View Poll Results: PD versin of MFK - What do you do with PG13?

Voters
105. You may not vote on this poll
  • Keep PG13 and "Go ALL IN"

    53 50.48%
  • Trade PG13 and "Re-TOOL"

    13 12.38%
  • Trade PG13 and "Re-BUILD"

    33 31.43%
  • Other?

    6 5.71%
Page 19 of 19 FirstFirst ... 91516171819
Results 451 to 470 of 470

Thread: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

  1. #451
    Member ksuttonjr76's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Posts
    5,305

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm saying that on paper doesn't matter. The season is over. And the choices Larry made, even though they may have looked good, were not good. And there were clues to every single bad move.

    Monta
    Stuckey
    Al Jefferson

    People on this very board explained why this would not work in the preseason. It's like when the Colts went all in on Andre Johnson and such and people predicted Super Bowl. They didn't make the playoffs. Just because they looked good on paper doesn't mean Grigson didn't mess up.
    A good move on paper is still a good move on paper. Whether or not it works out in actual execution is a different story. If it doesn't work out, then you go back to the drawing board and try again.


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

  2. #452
    2017-18 Starting PG? BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    22,739

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    The moves looked good in a vacuum and individually "on paper". But fact is, while Bird acquired some talent, it didn't fit together well. It really is that simple.
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to BlueNGold For This Useful Post:


  4. #453
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,745

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    I'm still trying to figure out how anyone thought that Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis, LaVoy Allen & Al Jefferson even looked good on paper.

    From day one it was clear that our back court was to small, not athletic enough and could not shoot. While our front court was to slow, unathletic and could not shoot.

    This group of free agent signings from last year never looked good on paper or otherwise to me.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  5. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Peck For This Useful Post:


  6. #454
    Member ksuttonjr76's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Posts
    5,305

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm still trying to figure out how anyone thought that Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis, LaVoy Allen & Al Jefferson even looked good on paper.

    From day one it was clear that our back court was to small, not athletic enough and could not shoot. While our front court was to slow, unathletic and could not shoot.

    This group of free agent signings from last year never looked good on paper or otherwise to me.
    It depends on what you thought their role should have been....Players like these fit specific needs on teams.
    Last edited by ksuttonjr76; 05-23-2017 at 07:39 PM.


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

  7. #455
    --------- freddielewis14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    indianapolis
    Posts
    6,605

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm still trying to figure out how anyone thought that Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis, LaVoy Allen & Al Jefferson even looked good on paper.

    From day one it was clear that our back court was to small, not athletic enough and could not shoot. While our front court was to slow, unathletic and could not shoot.

    This group of free agent signings from last year never looked good on paper or otherwise to me.
    So this is what I thought, Teague and Monta starting would work because Monta would just pass and get steals always cutting to basket. Turner and Thad would be an above average frontcourt rebounding and defense while great scoring. PG would be PG and mask anything we lost from Teague defensively and we would continue to get fast-break points, fueling our offense.

    I thought the bench would be Brooks/Stuckey/GRIII/CJ Miles/Al Jeff. I thought the defense would be bad, but Al would wreck bench units and kick out 3s all day to CJ Miles and Brooks and the offense would just over power teams.

    Obviously none of that happened, but just to give an idea on how someone thought it looked good on paper.

  8. #456
    --------- freddielewis14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    indianapolis
    Posts
    6,605

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    A good move on paper is still a good move on paper. Whether or not it works out in actual execution is a different story. If it doesn't work out, then you go back to the drawing board and try again.
    But whats the point here?

    I say Bird failed, and this situation with PG and our mediocre record is the fault of the Pacers FO.

    Your response is that it's not their fault, the moves looked good on paper.

    Who cares if the moves look good on paper? It didn't succeed, so the FO failed. If the moves looked terrible on paper yet the Pacers were still playing right now then the FO succeeded.

  9. #457
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Evansville
    Posts
    1,179

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm still trying to figure out how anyone thought that Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis, LaVoy Allen & Al Jefferson even looked good on paper.

