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Looking ahead part 3......

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  • #1

    Looking ahead part 3......

    Today we tackle the center spot.

    We have a total of 6 players that all can play min. at the center spot on the floor & one player who under dire circumstances can when called upon.

    Dale Davis, Jeff Foster, Scot Pollard, John Edwards, David Harrison & Jermaine O'neal all can play the spot & Austin under rare & special circumstances can play there as well.

    Truely, only Scot Pollard, John Edwards & David Harrison are centers. However as of now none of the above are starters & unless there is real dramatic improvement by Harrison over the summer none of them will start next season either.

    Right now I think you have to project Dale as the starter & no it's not just because I'm doing this. Rick has already stated he likes to bring Dale into the game warm from the pre-game & I just think he is more comfortable with Dale in there so right now, if he re-signs, my guess is Dale will start.

    Jeff will be the first big man off of the bench, if he is still here (I will cover this below) & he will play either half or maybe slightly more than half of the game.

    Harrison should be getting the rest of the min. & if he doesn't then there is either something wrong with him or we've made a move to get someone better.

    Pollard will have DNP-CD's by his name on some nights & then other nights he will play solid min. & will be the first big man used if either Dale or Jeff go down with injury's.

    Jermaine will play a lot at center next season if Foster is still here, just like he has for the past two seasons. He can be very affective in the center spot so if he plays min. there we will be fine.

    John Edwards will be on the I.R.L. next season & will probably dress for about 5-8 games. He will not play many min. & will only either be the concession player or the victory cigar.

    Now let's look at the players one by one.

    Dale Davis. He is still as strong as any player on our team & he still can get up & down the floor very well for his advanced age. He will have nights that will make us think he's 26 & then there will be nights where we will wonder if he didn't retire back in 96. What he is is everything Jermaine is not. He is rugged, he plays physical without getting flustered in the post. He is a great one on one defender & even though he doesn't have the hops anymore he still is one of the smartest defenders at the center spot in the NBA. Even if he doesn't start he would still be an asset to have coming off of the bench for the right price. & that is the key right there, the right price. I would think that the Pacers & Dale's agent have already talked about money & my guess is that they would never have even bothered with this season bringing him back if they didn't think there was a reasonable deal there.

    The Pacers should re-sign Dale for a reasonable salary & allow him to contribute about 20 min. a game (some nights more some nights less) & I think they will. He is a good locker room presence & with Reggie leaving I think Dale will fall into a leadership role on the team.

    Jeff Foster. There are going to be tons of people who will argue that Jeff should be the starter & maybe they are right. Heck, Carlisle may even agree & let Jeff start next season as well. But it's just my opinion that as long as Jermaine O'neal is the other player on the floor Jeff shouldn't be getting all of the min. here. I know U.B. & myself disagree over this but I do NOT beleive that Jeff Foster & Jermaine O'neal are an ideal match on the floor. Jeff was at his absolute best, IMO, when he & Dale played together, which shocked nobody more than me because I never would have guessed that that would have worked. IMO, he has proven that he is a dynamic bench player. A player that can come in & wreck absolute havoc when teams don't key on him.

    Here is the rub though. He is truely one of the Pacers best trading assets. A big man with a resonable contract will go a long long way in this league. By himself he won't garner much of a player, but packaged with another player he becomes a great trading tool for the team.

    Either way it goes there I will trust Walsh (did I just type that?) & whatever he decides. Jeff still has his weaknesses but he went a long way in the playoffs to erase the fact that he can't block shots, which was always one of my biggest b!tches with him.

    My guess is Jeff will still be here, but I wouldn't be shocked to see him elsewhere either.

    Scott Pollard. He is on the last year of his contract. That makes him a trading goldmine. But it also makes him valuable to the Pacers for the exact same reason. That is why I would not be shocked to see Jeff gone & Scott here so that they themselves get rid of some payroll. As a player he has his uses. He can face up & hit a 10' jumper. He can board, he takes up space underneath & he is a true legit center in size & strength. Like Dale, he is a good locker room guy from all reports & from his performances when the team was shorthanded he becamse somewhat of a fieldhouse favorite.

    To the shock of everybody, I think Pollard is here next year. However if the team tries to dump one of thier troubled children (pick your choice) then Scot could be packaged to make the deal go through. BTW, I have no problem with Scott staying on. He is still stone hands but he has his uses & he isn't afraid to mix it up under the board.

