoffs, then I think we will be okay. As you recall, it became unusual to ever have a lineup on the floor that did not contain at least two starters.

    If Rick continues this into next season, then I think that maximizes the continuity on both ends of the floor.

    What I do like about this team is that we can put a starting 5 on the floor that may be better defensively than any other team in the league.

    From an offensive perspective, we have the following:

    1. Post - JO and Artest can both play in the paint. At 6-8, Jax will be able to take almost all point guards into the paint.

    2. Double teams. Teams will still double on a healthy JO, and Artest's defender will require help as a balance against Artest's strength. Dale will continue to go to the rim and make teams pay for doubling Artest or O'Neal.

    3. Slashing. Artest and Jax are both capable of driving to the rim.

    4. Penetration. Tinsley, Artest and Jax are all capable penetrators.

    5. Perimeter shooting. Artest was shooting extremely well prior to his suspension. Tinsley was hitting the 3 ball early in the year when healthy. Jax's perimeter shooting percentage should benefit from the extra time he should get as opponent's shift out of double-teaming Artest and JO.

    6. Mid-range shooting. With Reggie gone, and the return of Artest, we may actually be worse in this department. Artest is great around the basket, and he was doing quite well from the perimeter in the first 7 games. But he really needs to expand on his mid-range game.

    With the subs we have, namely Freddie and James, our perimeter shooting and ability to slash, and even our defense, will be okay, even as these members of the 2nd unit begin to take the floor.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Quote Originally Posted by indystarreg
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    I think if you think it doesnt you shouldnt qualify your statement with an out. (but it has potential...)
    Sorry, what? "It has the potential" would be "The bench isn't there right now, but with a few tweaks it could be." I don't think that's a cop-out.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    1. Post - JO and Artest can both play in the paint. At 6-8, Jax will be able to take almost all point guards into the paint.
    Jermaine and Artest can take point guards in the paint as well. Although why they'd be guarded by point guards is beyond me.

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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Jermaine and Artest can take point guards in the paint as well. Although why they'd be guarded by point guards is beyond me.

    You got me. I absolutely must get new microfibre attached from my brain to my fingers. Make that SGs, not PGs. I've been up 'til about 3 each of the last two nights. Maybe I should just shut up and go to bed.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    If this team is healthy were going to win 55-60 games. I know they're some teams who have talent like Chicago and Washington that are going to improve but we are young, we are deep and we have the best tandom in the East.

    However with all that being said I don't know if we match up well with certain teams. Detroit and San Antonio are two teams where we may not be balanced enough to beat however. Again this is just a guess since none of us have any clue how good our projected starting lineup can be since they have never played together. In my opinion as good as we are inside with Artest, Oneal and Jackson ability to score in the post our perimeter game has alot to be desired and against the teams I just mentioned you need a consistant perimeter game to go along with that inside game. Michael Redd, Ray Allen are the type of guys I think we may need to get us over the hump past Detroit.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Starters:

    Tinsley
    Jax
    Davis
    JO
    Ron

    Scarey, very, very scarey. A team with a definite mean streak. Lead by the ring-master, street-ballin' Jamaal Tinsley, many things can happen that one may not expect. With the solid center in Davis to clean up the board, and bring tough in-your-face defense, that position is set. JO and Ron are both All-Stars, and together, the defense is amazing. Jax can spread the defense and knock down the open shot--or he can push the ball down the lane and score or dish.

    The Bench

    JJ
    Freddie
    Foster
    Harrison
    AJ

    Freddie can penetrate and create, as well as shoot effeciently. JJ, when he finally gets comfortable is an amazingly smooth shooter and will strech the defense. Harrison is key--if he can produce off the bench, being a big body in the way, or cleaning up the glass, he will be VITAL. Speaking of cleaning up the glass, Foster has that pretty well under control, assuming he's still with us next year. AJ has improved and is a solid backup, but with the injuries we often suffer, it may be a good idea to find another back up for the back up.

