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Thread: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

  1. #1
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    This thread is based on a premise: that the Pacers will trade Tinsley for a higher spot in the draft in order to nab one of three very good point guards available this year.

    Given that scenario, I'd like to hear opinions on the three available players: Paul, Williams and Felton.

    I can't comment on Paul from Wake Forest because I didn't see him play--don't follow college hoops much anymore. However, I did get to see the final four and championship in person, so I saw Williams and Felton twice in the biggest games of their careers.

    On Devon Williams: Solid player. Strong leadership ability. Clutch shooter. At 6' 3'', in a better position than the other two to D up opposing point guards. Is known already as a strong defender.

    His weaknesses include not being as athletic as the others. If the Pacers picked up Williams, I'd be happy. He would provide the outside threat we've been missing with Tinsley and would be a better point guard than AJ. He's be a better defender than both.

    On Raymond Felton: This is the player I'd love to see the Pacers pick up. But it would be risky. He could be the key link to gain a ring, or he could be another Tinsley.

    During the Final Four, it was very clear that Felton was the most valuable player. They gave the award to Scott May, and props to him for playing well. But take away Felton from North Carolina and you have just another good team--not a champion. When he was out of the game, they struggled greatly.

    He runs the floor incredibly well. He's as good or better than Jamaal at this. Scouts say his halfcourt offense needs work but he has improved with each year. The same is true for his shooting. His percentage went from, I think 40 percent to 42 percent to 46 percent in three years.

    However, I think Tinsley's shooting percentage has improved as well. With the above description, you can see how I fear that drafting Felton might be just more of the same.

    However, here's the two big differences IMO. The game-changing shot in the national championships was a three by Felton. This is an isolated incident, but I believe other situations would show that he is a performer under pressure. Clutch. When you get to game sixes and sevens in the finals of the NBA playoffs, it really comes down to that. The Pistons have at least four players who are clutch in those situations. The Pacers had one this year and he is retiring. I think Jax is close. I also think Artest is clutch. But we need another clutch player, especially at point guard.

    The second key difference. Felton was the leader for North Carolina. He was the leader OF THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONS. That's big. Because of this, I think it is possible he could come into the NBA and start immediately and be a force. Jamaal did as much, and didn't have a college ring on his resume.

    Those are my thoughts. I'd like to hear you guys's opinions, especially regarding Paul. Also, it would be interesting to hear about which teams might do a trade for us to get a higher draft pick.

    McKeyFan

  2. #2
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    Well IF we are going to trade up ... than I am thinking it might be better to keep Tinsley as the starter and trade say AJ or Freddie, both of whom I like as players btw, and maybe Pollard and our first rounder for this or preferably next year.

    This way Tins can stay, which I think is a good thing as I believe we need a very good penetrator-distributor with JO, Ron and SJax around all wanting their shots, but in this scenario we can afford to play him less minutes (between 28-32 min. a game) to keep him a little more durable during the regular season, Gill and our draft pick could than play the other minutes.

    By doing this our rookie DOES play substantial minutes in the regular season, while learning on a veteran team, while Tins still could lead at the important moments. This way we could have two good PGs who won't buckle under the number of minutes they have to play and who knows it might make Tins expandable on the long term.

    Question, offcourse, is IF Rick will play this rookie and limit Tins minutes in the regular? I think Bird and Walsh would have to seriously press him, but it could be worth it, certainly on the long term. Also do we want to waite for another rookie to develop or might it be much wiser to trade for a more veteran player who has been in the league for a few more years. I shy away from the term "impact player" as we have no idea how much we would be trading up AND that if we would be trading up a lot we could get an "impact player" almost by definition.

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    Mourning
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    There is no chance in Hades I would trade up in the draft and lose Tinsley to get either Chris Paul OR ECSPECIALLY Deron Williams. That would be just a nutso move for Larry. I don't even think I'd pick up Williams w/the 18th pick in the draft. Realisticaly on who will be available, I'd rather have Sean May or in my perfect world draft Felton, but there is no way he'll be around at 18. I wouldn't trade Tinsley for him either.
    That is all.
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    IMO Jarrett Jack will be a quality starting PG eventually - and you don't have to make a move because he'll be there when you draft.

    Forget Paul - nobody's gonna give you a top-3 pick for anything less than Jermaine.

    Personally I think you need a center much worse than a PG anyway - it's the only position on the team I'd consider a weakness. Though you can take a bruiser-type PF.

    If Wayne Simien's on the board when you pick, you need to take him. He's a touch undersized height-wize but with his strength that won't matter much. Guys who give 20-11 for a program like Kansas are for real. You're talking a guy who's very strong witha ton of moves in the post and who can shoot from 18-feet on in.

    To be honest, I have a hard time believing he'll drop that far but a lot of the mocks have him going 20-25. Plus he can step in and help you right away - otherwise you might want to look at someone like Blatche.