    David Harrison. Here is the real quandry. If David would just build on his early rookie year he makes any of the above three expendable (yes even Dale) but if how he ended his rookie year is anything like next season will be then he won't touch the floor. This guy has all of the tools to be a monster. He has size & strength the likes of which we have never seen on our team. He has a decent face up jumper & he was blocking shots so well that by his 3rd or 4th game in (I forget which) he was forcing other teams to adjust thier offense. He is a great team rebounder but doesn't rebound well himself (he boxes out sometimes 2 players at at time which allows others to get the boards but he just doesn't pick up the boards himself) which he has to improve on.

    Eddy Curry scares me in the future. David Harrison puts my mind at ease for the future, as long as he is early rookie David.

    You all will laugh at this but I'll say it anyway. I think if David could build on his early play that in 4-5 years he will be the best center in the NBA & will be an unstopable force for us. That is if everything & I mean everthing goes right for him.

    Again, people will laugh but I will say this. The one player on our team that I would consider untouchable is David Harrison. Now don't get me wrong if somebody said "hey, would you take Shaq for Harrison" of course I would. But to me the size of his contract & the size of him & the early play he showed makes me believe that no other player on our team has the potential that he does.

    So in review this is what I think should happen.

    1. Re-sign Dale.
    2. Work David Harrison to death over the summer & next season he should be the first backup center.
    3. Jeff will be the first big man off of the bench & he will play along side J.o. who will be the center when he is in.
    4. Scot will be the 10,11 or 12th man.
    5. Edwards for as little as possible to a contract.

    Jeff & Scot will be mentioned in trade rumors & I wouldn't be suprised to see either gone.

    My real problem is that we have a lot of depth at the center spot but to be honest not much quality. It will be center by commitee which can work, but I don't know for how long & against who.

    I would not mind an upgrade at the center spot.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Looking ahead part 3......

    Nice post! Im sorry Peck if i maybe change subject, but i just want to ask some questions about Edwards since i have never seen him play... Is he a good player? Whats his weak & strong sides?

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Looking ahead part 3......

      Originally posted by Peck

      (Dale Davis. He is still as strong as any player on our team)

      (David Harrison. He has size & strength the likes of which we have never seen on our team.)

      *Cough, cough*

      My real problem is that we have a lot of depth at the center spot but to be honest not much quality. It will be center by commitee which can work, but I don't know for how long & against who.

      I would not mind an upgrade at the center spot.

      (Yawn) . . . another good post by Peck. (grin)

      The only thing I question is your last statement is kind of generic. 'I would not mind an upgrade at the center spot.'

      I know this is your end of year position by position comments on the team, but I would like to see some posts from you when you get done with this, on who you would like to see on the team. (Other than Brad) (grin)

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Looking ahead part 3......

        Originally posted by 3ptmiller
        Nice post! Im sorry Peck if i maybe change subject, but i just want to ask some questions about Edwards since i have never seen him play... Is he a good player? Whats his weak & strong sides?
        Here is where I differ slightly from almost everybody else on here, ok one of the many things I differ on .

        I don't think Edwards is that bad.

        Don't get me wrong I don't think we will ever need to worry about his availabilty over all-star weekend or anything. I just think for a designated I.R.L. player & even a backup backup big man, I've seen worse.

        He has legitimate size & he has some strength. He is not very skilled but if he was he wouldn't have gone undrafted. He will never challenge any of the above for min. on the floor. Now if you think we should have used the money to sign a player who was more skilled & could really play if the situation merited it then I won't disagree.

        But in the long tradition of Sundovs, Grey's, Drielings, etc. he isn't the worst thing I've ever seen.


        Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Looking ahead part 3......

          Originally posted by Will Galen
          (Yawn) . . . another good post by Peck. (grin)

          The only thing I question is your last statement is kind of generic. 'I would not mind an upgrade at the center spot.'

          I know this is your end of year position by position comments on the team, but I would like to see some posts from you when you get done with this, on who you would like to see on the team. (Other than Brad) (grin)
          Yea, you kind of caught me witht that whole strength thing didn't you.

          How about this. David has size the likes of which we've never seen & for a rookie is probably the strongest Pacer rookie ever.

          Is that better?

          I know my last statment is generic & to be honest I meant for it to be that way. I would not be opposed to a trade for a better center if we could get one or I could also see going with the group we have & trying it again at the center spot.


          Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Looking ahead part 3......

            Originally posted by Peck
            Here is where I differ slightly from almost everybody else on here, ok one of the many things I differ on .

            I don't think Edwards is that bad.

            Don't get me wrong I don't think we will ever need to worry about his availabilty over all-star weekend or anything. I just think for a designated I.R.L. player & even a backup backup big man, I've seen worse.