    The question, 'can they play well together?' We know the bench is not where the problems are, so, that's half the team. Artest, JO, and SJax are the ones at the center of speculation, but, who where the three who "rode together" at the Palace? The three who were all suspended because they faught for each other. If Tins can focus, we're set. The three in question, for some reason, seem like they really get along, even though they're all hot heads. And has Dale Davis ever caused a team problems?

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Outside shooting probably will be a recurrent problem next year.

    We can use a backup backup power forward who actually can play in the post.

    James Jones will be hard to re-sign.

    An old, aging reject from Portland and Golden State, two of the worst teams in the NBA last year, is our projected starting center.

    Four of our best players are hotheads who are capable of crazy things.

    Too many of our players are injury prone.

    Our team payroll is out of control.

    I love this team! 60 wins again, but this time we get into the finals! Change nothing!

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    The question is, what does "fit together" mean?

    You have a group of players who are mostly at their best when they match up one-on-one with defenders. SJax, JO, Artest all are very effective in ISO's and waiting for the other team to respond. This does not make for smooth basketball. It's a herky-jerky sort of game but it can be very effective.

    Even Tinsley does his best work penetrating and making the defense react. It's not a team that will use a ton of screens and while ball and player movement will have a role, thet'll be mainly so you can create a mismatch when someone switches.

    Defensively you're still lacking the guy who can defend the post against real physical players. JO's a good shot-blocker, particularly from off-the-ball but he's still not a great position defender (though aeons above where he was 3 years ago).

    This can all work but it won't be the prettiest basketball. The key is still Artest's brain.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23
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    I agree with that, IF Rick goes back to having 5 subs on the floor at the same time.

    If he continues subbing the way he did for the last several games of the season, and continuing on throughout the playoffs, then I think we will be okay. As you recall, it became unusual to ever have a lineup on the floor that did not contain at least two starters.

    If Rick continues this into next season, then I think that maximizes the continuity on both ends of the floor.

    What I do like about this team is that we can put a starting 5 on the floor that may be better defensively than any other team in the league.

    From an offensive perspective, we have the following:

    1. Post - JO and Artest can both play in the paint. At 6-8, Jax will be able to take almost all point guards into the paint.

    2. Double teams. Teams will still double on a healthy JO, and Artest's defender will require help as a balance against Artest's strength. Dale will continue to go to the rim and make teams pay for doubling Artest or O'Neal.

    3. Slashing. Artest and Jax are both capable of driving to the rim.

    4. Penetration. Tinsley, Artest and Jax are all capable penetrators.

    5. Perimeter shooting. Artest was shooting extremely well prior to his suspension. Tinsley was hitting the 3 ball early in the year when healthy. Jax's perimeter shooting percentage should benefit from the extra time he should get as opponent's shift out of double-teaming Artest and JO.

    6. Mid-range shooting. With Reggie gone, and the return of Artest, we may actually be worse in this department. Artest is great around the basket, and he was doing quite well from the perimeter in the first 7 games. But he really needs to expand on his mid-range game.

    With the subs we have, namely Freddie and James, our perimeter shooting and ability to slash, and even our defense, will be okay, even as these members of the 2nd unit begin to take the floor.

    Excellent breakdown. I would like to see Freddie and JJ work on their mid-range game. They showed at times they could hit it. I think this team will be very good. I said coming into the year that this was one of the deepest teams in the league, little did I know they would have to use every bit of it to survive. I think the bench will compliment the starters and I really like the defensive ability of this team from 1 to 12. The bench will be very good defensively as well. I think next year will be a fun year around here. The only thing that concerns me is how JO will react to Artest being back. I think SJax, while being emotional, will fit in just fine. I think he knows what he needs to do.
    "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    I think this team could be very dominant if it learns to play unselfishly, and if we establish an offense that focuses on ball movement. My only concern is that either we aren't a very unselfish team, or that our isolation focused offense relies to much on individual play. Dale is unselfish, but he isn't really looking to score anyway.