    If you're gonna get past the Pistons, you need more beef.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  5. #5
    Member Knucklehead Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    It doesn't strike me as sound management to trade our starting PG for a chance on a rook who might not be able to fill even Eddie Gill's shoes. I don't follow college sports, so forgive my ignorance on these guys, but we're about to embark on a championship season here, not rebuild through the draft.

    If we can convince Tins to be ready for next season and also cut his minutes and his knucklehead plays, to then mostly just dish instead of taking on both wallaces in a lone drive to the basket, then maybe this all works out. When we have more offensive threats next year, his offense must of necessity become of the assist variety.

    I recall that demoting him to 3rd in the rotation a couple years ago is what got him turned around. If AJ somehow gets promoted, that might be the catalyst. Think this is what RC has in mind for changes? I've read what everybody's been saying about trading Tins and it just doesn't seem plausable to me.

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    Member Isaac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    Deron Williams will be a bust, mark my words on that one.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    It is too big of a risk to trade your starting point guard for potential in what could be your championship season.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    [QUOTE=DisplacedKnick]


    If Wayne Simien's on the board when you pick, you need to take him. He's a touch undersized height-wize but with his strength that won't matter much. Guys who give 20-11 for a program like Kansas are for real. You're talking a guy who's very strong witha ton of moves in the post and who can shoot from 18-feet on in.

    To be honest, I have a hard time believing he'll drop that far but a lot of the mocks have him going 20-25. Plus he can step in and help you right away - otherwise you might want to look at someone like Blatche.

    QUOTE]

    Wayne Simien is projected so low because he has a history of injuries. He's a good player but I don't think we need to pursue someone who has that kind of injured track record.
    Dallas Clark>Tony Gonzalez

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    Member TheHotShot31's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    I hope Sean May is still around when the Pacers Draft.

  10. #10
    McThugg
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    Deron Williams will be a very solid PG as a rookie and be a stud within 2 yrs. mark my words

  11. #11
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    I'm surprised at the Williams bashing. I think he's going to be very good. I couldn't tell you the last time I was this high on a college point.

    That said, I don't want a rookie point guard. Or a rookie anything, for that matter. After waiting for all our HS'ers to grow up, I think I've earned a reprieve from rookies for the next 5 years or so.
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    Go Paytherth! rel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    im hoping we pick a hakim warrick or a ronnie turiaf

    im not the biggest sean may fan cause of his undersized height

    martell webster (HS shooting guard) is a guy projected in the top 12 is a guy i hope falls back to 17 for us, although thats unlikey

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    How do "Draft" and "Starting Point Guard" go together?

    Point Guard is the hardest position in the league to learn to play consistently. The only recent PG to come out of the draft with an ability to immediately work within the league was LeBron, and there isn't another one of those available. Even he hit the Rookie Wall (I felt Carmelo was much more Rookie-of-the-year material by the end of the season).

    If you are a team that is looking for someone to build around, that's a valid risk to take. Otherwise, you need someone with some years in the league.
    BillS

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  14. #14
    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    Ronnie Turiaf will be drafted in the late first or early second round. May will be a improved version of Al Harrington, who is not a bad player.
    I would not be surprised at anthing that happens in this draft. They may try
    to trade up, see last year, or they may stand pat, or they may trade the pick to some team to get a 1st next year that is higher.


    owl

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    Member Isaac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    Heres my draft breakdown for the Pacers:

    Scenario #1 (most unlikely)

    Hakim Warrick, Sean May, and Wayne Simien are all still available when we are on the board. We should absolutly draft Hakim Warrick. He is extremely athletic and is a fantastic shot blocker. He can slash to the basket and score very well, would be a perfect backup for JO. I absolutly think he should be the one we get if available. However, I see him being gone by the time we draft.

    Scenario #2

    Warrick gone, Simien and May still available. Draft Sean May. People think he is too undersized to play in the NBA, but I completley disagree. What he lacks in Height he makes up for in pure strength. People also underrate his speed. He can get up and down the court faster then most guys his size. He needs to work on his post defense, but its not far off of where he should be. His outside shot has room to develop, but he is absolutly a better shooter then guys like Dale. I would definitley compare him to Elton Brand, he may not be as good, but he can be a solid 14-10 guy in the league.

    Scenario #3

    May is picked, Warrick is picked, Simien available. I like Wayne Simien, but I don't want him on this team. We have had a bad track record with injuries, it will be too frustrating to add to that. I say we make a trade with Miami, for the 29th spot. Package up Scot Pollard and Fred Jones for Miami's pick and Damon Jones. With the 29th pick we can select Kennedy Winston from Alabama or Jarret Jack (if available.)

    Why it helps us: We improve our outside shooting by acquiring Damon Jones, an excellent outside shooter. We drop Pollards huge contract. Drafting Kennedy Winston gives us another tough defender who is big SG or SF. He can back up Artest or Jack, and it gives us more depth. If Jarrett Jack is still available (possible, but unlikely) then we can take him and it gives us room to shop AJ around, or gives us a good competion for back up PG.