            He has legitimate size & he has some strength. He is not very skilled but if he was he wouldn't have gone undrafted. He will never challenge any of the above for min. on the floor. Now if you think we should have used the money to sign a player who was more skilled & could really play if the situation merited it then I won't disagree.

            But in the long tradition of Sundovs, Grey's, Drielings, etc. he isn't the worst thing I've ever seen.
            With other words
            Weak Side: He sux at everything
            Good Side: He gets money for doing nothing?

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Looking ahead part 3......

              As UB mentioned in another thread, you can divide the team up into PG, swing players and power players. The distinction of PF and C is just a matter of matchups.

              JO is a weakside shotblocker so he should be matched up on the weaker post player from the other team. Since JO is going to swallow 35+ minutes, its really a matter of who is teamed up with him.

              DD and Foster give the Pacers a flexible lineup, big or fast. As DD gets on Harrison is going to have to get more of those minutes, it is important that he gets in shape over the off season.

              I think Edwards is the definitive 12th man. Tall and doesn't complain.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Looking ahead part 3......

                Good review Peck, I was just wondering though ... where did the SF spot review go?

                Regards,

                Mourning
                2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Looking ahead part 3......

                  Well, center's far and away your weakest position IMO. Mainly because while you have a ton of players who can spend time there, outside of JO, they all fit in this category: Good backup.

                  Except maybe for Harrison and that's hard to say at this point.

                  The problem is, I can't think of anyone in the 5 million or less range who'll be available this summer who could help you. Maybe someone will pop up later.
                  The poster formerly known as Rimfire

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Looking ahead part 3......

                    Originally posted by DisplacedKnick
                    Well, center's far and away your weakest position IMO. Mainly because while you have a ton of players who can spend time there, outside of JO, they all fit in this category: Good backup.

                    Except maybe for Harrison and that's hard to say at this point.

                    The problem is, I can't think of anyone in the 5 million or less range who'll be available this summer who could help you. Maybe someone will pop up later.
                    I don't know that I agree with this statement. Outside of Miami and San Antonio there are very few true centers in the league. I think that our group of "good backup" centers has the potential to be one of the best front-courts in the league. We have a ton of flexibility, veteran leadership, and an up-and-coming potential monster in Harrison. Is there any team's second unit that could really compare to a Foster-Harrison combo? Those two would start on half the teams in the NBA. Personally, I like going from an ONeal/Davis (or Pollard) starting line-up to the Foster/Harrison second unit. There will always be an experienced defensive/rebounding specialist on the floor with a real post threat. To me the big questions are how healthy Pollard will be and how much DD has left in the tank.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Looking ahead part 3......

                      Originally posted by Mourning
                      Good review Peck, I was just wondering though ... where did the SF spot review go?

                      Regards,

                      Mourning

                      Peck is only up to part three. The first part was point guards, two was shooting guards. This part of course is sinners . . . er centers. He hasn't posted either forward yet.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Looking ahead part 3......

                        Peck, I too was expecting your review of the small forward spot. But you skipped ahead to center.

                        Who is going to be a better player Harrison or Al Jefferson. I'd rather have Al.

                        I have real questions about Harrison, about whether he will ever be anywhere close to the physical condition he needs to be. If he doesn't he'll never amount to much.

                        Next season if Pollard can be as healthy and in as good a shape as he was to start this season he'll be a huge help, remember how good he was for the first 3 or 4 weeks of the season, I remember the game at Minnesota in November as an example. But then his back started acting up

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Looking ahead part 3......

                          Originally posted by recap
                          I don't know that I agree with this statement. Outside of Miami and San Antonio there are very few true centers in the league. I think that our group of "good backup" centers has the potential to be one of the best front-courts in the league.
                          Potential? What's this talk about potential?

                          Dale Davis is 36 and has been in the league 14 years
                          Jeff Foster is 28 and has been in the league 6 years
                          Scott Pollard is 30 and has been in the league 8 years - and hasn't been healthy in 4
                          David Harrison has shown some promise but the only world where he's a "potential monster" is the one where he and Jon Bender are the only two basketball players in existence.

                          I've seen the word potential tossed around here pretty badly but this is one of the worst uses of it I can remember. The center production you had this year will very likely be your production next year - though again, Harrison could be pretty decent eventually.