    From day one it was clear that our back court was to small, not athletic enough and could not shoot. While our front court was to slow, unathletic and could not shoot.

    This group of free agent signings from last year never looked good on paper or otherwise to me.
    Need some clarification, you thought the frontcourt was slow, unathletic, and couldn't shoot? Our front court being PG, Thad, and Myles?

    Re-read this, I guess you are talking about the second unit.

  10. #458
    2017-18 Starting PG? BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    22,739

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm still trying to figure out how anyone thought that Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis, LaVoy Allen & Al Jefferson even looked good on paper.

    From day one it was clear that our back court was to small, not athletic enough and could not shoot. While our front court was to slow, unathletic and could not shoot.

    This group of free agent signings from last year never looked good on paper or otherwise to me.
    You have to write their names on the paper and cut it into pieces. On their own, none of those guys are bad backups with the right mix of players. But they fit together so poorly their weaknesses show as gaping holes. Monta and Al actually were considered near all-star at one point or another in their careers. Those are not bad backups.
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

  11. #459
    Member pta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    58
    Posts
    63
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm still trying to figure out how anyone thought that Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis, LaVoy Allen & Al Jefferson even looked good on paper.

    From day one it was clear that our back court was to small, not athletic enough and could not shoot. While our front court was to slow, unathletic and could not shoot.

    This group of free agent signings from last year never looked good on paper or otherwise to me.
    Jefferson is the only new player on that list. His poor condition and inability to play defense was not a given. Stucky was duplication but he was good his first year with us prior to injury. Ellis lost his speed an is much inferior to his younger self. Those choices were not the best but were not clearly as bad as they became.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to pta For This Useful Post:


  13. #460
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    44
    Posts
    32,054

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm still trying to figure out how anyone thought that Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis, LaVoy Allen & Al Jefferson even looked good on paper.

    From day one it was clear that our back court was to small, not athletic enough and could not shoot. While our front court was to slow, unathletic and could not shoot.

    This group of free agent signings from last year never looked good on paper or otherwise to me.
    It's easy....these are all Players that played very well in Bird's perceived version of the NBA. They would have worked fine in the 2000 Team that made it to the NBA finals, they would have worked out well in the recent ECF version of the Pacers.....but they don't work well in the Stephen Curry version of the NBA where the 3pt shot is king. This was one of the reasons why I think that it was time for Bird to go......his view of the NBA is no longer compatible with the actual NBA as it stands now. He built a Team for the 90s to the GH/Lance/PG13/West/Hibbert version of the Pacers.....the problem is that the rest of the NBA moved on.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

  14. #461
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,745

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It's easy....these are all Players that played very well in Bird's perceived version of the NBA. They would have worked fine in the 2000 Team that made it to the NBA finals, they would have worked out well in the recent ECF version of the Pacers.....but they don't work well in the Stephen Curry version of the NBA where the 3pt shot is king. This was one of the reasons why I think that it was time for Bird to go......his view of the NBA is no longer compatible with the actual NBA as it stands now. He built a Team for the 90s to the GH/Lance/PG13/West/Hibbert version of the Pacers.....the problem is that the rest of the NBA moved on.
    See I disagree with this because IMO Bird was way to obsessed trying to be like G.S. East. He just went about it very poorly. The more and more I have thought about it the more I believe that the reason Satan was extended that extra year is because Bird in all honesty prefers that type of basketball and wanted us to desperately win that way. I think Frank came in and completely ruined what Bird was thinking by winning with the same group of players playing a totally different style of basketball. Yes the NBA moved on but you are not going to win trying to out Warrior the Warriors unless you can somehow come up with at least two of the greatest shooters of all time playing together and unselfishly in the back court.

    Think about why he and Paul had the falling out, it was because Bird wanted to go so small that he wanted Paul to have to play power forward. This is not but three years removed from Paul playing shooting guard.

