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Thread: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Recently retired National Basketball Association legend Reggie Miller, who played for the Indiana Pacers during his entire 18-year career, will serve as the honorary starter for the 89th Indianapolis 500 on Sunday, May 29. Miller will wave the green flag to start the “Greatest Spectacle in Racing”
    http://www.indy500.com/

    The race is scheduled to start NOON Indy time.

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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Man that would have been so cool 10 years ago. Too bad it had to come for an IRL 500 rather than an Indy 500.

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    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    Too bad it had to come for an IRL 500 rather than an Indy 500.
    Are they running the race in Ireland this year? I thought they still had it here......
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Ten years ago Reggie wasn't quite Reggie yet.

    For all of you who are thinking you'd rather see Reggie play on Sunday think again. We'd be playing at home. We never win at home on race day.

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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat
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    Are they running the race in Ireland this year? I thought they still had it here......
    No they still have it somewhere in Indiana I am pretty sure. The I does not stand for Ireland it stands for Irrelevant.

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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    I think Ragnar hears Old Tony spinning in his grave.
    King Tony has certainly made a sow's ear out of silk purse hasn't he? But shucks, that's another forum.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    But at some point wouldn't the best thing to do be to support the Indy 500? ...Altho it is far from dead there's no doubt it is in decline.

    The media picks up the negative vibe and runs with it and creates the malaise that is now affecting all OW. IOW, who is really driving the scorched earth policy?

    There's a race Sunday, Reggie's waving the green flag, and I'm going to be there enjoying myself along with a few hundred thousand other people. It is still the biggest annual sporting event in the world and it is in our backyard.

    -Bball
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    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Cool, i love Indy500... Tony stewart rulez!

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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    But at some point wouldn't the best thing to do be to support the Indy 500? ...Altho it is far from dead there's no doubt it is in decline.

    The media picks up the negative vibe and runs with it and creates the malaise that is now affecting all OW. IOW, who is really driving the scorched earth policy?

    There's a race Sunday, Reggie's waving the green flag, and I'm going to be there enjoying myself along with a few hundred thousand other people. It is still the biggest annual sporting event in the world and it is in our backyard.

    -Bball
    No Bball it would actually be the wrong thing. If I support the IRL 500 it continues to prop up the dumbed down sham that is the IRL. It is only through the continued decline of the 500 that any reunification can occur.

    For open wheel to survive in the US there needs to be one series on that we agree. What I think you are missing is that people like myself would not watch that one series if it were the dumbed down version that the IRL is peddling.

    I dont have anything against ovals. And frankly if The great Inheritor would just allow Ford to run in the 500 with an engine that adheres to the IRL rules I would watch the 500 (assuming all the champ car teams showed up)

    But as it is he will not allow you to run in the 500 unless you supply engines to teams who run in the rest of the series. That is totally against everything that made the 500 great to begin with. There can be no innovation, You will never see a company spend millions of dollars in research just to run at Indy with a one off untill the IRL folds.

    The IRL will fold soon Toyota is out of there the IRL not getting Long Beach was the last straw for them. Once Toyota is gone Honda will leave as well. Then what? Grand Am engines?

    I have a feeling I will be attending the 07 500 if not the 06. But until the end of the rules designed to keep the champ car teams out I will not attend. Not only will I not attend I will not watch. I will not go to the F1 race at the track even though I love F1.

    The 500 should be a no holds barred run what you bring race. Thats what it used to be and thats what made it great. It has not been that in 10 years now and thats why it is declining. If he said the only rule is that there is no rule then the 500 would return to prominence. If you can get in with a Nextel Cup car then bring it. if you want to run an F1 car bring that. Now thats a race I would attend.