                          As for teams with better center rotations:

                          Boston (Lafrentz, Blount, Jefferson)
                          Chicago (Davis, Curry, Chandler
                          Denver (Camby, Nene)
                          New Jersey (Krstic, Collins, Robinson)
                          Miami
                          Spurs
                          Jazz (Okur, Borchardt, Boozer)
                          Houston (Yao, Mutombo)
                          Dallas (Dampier, Nowitzki)
                          Detroit (don't think I need to explain that one)
                          Clippers (Kaman, Wilcox)
                          Philly (Dalembert, Jackson, Rogers)
                          Phoenix (Stoudamire, Hunter)

                          Heck, I'm not so sure I wouldn't take the Bucks (Gadzurich, Pachulia), Cleveland (Ilgauskas, Traylor) or Warriors (Foyle, Cabarkapa) over Indy's centers.
                          The poster formerly known as Rimfire

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Looking ahead part 3......

                            I agree, Peck.

                            It's just a feeling I have, but I think there will be changes made over the summer and I can see either Foster or Pollard being packaged with another player to try and make some upgrades. And I can easily see Memphis being a trading partner. Here's why: West likes Foster and the Pacers came extremely close on pulling the trigger on a deal that would have sent him to Memphis at the beginning of the 2003-04 season. At the time, it would have been a salary dump, but Foster's value has surely increased since then. And Memphis has a stockpool of talent that might be of interest to us.

                            The question is, who would Foster or Pollard be packaged with and for whom?

                            Honestly, I have no idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was either Ron or Jermaine. Or Tins or AJ, for that matter. But I'm sure it hasn't been lost on both Donnie and Larry that the Pacers lost to the Pistons in 6 with Ron, and without him. True, there may have been significant improvements in his game since the ECFs, but his game has never been the issue. I'll leave it at that for now because we're getting ahead of ourselves and I'm sure Peck is saving the best for last.

                            I'll end on this note: The real star of this team is Rick Carlisle and the trick will be to build a team around him. He's a special coach. As I pointed out to Kstat in another thread, it took Larry Brown over 25 years and far more than 4 playoff appearances to win a title. Rick will do it much sooner.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Looking ahead part 3......

                              Originally posted by DisplacedKnick
                              Potential? What's this talk about potential?

                              Dale Davis is 36 and has been in the league 14 years
                              Jeff Foster is 28 and has been in the league 6 years
                              Scott Pollard is 30 and has been in the league 8 years - and hasn't been healthy in 4
                              David Harrison has shown some promise but the only world where he's a "potential monster" is the one where he and Jon Bender are the only two basketball players in existence.

                              I've seen the word potential tossed around here pretty badly but this is one of the worst uses of it I can remember. The center production you had this year will very likely be your production next year - though again, Harrison could be pretty decent eventually.

                              As for teams with better center rotations:

                              Boston (Lafrentz, Blount, Jefferson)
                              Chicago (Davis, Curry, Chandler
                              Denver (Camby, Nene)
                              New Jersey (Krstic, Collins, Robinson)
                              Miami
                              Spurs
                              Jazz (Okur, Borchardt, Boozer)
                              Houston (Yao, Mutombo)
                              Dallas (Dampier, Nowitzki)
                              Detroit (don't think I need to explain that one)
                              Clippers (Kaman, Wilcox)
                              Philly (Dalembert, Jackson, Rogers)
                              Phoenix (Stoudamire, Hunter)

                              Heck, I'm not so sure I wouldn't take the Bucks (Gadzurich, Pachulia), Cleveland (Ilgauskas, Traylor) or Warriors (Foyle, Cabarkapa) over Indy's centers.

                              I guess that I wasn't clear. I think about the pf and center positions together, so what the Pacers need is the guy to compliment JO in the first unit and in the second unit a guy that can score from the post and a second player that is a great rebounder/defender. If we are talking about pure centers/post players that can do it all, then you're right, our guys are all second-stringers. However, if we are talking about a group that can compliment JO and give teams a bunch of different looks, then our group of centers is better than most of the groups you listed above. For example, the first team you listed was Boston. I would actually argue that by most standards Foster, DD, Harrison, and Pollard are better than LaFrentz, Blount, and Jefferson (granted Jefferson has the most upside), but if we are talking about a combo of any of those players plus Walker, I will take JO and our guy. We argued last summer alot about who would be better than who we have to pair with JO. Since we obtained Davis, I don't think there are many players that we could add that would improve the Pacers at center and give us more flexibility.

                              As far as potential, I meant what I said. This group has the potential to be a great group of centers that are smart, veteran, play good defense, and compliment JO perfectly. It is potentially a great group because we have never ...not for one game, seen them all healthy and available at the same time. So as far as potential, outside of Harrison, I'm not talking about liklihood of individual improvement. I'm talking about potential as in the potential for a group to be great together.

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