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Thread: Where do you stand?

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    Default Where do you stand?

    Most Pacers fans right now follow into 1 of 2 categories.

    1) You believe that the Pacers are a top 3 or 4 team in the NBA, their only major problem is those damn Detroit Pistons. You aren't for any major moves, because you think it's will be difficult to get a stronger core than this.

    2) You believe this team has major issues. You believe that this team lacks maturity, leadership, mental toughness, durability, etc. You would welcome some big changes to the roster this offseason.

    Before we dive into any of this, it's pretty obvious that Pacers fans on either side of this can make a strong case for either issue.

    Let's talk about number 1 first. Many posters on here believe that we do indeed have a top 3 or 4 team in the NBA. They believe that the only problem with this team is the fact that the Pistons are just a deeper, more experienced and just....well an obviously better team(something either side could agree on). You believe that there is really no major practical move that could make the Pacers that much of a better team. You believe that Jermaine, Ron, and Jax is a core that we should stick with for a long time.

    You can't wait to get Ron Artest back. You think he is the key to making the Pacers a top 3 or 4 team. You think that he just made a bad mistake, and will be fine next year, back to an "allstar"

    Every Pacer fan knows this team has great "potential", but if you support "1", you believe that this team can live up to high expectations. You see Detroit as being the only roadblock in the Pacers season, and are confident that if a healthy, complete Pacers team plays Detroit next year, they can take them.

    Watching Detroit handle Miami last night backs you up alot. You believe that the Pacers would eliminate everyone in the East, with the obvious exception of Detroit for the time being. You believe that even the beat up Pacers team we had this season could have possibly taken out Miami(I don't).

    Now, let's do a complete 180.............

    If you support number 2, you think that there are alot of unanswered questions about this team. You don't think Ron Artest is the answer here. You don't think this team is mature enough, and have doubts to whether it ever will be. You don't believe that a core of JO-Jax-and Artest can lead this team deep into the playoffs. By deep, I mean NBA finals.

    You want to see big moves if you support this. You're tired of waiting with this current roster. You're tired of hearing injury excuses such as "if we would have just had a healthy Jermaine and Tinsley, don't worry, we'll beat them next year."

    You're sick of the support of Ron Artest. You belive that he just doesn't get it, and will never have his head screwed on straight. You believe that Ron IS the major problem. You believe that him going up into the stands followed a pattern of behavior that we have seen for a couple years now. You can't trust him.

    You question whether Jermaine is a Duncan-like leader. You want him to take control of the team next year, but have doubts to whether he can do it.



    I tend to fall into number 2. I have some serious doubts about this team. Maybe you don't feel as "apples and oranges" as this post lays out, but I think it's pretty hard to fall in-between. Most people by now have a definite opinion of this squad.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    to stand completely pat after a season in which you didnt win the championship is silly.

    Even when the Pistons were growing with their talented core, they weren't above making major changes (Dantley/Aguirre, James Edwards/1st rounder)

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    to stand completely pat after a season in which you didnt win the championship is silly.

    Even when the Pistons were growing with their talented core, they weren't above making major changes (Dantley/Aguirre, James Edwards/1st rounder)
    We wouldn't be "standing pat," though. We add Ron back. He's the key, IMO. The Pacers have already shown that they're better than the Pistons when Ron is on the floor, and our players are relatively healthy.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    to stand completely pat after a season in which you didnt win the championship is silly.

    Even when the Pistons were growing with their talented core, they weren't above making major changes (Dantley/Aguirre, James Edwards/1st rounder)

    by standing pat, I mean, keeping the core of JO-Ron-Jax.

    I should have been more specific.

    Obviously every team is going to make SOME type of change.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade
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    We wouldn't be "standing pat," though. We add Ron back. He's the key, IMO. The Pacers have already shown that they're better than the Pistons when Ron is on the floor, and our players are relatively healthy.
    Yes, I'm sure a guy with three MVPs and 3 rings puts a lot of stock into those crucial november regular season games....