    Our only real weakness on offense with this lineup is Dale. If these guys can learn to swing the ball around and get the best look, then they will almost certainly wreak havoc on defenses. My concern with this unit is if they pass into the post to Jermaine, and then the double team comes, and then he forces a shot. We saw alot of that in the playoffs. If that happens too much then Jackson or Ron will become black holes in an effort to get touches on offense, and in some instances, even Tinsley can become to concerned with his own offense.

    We need a calming conductor for this orchestra to play. Tinsley can do this, but at times he gets to caught up with individual battles. He and O'neal are going to have to mature alot, or the Pacers are going to have to bring in a battle tested veteran to help out in this regard. We either need a leader to emerge, or we need to bring one in. I don't know that Reggie ever completely filled this void when he was here, but he certainly did a great job in leading by example most of the time.
    When you're playing against a stacked deck, compete even harder. Show the world how much you'll fight for the winners circle. If you do, someday the cellophane will crackle off a fresh pack, one that belongs to you, and the cards will be stacked in your favor.
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  19. #19
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    So what does "unselfish" mean exactly? Why is that suddenly a catchword for success? The Bulls and Lakers didn't need that pile of hooey to win multiple titles, they crammed thier stars down the throats of their opponents until they heard death rattles. Really, history doesn't really give a **** about who was playing along side Jordan and Pippen or Kobe and Shaq so long as the role players were competent.

    I'm convinced that Ron and JO could have that kind of power, or I'm convinced that they never will, depeding on what day you ask me.

    Here's the difference: On the court at least, the stars on those Lakers and Bulls teams were in tune to one another. They had a wicked combination that I have yet to see from a Pacers team since 2000: trust and consistent execution.

    That's why so many of us are afraid of our future - even after all the stories about how this year brought our guys closer together (and do you include ron in that list?), many fans doubt that our starters will ever truly trust each other the way they should to get the job done.

    I don't want to see "unselfishness," I want to see trust (and a kill-em-all blowout mentality). Will I get it? I'm counting the days to next season when we will all find out.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    I see the key for next year to be two-fold. If Bender can return and play backup PF and if Harrison returns in shape and plays backup center.

    Bender can be the real answer for this team. We will know before the trading deadline and make changes then if neccesary but he need this one chance.

    Harrison can provide the "beef" we need in the middle.

    That will make Pollard and Croshere very expendable.

    James Jones would be a nice addition but not totally neccesary.

    Fred is already here and when healthy is very effective.

    Gill becomes very expenable.

    There has been "much" discussion about Ron, JO, Sjax and JT not being compatible. Do you really think by getting rid of one of them it is going to shape up the others. If it is that big of a problem then get rid of at least 3 of them.

    That means dismantling this team and we don't want to do that again right now.

    Just my opinion.

    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

  21. #21

    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    With Ron and Dale back next year and Reggie off the team, this team will be the best team in the NBA.

    I agree Hulk is gonna have a big part in the rotation, and really could be the unsung hero of 05-06. I can see him getting 20-30 mins if he really steps up his game. He is that type-A rebounder this team needs and we saw flashes of a great postup game last year. I expect his postup game to be even better. The only thing I ever had a problem with David was he made too many dumb rookie mistakes, alot of them. He has alot of work to do in the summer, but he has so much potential for a breakout soph year. With Jeff, Dale and Hulk we are set till Dale retires.

    The Pressure wont be as much on JO to create shot after shot after fadeaway-J, with Ron back it's gonna change the whole offense and leave JO more options other than the post play.

    SJax has another shooter in Ron who can create his own shot or drive to the hoop... probably better than SJ, though I think SJ is still the best shooter on the team. That makes 4-5 starters that can create their own shot at will no matter what the play is, which trust me, is good.