  10. #10
    BustedPants
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    No Bball it would actually be the wrong thing. If I support the IRL 500 it continues to prop up the dumbed down sham that is the IRL. It is only through the continued decline of the 500 that any reunification can occur.
    If you aren't watching IRL events and if you haven't attended or watched an Indy 500 in years, then your argument can only be based on articles you read. I do not think this is much of a basis for an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    For open wheel to survive in the US there needs to be one series on that we agree. What I think you are missing is that people like myself would not watch that one series if it were the dumbed down version that the IRL is peddling.
    One series that who agrees on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    I dont have anything against ovals. And frankly if The great Inheritor would just allow Ford to run in the 500 with an engine that adheres to the IRL rules I would watch the 500 (assuming all the champ car teams showed up)

    But as it is he will not allow you to run in the 500 unless you supply engines to teams who run in the rest of the series. That is totally against everything that made the 500 great to begin with. There can be no innovation, You will never see a company spend millions of dollars in research just to run at Indy with a one off untill the IRL folds.
    I think you are forgetting the state CART was in back in the mid-90s. It wasn't a "bring what you got" league like you want. It wasn't a "bring whatever engine and car you got" either. There are many issues with the engine requirements for the IRL, but you are pretending as if CART knew exactly what they were doing, too. The IRL was needed. No one expected it to last more than year, and it sounds completely naive when you state that it will be finished in no time, too. The league is not strong. The league needs a lot of work, but the league has done more than most people ever thought that it would. A Pacers fan shouldn't stop following the team after a couple bad trades, and a fan of IndyCars and the Indy Racing League shouldn't not watch the race when their idea of change isn't plausible.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    I was listening to ESPN radio 950 today and during their local radio update, they said "former" Pacer Reggie Miller will........It seemed really wierd to hear former

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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    It's sad that people don't support the race; I haven't the slightest as to why not. I'm willing to bet that if all the critics of the race experienced it once, that a good lot of them would alter their opinions. That said, I really don't care what happens to the league as long as there's the 500. As long as the race is on, I'm happy. And I don't care if it's in decline; I don't care if I'm the only guy in the stands watching (Heck, I could get some sweet seats near the finish line! )...I love the race for what it is, an American & Hoosier Classic.

    Turn one, here I come!

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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    If you aren't watching IRL events and if you haven't attended or watched an Indy 500 in years, then your argument can only be based on articles you read. I do not think this is much of a basis for an argument.
    Well since most of the press in Indiana is on the side of the IRL no you would not get anything from that. I have however looked at the specs and can see with my own eyes that it is dumbed down. Since I am an open wheel fan I recognize the cars as the feeder series cars that they are. Those Dalaras are used in F3000 and in some of the other lower leagues.

    Back before Speed turned into the NASCAR channel you could see those cars running arround the streets of Malasia.

    As far as the engines go I have nothing against normaly aspirated V8's if they are turning at 20,000 RPM but these are not even close to that.

    A magazine did a test between a champ car and an IRL "car" and there was no competition the crapwaggon was slower in every category.


    One series that who agrees on?
    I would think you would look at the fan base of OW in America for that decision. Clearly no one watches or goes to IRL races. Motegi did not even have a rating and everyone in attendance was a Honda employee there on a free ticket. Phoenix had 6,000 people and I would bet less than 1,000 of them paid for a ticket.

    The average Champ car race has over a hundred thousand fans. Now yes the Indy 500 will have arround 200,000 people but thats a far cry from 1995 when there were over 400,000.

    The speedway tore down over 100,000 seats so they they would not look so deserted and it still wont sell out. I think the fans have clearly spoken and the IRL is not what they want.


    I think you are forgetting the state CART was in back in the mid-90s. It wasn't a "bring what you got" league like you want. It wasn't a "bring whatever engine and car you got" either. There are many issues with the engine requirements for the IRL, but you are pretending as if CART knew exactly what they were doing, too. The IRL was needed. No one expected it to last more than year, and it sounds completely naive when you state that it will be finished in no time, too. The league is not strong. The league needs a lot of work, but the league has done more than most people ever thought that it would. A Pacers fan shouldn't stop following the team after a couple bad trades, and a fan of IndyCars and the Indy Racing League shouldn't not watch the race when their idea of change isn't plausible.
    I know it was not. What I am saying is that the Indy 500 should be that. Remember the Penske cars in 1994? They blew the field away with a motor that was illegal in CART but legal at the 500. Thats what made the 500 special.

    CART did not have all the answers and there were a lot of problems. History is showing that the IRL was not the way to fix it though since they have all the problems that CART had and none of the good. The Inheritors reasons for starting the IRL was "engine leases" "all ovals" Foreign drivers" "Low Costs" "Giving the little guy a chance to win" How many of those things survived? Right now the IRL teams lease their engines have foreign drivers, are running some road coarses this year and AJ Foyt still cant feild a team.