    Why it helps Miami: They get a big body in Pollard to back up Shaq, they are displeased with Michael Doleac as a backup, and Pollard is a big body they like. They get Fred Jones, a guy who has shown flashes of being a very good player. He would be a good backup guy for them, plus they get a higher draft pick to possibly pick a guy like Wayne Simien.

    I like the third scenario the most, what do you guys think.

  16. #16
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    by all acounts, chris paul is going to be stud point guard. it's almost a lock too that he'll be gone by #3. i doubt we can get him for tinsley.

    both felton and deron williams are likely high lottery picks as well, but the chances of landing them in a trade for tins is higher. i'd go more with williams i guess; he fits more into the mold of what the pacers are looking for in a point guard.

    nevertheless, i'd prefer a veteran point, whether it's tinsley or another guy.

  17. #17
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    I saw on Hoopshype that the Chicago Tribune reports Williams has moved into the top 4 with Bogut, Maurice Williams, and Paul. No way we can get him without giving up a major player.
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  18. #18
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    Surely we can trade Bender for the 5th pick in the draft? ...At least a top 10 pick? Top 15???? Any pick in the first round???? Second round????

    And that is why I call him a bust.
    --------

    I don't really want a rookie PG as the starter. We really need a veteran presence at that position. It might be arguable whether that can be Tinsley or not (thru injuries or mental mistakes) but a rookie really presents lots of obstacles.

    It's a gamble on whether their game will rise to an NBA level for 82 games.

    "Rookie Wall" ring any bells?

    Do we really want to gamble a season or two to even see if this rookie can 'get it'?

    Does anyone in their right mind think Carlisle would play a rookie PG at all... let alone start him (regardless of his potential)?

    -Bball



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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    I saw on Hoopshype that the Chicago Tribune reports Williams has moved into the top 4 with Bogut, Maurice Williams, and Paul. No way we can get him without giving up a major player.
    I'd take Williams over Paul myself because of size. His college game reminds me of Andre Miller's at the same stage with better defense - really knows how to control and run an offense.

    If you're heart's set on a PG, DW needs to call Jarrett Jack and tell him you want him with your first pick so he stays in the draft.

    The problem is, he's a rookie PG and he isn't named Magic. That means it'll be 2-3 years before he really helps you.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  20. #20
    Diesel
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    I don't think I would trade Tinsley for any of the pg available for this draft. I don't see anyone of them coming and being able to start right away other then maybe Williams. Chris Paul i think is a little overated, im just not a big fan of his.

    With the 17th pick i would like to see them either go for Wayne Simien, if he didn't have durability concerns he would be a lottery pick. Other then Oneal none all of our other big men can't score with there back to the basket. Also another guy who I like a lot is the higschooler Martell Webster. I think he's fundamentally sound, good shooter, good athlete and already has a NBA body for the two guard position. He's somebody down the road who who can help us.

    One person I do not want to see them pick is Warrick. It's not that hes a bad player but I think there will be better players available at that spot then he. Ive watched alot of him, I don't know if his game will translate well on this team. In college he scored off fastbreaks and tip ins. He doesn't have true smallforward skills and doesn't have much of a low post game. He might be a classic tweener. He might be a good fit on a team like Pheonix but I think he would struggle on a team like this.

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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel
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    I One person I do not want to see them pick is Warrick.
    I agree with you on this 100%. I'm a SU fan and he hasn't done anything to improve his game since he came into college. He's gotten stronger but that's about it - his game is still all athleticism, he has no shot outside 15 feet (not very good outside of 10), isn't a great ballhandler, etc., etc.

    If he gone from nothing to what he is I'd say rock and roll but he hasn't put the work into his game I think he needed to - a reliable 20-foot jump shot and he's a top ten pick easy.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyPacers67
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    Scenario #2

    Warrick gone, Simien and May still available. Draft Sean May. People think he is too undersized to play in the NBA, but I completley disagree. What he lacks in Height he makes up for in pure strength. People also underrate his speed. He can get up and down the court faster then most guys his size. He needs to work on his post defense, but its not far off of where he should be. His outside shot has room to develop, but he is absolutly a better shooter then guys like Dale. I would definitley compare him to Elton Brand, he may not be as good, but he can be a solid 14-10 guy in the league.
    This would be a good pick. Another Indiana high school player was considered to be a tweener in size much like May. Sounds pretty much the way Zach Randolph was described.

  23. #23
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Surely we can trade Bender for the 5th pick in the draft? ...At least a top 10 pick? Top 15???? Any pick in the first round???? Second round????"

    Anytime I see Marion play, or any of those good players we passed up for Bender, I just want to cry.

    Believe it or not, this will be Bender's 7th season with the Pacers. I hope there isnt anyone that is still hoping to "see it all" from him.

  24. #24
    Member Isaac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trading up to Draft a Starting Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Anytime I see Marion play, or any of those good players we passed up for Bender, I just want to cry.
    Man, I couldn't agree with you more

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Believe it or not, this will be Bender's 7th season with the Pacers. I hope there isnt anyone that is still hoping to "see it all" from him.
    I have to admit, I thought this past year was going to be his breakout, unforunately...

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