    You're more then welcome to that opinion, I just don't think Donnie's mouthpiece buys that.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Well, the core of the team's pretty good and it really would have been nice to have seen what they could do whole this year.

    That said, IMO you need to make SOME moves. The frontcourt needs an upgrade at C - or backup PF. You need more beef - and for those who quote Pollard I mean beef that can walk. You need a 2nd frontcourt player who can score - from somewhere. Maybe Harrison is it but that's hard to say right now.

    Here's the bigger problem:

    Last year there was a true final four going into the playoffs - LA and the Spurs in the West, Indy and Detroit in the East.

    IMO there would have still been 4 this season if the Pacers had been whole - 3 in the EC and the Spurs (I just don't see the Suns' style working)

    Next year you could have these teams as contenders:

    EC - Detroit, Miami, Indy, Chicago, NJ, Washington
    WC - Spurs, Suns, Rockets, Nuggets

    The league's gonna be tougher - we're getting back to the 90's folks when 6-8 teams going into the playoffs had legit shots at getting through (except for the friggin' Jordan fella).

    So I don't think you can stand pat but I also think the Tinsley, Jackson, O'Neal core is pretty solid to build around. If you think Ron Artest can stay sane, add him as a 4th. But you can always get better.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    the pacers have a pretty solid core group, yeah.

    I'm just from the school that says you should never be satisfied with your current roster, unless you're on top of the mountain looking down at everyone else.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    the pacers have a pretty solid core group, yeah.

    I'm just from the school that says you should never be satisfied with your current roster, unless you're on top of the mountain looking down at everyone else.
    Preach away oh mighty one.

    Where's that Kstat meter when you need it? With that statement you'd be off the charts in arrogance......

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Preach away oh mighty one.

    Where's that Kstat meter when you need it? With that statement you'd be off the charts in arrogance......
    Yep, thats me, seeing as how we're coming off our 15th straight title, I've ALWAYS wanted my team to stand pat- oh wait....nevermind.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    no offense, but I agree with that philosophy.

    Especailly in basketball, one missing piece can make a hell of a difference. The only way I would never tweak my roster (if I were a GM) is if I had just won the NBA title, and even then..................
    GMs are always trying to make deals to make their teams better, even if they did just win a ring. Every team in the NBA is looking to make that big break, and if the defending champs just stay put then they're idiots. People gun for you, so you take an offensive game plan. Get the best player you possibly can, so you don't see him on another team and he puts them over the top and over you.

    I disagree with the idea, and I think that it's a joke to have him say it because I believe he thinks he is on a mountain looking down at the rest of us.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Yep, thats me, seeing as how we're coming off our 15th straight title, I've ALWAYS wanted my team to stand pat- oh wait....nevermind.
    When you start handing out quotes like "Another game, another win" that gives the vision that you think you're team is so superior to everyone elses. So to me, you're saying that they are on the mountain and therefore don't currently need to make the changes.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    I disagree with the idea, and I think that it's a joke to have him say it because I believe he thinks he is on a mountain looking down at the rest of us.
    Good to know that you believe you know what I think. I'll keep your psychic abilities in mind next time I post.

    ........so you're basically saying that if VA had said the same thing, word-for-word, you wouldn't have a problem with it.......

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    Ok, no Im really confused

    You agree that a team is always gettin better, but you are mad at Kstat for mentioning that he was at the top of the mountain looking down.............................

    I'm saying that he's telling us that the Pacers need to make changes because they didn't win, while the Pistons have the luxury at looking down upon the rest. It just screams arrogance to me.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    When you start handing out quotes like "Another game, another win" that gives the vision that you think you're team is so superior to everyone elses. So to me, you're saying that they are on the mountain and therefore don't currently need to make the changes.
    .....and if we win another title with the same core group, guess what- I'll STILL want to make no changes. If you can bring back the SAME core group that just won you a championship, why wouldn't you?

    If we lose at some point, then I'll find out why we lost and see if I can't do some tweaking.