    I do believe the IRL will fold soon. If not fold then they will adopt the champ car spec. I would be willing to bet that they will be announcing a 2.4l Turbo soon. If the two series adopted a single engine and chassis spec and shared three or four events a year they would both be stronger. Right now the only think Tony has is the 500 (or 497.5 if you watched in 2000 when Paul Tracy clearly won but they awarded it to an IRL driver)

    If I were going to stop following the Pacers after a couple bad trades I would have been out of here many many years ago but your analogy does not hold up. If the Pacers become a WNBA team and claim they are still an NBA team people wont keep watching thats what Tony did.

    And as far as being a fan of Indy cars and the IRL I have never been a fan of the IRL I am a fan of "Indy" cars its just that Indy cars have not run at Indy in a long time. F3000 cars have been there for a while now.

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    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    I've been to every 500 since 1998

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ptmiller
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    Cool, i love Indy500... Tony stewart rulez!

    Tony isn't racing...

    Shouldn't you be for Kenny Brack?

    -Bball
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Since this is the Pacer forum, I was going to stay out of this, but now I figure, "what the heck".

    The problem with CART as it was at split time was that the money was the determining factor, not the driver or the crew. The day of the old independent driver was gone, and I think at Indy (if nowhere else) that was felt to be a Bad Thing.

    I think the way IRL formed was ridiculous, but I also think that CART ... er ... CCWS has shown that their claim to be able to succeed without Indy was also bogus.

    There needs to be some compromise between a level playing field and innovation in the sport.

    There has been talk about a reconciliation, particularly in the face of continuing gains by NASCAR vs. open-wheel racing. If IRL and CCWS don't get their poo to mesh, the whole thing is going to become a pay-per-view package on some obscure cable system.

    Open-wheel racing needs to solve the dilemma of money vs. skill and then come up with some North American drivers that can capture the country's imaginations like AJ and Big Al and Rick once did.

    If Danica Patrick can get going (and, as far as I can tell, she is most definitely the real deal as a driver), then the second part of that formula could be solved.
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  17. #17
    BustedPants
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    I would think you would look at the fan base of OW in America for that decision. Clearly no one watches or goes to IRL races. Motegi did not even have a rating and everyone in attendance was a Honda employee there on a free ticket. Phoenix had 6,000 people and I would bet less than 1,000 of them paid for a ticket.

    The average Champ car race has over a hundred thousand fans. Now yes the Indy 500 will have arround 200,000 people but thats a far cry from 1995 when there were over 400,000.

    The speedway tore down over 100,000 seats so they they would not look so deserted and it still wont sell out. I think the fans have clearly spoken and the IRL is not what they want.




    I know it was not. What I am saying is that the Indy 500 should be that. Remember the Penske cars in 1994? They blew the field away with a motor that was illegal in CART but legal at the 500. Thats what made the 500 special.

    CART did not have all the answers and there were a lot of problems. History is showing that the IRL was not the way to fix it though since they have all the problems that CART had and none of the good. The Inheritors reasons for starting the IRL was "engine leases" "all ovals" Foreign drivers" "Low Costs" "Giving the little guy a chance to win" How many of those things survived? Right now the IRL teams lease their engines have foreign drivers, are running some road coarses this year and AJ Foyt still cant feild a team.
    Let me start off by stating that my analogy was very poor. I thought I had deleted it from my post... it definitely doesn't hold up.

    Inheritor or not, this is Tony George's track. Judging his success by the outcome is illogical (outcome bias). A change was needed, and he knew when he made the change that he would lose money through the next decade. When he started the series, it was not made to be an all oval series, nor was it made only for American drivers. He hoped that this would be two of the benefits (majority oval and more opportunities for Americans), but this was never absolutely stated in any sort of mission statement.

    He has lost over $200 MM of his own money, so to say he shouldn't make some financially-based decisions is a little ridiculous. NASCAR was on the rise at the time, but no one could have predicted its success. Stock cars and IndyCars may be different, but race fans are race fans, and many of those fans wearing Gordon shirts once were wearing Little Al shirts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    I do believe the IRL will fold soon. If not fold then they will adopt the champ car spec. I would be willing to bet that they will be announcing a 2.4l Turbo soon. If the two series adopted a single engine and chassis spec and shared three or four events a year they would both be stronger. Right now the only think Tony has is the 500 (or 497.5 if you watched in 2000 when Paul Tracy clearly won but they awarded it to an IRL driver)
    I believe you meant the 2002 Indy 500 with the Helio/Tracy deal. ABC showed footage of Tracy's car being behind Helio's when the yellow light flashed inside the cockpit. It was not in sync with some of the track's light, but the fact is, the yellow flag was out before Tracy passed Helio, and IndyCars do not race to the line like NASCAR does.

    One last note: don't discount some of George's recent moves. People knock him for starting Vision, but he has promoted a new IMS President who has taken over most of George's day-to-day roles.

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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Quote Originally Posted by BustedPants
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    Let me start off by stating that my analogy was very poor. I thought I had deleted it from my post... it definitely doesn't hold up.

    Inheritor or not, this is Tony George's track. Judging his success by the outcome is illogical (outcome bias). A change was needed, and he knew when he made the change that he would lose money through the next decade. When he started the series, it was not made to be an all oval series, nor was it made only for American drivers. He hoped that this would be two of the benefits (majority oval and more opportunities for Americans), but this was never absolutely stated in any sort of mission statement.
    Waaaa? Judging success by outcome is illogical? I need to wrap my head in tape before it explodes. Not only is it logical but the ONLY way to judge success RESULTS matter not intentions.

    Yes it was absolutely stated in a mission statement. He called it his vision thats why so many people are laughing and crying when he called his new team vision racing.

    He has lost over $200 MM of his own money, so to say he shouldn't make some financially-based decisions is a little ridiculous. NASCAR was on the rise at the time, but no one could have predicted its success. Stock cars and IndyCars may be different, but race fans are race fans, and many of those fans wearing Gordon shirts once were wearing Little Al shirts.
    I have to disagree a little here, I cant stand NASCAR. Let me re phrase that. I have nothing against NASCAR I just cant stand to watch it. Dumbed down racing is just boring to me. They wreck way way too often and the results are more random than skill since the cars are designed to draft each other and cause random passing rather than engineered success.

    I have found that race fans are not race fans all over. For example ovals are boring as hell to me. Only Indy was ever worth watching because so many cars would be there that it was an event. Fans of F1 (like myself) are usually bored to death by NASCAR and NASCAR fans dont like the F1.


    I believe you meant the 2002 Indy 500 with the Helio/Tracy deal. ABC showed footage of Tracy's car being behind Helio's when the yellow light flashed inside the cockpit. It was not in sync with some of the track's light, but the fact is, the yellow flag was out before Tracy passed Helio, and IndyCars do not race to the line like NASCAR does.
    We must have seen different footage because the one that I saw clearly showed him in front of Helio (by in front of I am talking the front wheel was a little ahead of the others front wheel) I am well aware that they dont race to the line and had no idea NASCAR did.

    One last note: don't discount some of George's recent moves. People knock him for starting Vision, but he has promoted a new IMS President who has taken over most of George's day-to-day roles.
    He has made a couple of good moves. Its just that most of them were against his "Vision" He poached the big champ car teams (you know the ones who were the problem in CART) He is now going road racing against the "vision" and he has been trying to give Danica "the call" ever since Katherine Legge won a Toyota Atlantic race. She had the special engine in Motegi but crashed. She has it at Indy too we will see if she can hold on.

  19. #19
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Tony isn't racing...

    Shouldn't you be for Kenny Brack?

    -Bball
    Go Buddy Rice !
    or no... Danica Patrick!

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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    3ptmiller I am amazed. I can understand if people in Indiana still think it is a big deal just because it was such a huge part of our lives for so long. But you are aware of F1 and probably F3000 and should be aware that they are running feeder series cars at Indy now.

  21. #21
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    3ptmiller I am amazed. I can understand if people in Indiana still think it is a big deal just because it was such a huge part of our lives for so long. But you are aware of F1 and probably F3000 and should be aware that they are running feeder series cars at Indy now.
    Cool! 450 hp on those little *******s brings chills to my body! To bad i cant watch it tho

  22. #22
    BustedPants
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    Waaaa? Judging success by outcome is illogical? I need to wrap my head in tape before it explodes. Not only is it logical but the ONLY way to judge success RESULTS matter not intentions.
    It is illogical. Feel free to look up "outcome bias" in any text on logic.

    Yes it was absolutely stated in a mission statement. He called it his vision thats why so many people are laughing and crying when he called his new team vision racing. Here's a quick quote from http://qhc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l_2/ii46#SEC4:

    "While knowledge of an outcome is part of the set of operations used to demonstrate hindsight bias, it is important to make a clear distinction between hindsight bias and outcome bias. Hindsight bias is the tendency for people with outcome knowledge to exaggerate the extent to which they would have predicted the event beforehand, while outcome bias refers to the influence of outcome knowledge upon evaluations of decision quality."

    Even though I do agree that results must be taken into consideration, that does not take away from that evaluation's illogic. Even though I do agree that there are many differences with oval vs. road course fans or IndyCar vs. stock cars, there are still more similarities between NASCAR fans and IndyCar fans than any other fans. IndyCar's feeder divisions are now sending more drivers to NASCAR than IRL (mainly USAC). Fans of those drivers are typicall open wheel fans, but have found themselves following NASCAR because they enjoy watching open wheel guys like Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Ryan Newman, Carl Edwards, etc.

    A basketball example would be the American Basketball Association. The league's attendance were always very low, the profitability of any team was minimal, etc--- yet, the basketball was very enjoyable to watch and it forever changed the sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    He has made a couple of good moves. Its just that most of them were against his "Vision" He poached the big champ car teams (you know the ones who were the problem in CART) He is now going road racing against the "vision" and he has been trying to give Danica "the call" ever since Katherine Legge won a Toyota Atlantic race. She had the special engine in Motegi but crashed. She has it at Indy too we will see if she can hold on.
    Once again, the wording of the mission back in the mid-90s of the IRL is still the same today. They want(ed) to have a league that promotes oval wheel racing and increases the opportunities for American drivers. The league will always be a majority open wheel circuit and The Infiniti Pro Series is one attempt at offering another bridge for American drivers.

    However, if the Indy Racing League wanted to make a few changes to your version of the mission statement, then I do not disagree with them. If they would believe that the changes were necessary, then they most likely are. They gave nearly ten years to a league that critics only gave a couple years. The league has a lot of growing still to do, and that's why every year the IRL makes evaluations and necessary changes. And to say the league is unsuccessful is a lie. It has TV contracts locked in, great drivers, and fun races. The attendances might be low, but that is not the only revenue stream. It could be pointed that the Indianapolis 500 is the main reason the league has stayed afloat, and that is fine. It's basic business. Use the value of one brand to to advance your product line.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Not that anyone will care about my opinion, but here it is anyway.

    As far as I'm concerned if I could only watch one series it would be the IRL (and that has nothing to do with the Indianapolis 500). I really loved it back before the CART started crossing back over.

    I watch NASCAR, but only because of Tony Stewart (John Andretti and Larry Foyt too if they still had rides).

    In my narrow minded opinion the only reason to watch a CART race is for the over under a)on what Paul Tracy will crash and b) on when Jimmy Vassar will crash or his car will break.

    F-1: I used to pay attention back in the dark ages when Mario would race. I usually watch the race at the Speedway, but then when it's done I wonder why I even bothered.

    We used to go to the 500 all the time when my dad was working and could get freebie tickets. I didn't realize how much I missed it until Kegboy, mom, and I went to the first IROC race there a few years ago.

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    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    Does he do the "start your engines" announcement too?

    He would be hated forever if he just said, "Gentlemen, start your engines."
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

    ----------------- Reggie Miller

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    20,099

    Default Re: Reggie to wave green flag Sunday to start Indy500

    I'd like to talk about this more since everyone here seems to be reasonable and civil.
    I've created this thread in the Sports Pub for anyone who'd like to read my take and discuss the Indy 500, IRL, CCWS, and CART.
    http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/s...468#post197468

    Regardless of where you stand on the 'split', Reggie Miller getting to wave the green flag to start the race is a real honor. We can talk about the other stuff in the Sports Pub.

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/s...468#post197468

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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