    The only thing is Tinsley, our team wins and loses by his injuries. They really need another back up PG to help AJ for insurance. If they make any moves at all, this is the one glaring obvious (to me) problem with the team.

    So I want to see almost everyone stay, I think JJ will be the financial casualty unfortunately. But I am holding out hope that both he and Dale can get signed.

    The people to move are obvious, but almost impossible to achieve. Bender- please Gods, let that trade with LA happen. Croshere - please somehow let him be traded. John Edwards.. /shrug who cares. Maybe he is the next Primoz waitin to happen, that isn't a good thing though if you play for the Pacers.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles
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    So what does "unselfish" mean exactly? Why is that suddenly a catchword for success? The Bulls and Lakers didn't need that pile of hooey to win multiple titles, they crammed thier stars down the throats of their opponents until they heard death rattles. Really, history doesn't really give a **** about who was playing along side Jordan and Pippen or Kobe and Shaq so long as the role players were competent.

    I'm convinced that Ron and JO could have that kind of power, or I'm convinced that they never will, depeding on what day you ask me.

    Here's the difference: On the court at least, the stars on those Lakers and Bulls teams were in tune to one another. They had a wicked combination that I have yet to see from a Pacers team since 2000: trust and consistent execution.

    That's why so many of us are afraid of our future - even after all the stories about how this year brought our guys closer together (and do you include ron in that list?), many fans doubt that our starters will ever truly trust each other the way they should to get the job done.

    I don't want to see "unselfishness," I want to see trust (and a kill-em-all blowout mentality). Will I get it? I'm counting the days to next season when we will all find out.
    Unselfish means playing for what is best for the team, not what was best for the individual. For all of the examples that you can give of the great teams with star power that have dominated, there is a neverending list of talented teams that never learned to play together. The Trailblazers and Seattle Supersonics both had talent that was the envy of the league, but the guys just couldn't play well together. Even the might Los Angeles Lakers fell to the "unselfish" team play of the Detroit Pistons, and they had Payton, Shaq, Kobe, and Karl Malone. When Kobe got, and still gets, in selfish "me, me" mode, the Lakers are very, very beatable.

    You mentiont trust and killer mentality, and these are also two crucial traits of great teams. I would agree with you that we are lacking here also. But even if these guys learn to trust each other, they aren't going to go very far if they don't learn how to pass the damn ball. Bird could be a black hole himself back in the day, but he was an unbelievable passer. He made McHale, Parish, and many others on the team better by setting them up for easy shots.

    Take a look at the olympics, and you see evidence of unbelievably talented NBA teams getting beaten by less talented cohesive units. There is just a right way and a wrong way to play this game. When we play the right way, for the betterment of the team, versus playing the wrong way, for individual glory, then we are very tough to beat.

    Having players like Jordan and Shaq certainly make up for alot of voids in team chemistry because of their sheer dominance as players. There aren't many players like them, and they come along rarely. It is rarer still to get a guy as talented as Jordan who played as brilliantly and relentlessly on both sides of the ball.

    Ron and Jermaine are probably as talented a duo as there is in the league today. Jermaine is going to have to emerge as a leader, become more mentally tough, and he is going to have bring his overall game to another level. Ron's biggest challenge will be keeping himself in check. If they can both do this, then the sky is the limit.
    When you're playing against a stacked deck, compete even harder. Show the world how much you'll fight for the winners circle. If you do, someday the cellophane will crackle off a fresh pack, one that belongs to you, and the cards will be stacked in your favor.
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  23. #23
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Quote Originally Posted by brich
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    Unselfish means playing for what is best for the team, not what was best for the individual. For all of the examples that you can give of the great teams with star power that have dominated, there is a neverending list of talented teams that never learned to play together. The Trailblazers and Seattle Supersonics both had talent that was the envy of the league, but the guys just couldn't play well together. Even the might Los Angeles Lakers fell to the "unselfish" team play of the Detroit Pistons, and they had Payton, Shaq, Kobe, and Karl Malone. When Kobe got, and still gets, in selfish "me, me" mode, the Lakers are very, very beatable.

    You mentiont trust and killer mentality, and these are also two crucial traits of great teams. I would agree with you that we are lacking here also. But even if these guys learn to trust each other, they aren't going to go very far if they don't learn how to pass the damn ball. Bird could be a black hole himself back in the day, but he was an unbelievable passer. He made McHale, Parish, and many others on the team better by setting them up for easy shots.

    Take a look at the olympics, and you see evidence of unbelievably talented NBA teams getting beaten by less talented cohesive units. There is just a right way and a wrong way to play this game. When we play the right way, for the betterment of the team, versus playing the wrong way, for individual glory, then we are very tough to beat.

    Having players like Jordan and Shaq certainly make up for alot of voids in team chemistry because of their sheer dominance as players. There aren't many players like them, and they come along rarely. It is rarer still to get a guy as talented as Jordan who played as brilliantly and relentlessly on both sides of the ball.

    Ron and Jermaine are probably as talented a duo as there is in the league today. Jermaine is going to have to emerge as a leader, become more mentally tough, and he is going to have bring his overall game to another level. Ron's biggest challenge will be keeping himself in check. If they can both do this, then the sky is the limit.
    I see your points every step of the way.

    I think what I was getting at was the issue of "flow". If you don't have an open shot, if you are unselfish, you pass to another guy. If he doesn't make something happen this time, you might hesitate before you pass to him again. That's where trust comes in. Trust is something developed and earned by success (i.e. the guy makes something happen), not blindly given.

    Ultimately, there is a down-side to unselfishness. Reggie's legacy has many facets, but part of it is his "unselfish" deferment during the last couple of years. He still had it and in a display of misguided unselfishness, passed up opportunities to score. Passing up easy buckets doesn't win any more games than forcing shots in low percentage situations.

    Trust. Balance. Hunger. This is what we need. They are all intangible, and honestly I have no idea how to achieve any of them beyond wanting, practicing, and ultimately praying.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles
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    I see your points every step of the way.

    I think what I was getting at was the issue of "flow". If you don't have an open shot, if you are unselfish, you pass to another guy. If he doesn't make something happen this time, you might hesitate before you pass to him again. That's where trust comes in. Trust is something developed and earned by success (i.e. the guy makes something happen), not blindly given.

    Ultimately, there is a down-side to unselfishness. Reggie's legacy has many facets, but part of it is his "unselfish" deferment during the last couple of years. He still had it and in a display of misguided unselfishness, passed up opportunities to score. Passing up easy buckets doesn't win any more games than forcing shots in low percentage situations.

    Trust. Balance. Hunger. This is what we need. They are all intangible, and honestly I have no idea how to achieve any of them beyond wanting, practicing, and ultimately praying.
    All good points, especially your point about Reggie. There is definitely a point where a guy is being too unselfish. The Pacers would likely have done better as a team if Reggie had looked for his shot more the last few years. He didn't have to launch them like the Reggie of old, but IMO, he definitely deferred too much during his last few years.

    Working for the best shot only works if the guy who has it takes it, and ultimately, makes it.
    When you're playing against a stacked deck, compete even harder. Show the world how much you'll fight for the winners circle. If you do, someday the cellophane will crackle off a fresh pack, one that belongs to you, and the cards will be stacked in your favor.
    -Pat Riley

  25. #25
    Harmonica
    Guest

    Default Re: Ok, discuss amongst yourselves....

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Trust. Balance. Hunger. This is what we need. They are all intangible, and honestly I have no idea how to achieve any of them beyond wanting, practicing, and ultimately praying.
    From The Hustler:

    Bert Gordon: You got talent.
    Fast Eddie: I got talent? So what beat me?
    Bert Gordon: Character.


    That's what this team needs most. Character.

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