    The burden is on everyone else to catch the champ. It is NOT the job of the champ to break up a proven winner and give everyone else a chance to catch up to them

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Good to know that you believe you know what I think. I'll keep your psychic abilities in mind next time I post.

    ........so you're basically saying that if VA had said the same thing, word-for-word, you wouldn't have a problem with it.......
    If I was claiming to be psychic I would of said I KNOW that you believe that. By saying that I THINK you believe that means that from what I get from your statements I've come up with my opinion. Last time I checked opinion's weren't wrong, or factual.......

    No, I wouldn't have a problem with it because he doesn't have a track record of being smug about winning. Next time he throws out a "oh well. another game, another win" then it'll be a little more problematic for me.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    .....and if we win another title with the same core group, guess what- I'll STILL want to make no changes. If you can bring back the SAME core group that just won you a championship, why wouldn't you?

    If we lose at some point, then I'll find out why we lost and see if I can't do some tweaking.

    The burden is on everyone else to catch the champ. It is NOT the job of the champ to break up a proven winner and give everyone else a chance to catch up to them
    That's not what you said though. You said "I'm just from the school that says you should never be satisfied with your current roster, unless you're on top of the mountain looking down at everyone else." From what I get from your recent posts I've come to the opinion that you think you are on that mounatin, therefore not needing any changes.

    Maybe you don't think you are on top, but you sure don't portray that.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    No, I wouldn't have a problem with it because he doesn't have a track record of being smug about winning.
    I rest my case. Your problem isn't with anythign I said, its with me. Congratulations.

    Next time he throws out a "oh well. another game, another win" then it'll be a little more problematic for me.
    Sorry, its not my job to be impressed with every team that wants to knock us of. If Miami wants to earn my respect, they should make me fear them. I dont OWE them anything, they haven't proven crap. Until then, they're just another team we need to play in order to reach the finals.

    Maybe you don't think you are on top, but you sure don't portray that.
    um, newsflash: we ARE on top. We've been on top for the last 12 months. We've got the trophy, and someone has to take it from us. Call it arrogance, I call it the truth.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    Ok, I see now

    Well, its all a matter of perception. I saw it as him stating the Pistons are the NBA champs, and can look down at the rest of the league (including us since this is a Pacers forum) because of that fact.

    But maybe I just read it differently then you did...................
    I guess it's just the competitive drive in me, and the addition of a crappy past two days. I believe that no one is on top when the next season rolls around. Just because you won last year, doesn't mean squat. Anyone to sit there and say they're the best so they don't need to make changes just rubs me the wrong way. I can't stand it when people look down at others, sports wise, or attitude wise.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    When you start handing out quotes like "Another game, another win" that gives the vision that you think you're team is so superior to everyone elses. So to me, you're saying that they are on the mountain and therefore don't currently need to make the changes.

    rest easy my friend....wont be long till hes not on top the mountain anymore...hell be back in the trenches with the rest of us trying to win a title next year instead of defending one....only difference between us and detroit this year is they get a shorter offseason...

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    I believe that no one is on top when the next season rolls around. Just because you won last year, doesn't mean squat.
    Championship experience is the most improtant thing toa basketball team. More important than ANYTHING else. There's a difference between believing you can beat anybody, and KNOWING you can beat anybody. Eventually, you'll figure that out. If you want a prime example, check game 6.

    . Anyone to sit there and say they're the best so they don't need to make changes just rubs me the wrong way.
    Again, why should the defending champ want to make changes? Do you know how hard it is to build that kind of team? What would be the purpose of breaking it up?

    I can't stand it when people look down at others, sports wise, or attitude wise.
    You better hope the Pacers never win a championship then, because you don't get there (and stay there) WITHOUT being arrogant.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    I rest my case. Your problem isn't with anythign I said, its with me. Congratulations.
    Personally, I have no problem with you, just a problem with some of your quotes after Detroit wins. I think they're winning goes to your head. Obviously others do too, hence the meter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Sorry, its not my job to be impressed with every team that wants to knock us of. If Miami wants to earn my respect, they should make me fear them. I dont OWE them anything, they haven't proven crap. Until then, they're just another team we need to play in order to reach the finals.
    There inlies the problem. They do deserve respect. They deserve respect for their very position. You may not have to give them respect each and every individual, but to think that the Miami Heat as a team isn't worthy of your respect is just hubris at it's fullest. Good thing for you that your team doesn't think like you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    um, newsflash: we ARE on top. We've been on top for the last 12 months. We've got the trophy, and someone has to take it from us. Call it arrogance, I call it the truth.
    Take your trophy? You'll always have the 2004 championship trophy. No one will EVER take it from you. This is 2005. Your name isn't on that tropy, nor is anyone elses. Your team is 25% of the field, not 100%. The Pistons are just as high up that mountain this year than the Spurs, and only a hair higher than Miami and the Suns.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    You better hope the Pacers never win a championship then, because you don't get there (and stay there) WITHOUT being arrogant.
    though the fans in detroit did definitely affect the outcome of this season...im not sure how the arrogance of fans helps the team stay at the top....especially when the arrogance of the fans far exceeds that of the team...

    if ben wallace was exhorting his team to just shut up and play...i wonder what he would tell fans that tend to run their mouth a bit too much as well....

    shuddup and watch???

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    Default This thread has brought back memories of threads long past...

    A blip from last summer's madness....

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    A good GM keeps a championship team together.

    Joe D continues to screw with the roster.
    In response...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    As opposed to all those GOOD championship GMs, who never changed ANYTHING after the first title......
    You didn't really contradict yourself there, K, but you sure flirted with it...
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    There inlies the problem. They do deserve respect. They deserve respect for their very position. You may not have to give them respect each and every individual, but to think that the Miami Heat as a team isn't worthy of your respect is just hubris at it's fullest. Good thing for you that your team doesn't think like you do.
    I'm sure the pistons respect shaquille O'neal. Outside of that, no. I do not consider Miami a real threat. Beating New Jersey and Washington did not instill fear in me.

    Take your trophy? You'll always have the 2004 championship trophy. No one will EVER take it from you. This is 2005. Your name isn't on that tropy, nor is anyone elses. Your team is 25% of the field, not 100%. The Pistons are just as high up that mountain this year than the Spurs, and only a hair higher than Miami and the Suns.
    Ok, poor choice of words. I should have said "title", not "trophy."

    And yes, there's a mental block that comes into play when you're inexperienced and aspiring, and you're playing the team that is holding the spot that you want to reach. The only other team that has that kind of mental edge is San Antonio, and thats why I respect the **** out of them. Neither Miami nor Phoenix looks like they'll be able to mentally cope when it matters.

    Put it this way: if Miami wins games 1 and 2, Detroit knows they can win. Their confidence isn't affected. If Detroit wins games 1 and 2, there is some SERIOUS self-doubt on Miami, on wehter they are really championship material. Thats the benefit of having a group that knows they can win.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Where do you stand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Championship experience is the most improtant thing toa basketball team. More important than ANYTHING else. EVentually, you'll figure that out.
    No, talent is the most important thing to a basketball team. Without talent, you don't get championship experience, because you'll never get to the championship. If you even want to use that logic, then you're still not on top. The Spurs have two rings to your one, still above you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Again, why should the defending champ want to make changes? Do you know how hard it is to build that kind of team? What would be the purpose of breaking it up?
    Now which is it? Are you saying that they didn't need to make changes, or did need too? You've started out with one tune, changed it, now changed it back. Who said break up a team? Adding better role players hardly constitutes breaking up a team. Why sign Arroyo, if you're already the champs?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    You better hope the Pacers never win a championship then, because you don't get there (and stay there) WITHOUT being arrogant.
    I already mentioned the Spurs. Duncan is anything but arrogant. The Pistons, the actual team and not you, are anything but arrogant. They still have the mentality that they are underdogs. Sheed just ripped the media for not giving them credit, and Rip said that they use that as motivation. Tell them they need to be arrogant. Not being like that gives them their edge.

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