    I think where Bird went wrong and ultimately the downfall came when Larry just absolutely gave up on even pretending that team chemistry was a thing. Sure we can have a run and gun team and we can even be successful with it but you have to have the right players and type of players and make them all fit together. Larry just felt like you could throw five good player together give them a ball and it would all work out no matter their skill set.

    Let's not forget that those teams that were built for the 90's as you say, actually twice were in the final four teams left playing at the end of the year and one time it took everything that the Heat had to get past us. That is a far cry from the faster paced offensive tempo team he wanted us to be the past 2 seasons.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  15. #462
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,745

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by pta View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Jefferson is the only new player on that list. His poor condition and inability to play defense was not a given. Stucky was duplication but he was good his first year with us prior to injury. Ellis lost his speed an is much inferior to his younger self. Those choices were not the best but were not clearly as bad as they became.
    His conditioning you could argue was in question, obviously according to Pritchard he reported to camp way out of shape. However his inability to play defense was never in question. I am not joking with you when I say several years ago (probably 8 by now) I wrote an entire odd thoughts based on watching Al Jefferson and Troy Murphy play against each other and try and determine who cared about defense less.

    At the peak of his career Al was a below average defender, but for most of his career he has been a horrendous defender, this past season was just a continuation of his horrendous defense just now he has the added excuse of weight and age to help justify why it is even worse than normal.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  16. #463
    Member pta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    58
    Posts
    63
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    His conditioning you could argue was in question, obviously according to Pritchard he reported to camp way out of shape. However his inability to play defense was never in question. I am not joking with you when I say several years ago (probably 8 by now) I wrote an entire odd thoughts based on watching Al Jefferson and Troy Murphy play against each other and try and determine who cared about defense less.

    At the peak of his career Al was a below average defender, but for most of his career he has been a horrendous defender, this past season was just a continuation of his horrendous defense just now he has the added excuse of weight and age to help justify why it is even worse than normal.
    I agree that Jefferson has not been a good defender. His defense has become a disaster. He moves like molasses and is often winded. He can only perform repetitive automatic offensive moves. He has become unplayable. His defense was poor and is now nonexistent.

    Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk

  17. #464
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    44
    Posts
    32,054

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    See I disagree with this because IMO Bird was way to obsessed trying to be like G.S. East. He just went about it very poorly. The more and more I have thought about it the more I believe that the reason Satan was extended that extra year is because Bird in all honesty prefers that type of basketball and wanted us to desperately win that way. I think Frank came in and completely ruined what Bird was thinking by winning with the same group of players playing a totally different style of basketball. Yes the NBA moved on but you are not going to win trying to out Warrior the Warriors unless you can somehow come up with at least two of the greatest shooters of all time playing together and unselfishly in the back court.
    I think that we are talking about 2 different things....one that you allude to and one that is a different topic.

    It is possible that Bird prefers the Warriors style of Play and preferred the JO'B style of NBA Basketball. But that's seperate from the type of Players that he prefers to have on his roster.

    JMHO....but all of the Players that are mentioned in this specific topic....Stuckey, Monta, Lavoy and AlJeff....TOTALLY DO NOT FIT the mold of Players that anyone would want for a Warriors EAST lineup. None of those Player promote ball movement nor are capable shooters from the 3pt line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Think about why he and Paul had the falling out, it was because Bird wanted to go so small that he wanted Paul to have to play power forward. This is not but three years removed from Paul playing shooting guard.

    I think where Bird went wrong and ultimately the downfall came when Larry just absolutely gave up on even pretending that team chemistry was a thing. Sure we can have a run and gun team and we can even be successful with it but you have to have the right players and type of players and make them all fit together. Larry just felt like you could throw five good player together give them a ball and it would all work out no matter their skill set.
    As I've been saying....he's too old school cuz that's what he was familar with during his Celtic days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Let's not forget that those teams that were built for the 90's as you say, actually twice were in the final four teams left playing at the end of the year and one time it took everything that the Heat had to get past us. That is a far cry from the faster paced offensive tempo team he wanted us to be the past 2 seasons.
    I think that Bird recognized this ( style=fast paced ball movement 3pt shooting ) but he thought that he can acquire the type of talent that he prefers ( all old school type Players that worked in the 90s and early 2000s ), put them into a bowl, mix it together and hope that they figure things out on their own.
    Last edited by CableKC; 05-24-2017 at 03:14 AM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to CableKC For This Useful Post:


  19. #465
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    57
    Posts
    16,630

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think where Bird went wrong and ultimately the downfall came when Larry just absolutely gave up on even pretending that team chemistry was a thing.
    If you change "chemistry" to "complementary players" you've got my thought exactly. Bird thinks every player should be able to adjust his skillset to fit with every other player on a moment's notice (or at least within a single training camp) and without a coach defining whose skillsets need to be what.
    BillS

    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

  20. #466
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    34,381

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm still trying to figure out how anyone thought that Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis, LaVoy Allen & Al Jefferson even looked good on paper.

    From day one it was clear that our back court was to small, not athletic enough and could not shoot. While our front court was to slow, unathletic and could not shoot.

    This group of free agent signings from last year never looked good on paper or otherwise to me.
    I agree. I did think and still think acquiring Teague and Young were excellent trades (Not franchise changing trades by any means) but solid trades. Everything else the same, minus Teague, Young, plus Hill and whoever we would have taken at number 20 and we win fewer games than what we did. I was never in favor of Al Jefferson. Big slow centers are of little use in todays NBA. I didn't like them 10 years ago and like them even less now.

    I do like Stuckey, when he is healthy and thought he helped us win some games coming of the bench.

    The mix overall did not work. If it weren't for Teague (after December) and PG last season this team would have won 20 games. In addition this team severally lacked effort, energy, hustle players, aggressive players, enthusiastic players. Thinking about it now, winning as many games as they did was a nice accomplishment

  21. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Unclebuck For This Useful Post:


  22. #467
    Member owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,829

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    This is going to be a very interesting next 45 days.
    {o,o}
    |)__)
    -"-"-

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to owl For This Useful Post:


  24. #468
    Member jrwannabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Ames, IA
    Posts
    1,774

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm still trying to figure out how anyone thought that Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis, LaVoy Allen & Al Jefferson even looked good on paper.

    From day one it was clear that our back court was to small, not athletic enough and could not shoot. While our front court was to slow, unathletic and could not shoot.

    This group of free agent signings from last year never looked good on paper or otherwise to me.
    It has been mentioned many times that it should have been Stuckey or Ellis (not both). Al was a questionable signing to begin with as Bird said he wanted to move to being a running team. Al may have worked if Frank was still here where he'd play the whole bench at the sametime and could have had the second unit slow the pace down.

    Allen is irrelevant as he is a 4th or 5th big on a small contract that can help in certain situations.

    Brooks would have worked if Lance was on the team at the beginning of the season.

    The problem was the players as individuals look good on paper, but as a team of these individuals it was a mess.

  25. #469
    --------- freddielewis14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    indianapolis
    Posts
    6,605

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?




    You would think he'd already have on the Laker hat reading this board.

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to freddielewis14 For This Useful Post:


  27. #470
    Member ksuttonjr76's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Posts
    5,305

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: POLL - What do you want to do with PG13?

    Quote Originally Posted by jrwannabe View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It has been mentioned many times that it should have been Stuckey or Ellis (not both). Al was a questionable signing to begin with as Bird said he wanted to move to being a running team. Al may have worked if Frank was still here where he'd play the whole bench at the sametime and could have had the second unit slow the pace down.

    Allen is irrelevant as he is a 4th or 5th big on a small contract that can help in certain situations.

    Brooks would have worked if Lance was on the team at the beginning of the season.

    The problem was the players as individuals look good on paper, but as a team of these individuals it was a mess.
    Man...I still think Joe Young could have become a better player this past season with the minutes given to Brooks. I was cool with the signing at first, then I saw him play.


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •