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Looking ahead part 1......

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  • #16
    Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Originally posted by foretaz
    which leaves u with a point guard that ARGUABLY has a durability problem....which means u need to address his conditioning and his backup....hopefully he gets himself in superior condition and comes into camp ready to play a whole season....if not u have a great backup on the bench that will be one of the first guys off the bench anyway and will allow tins to play fewer minutes throughout the season, thus hopefully adding to his freshness come playoff time...and aj is not that guy...
    Originally posted by foretaz
    as for aj, hes been a great trooper this year....and he has really shined as best he can in his added role....which means his trade value will never be higher....so he will fit nicely in whatever package is deemed useful in acquiring another player, whether its this different point guard or filling out another need like additional outside shooting....or a banger inside...

    Originally posted by foretaz
    that said...new jersey can give kidd to us for just about any combination they would like from tinsley/aj, pollard, bender/croshere....though i think theres a snowball's chance in hell of that happening....so i look for an upgrade in the backup point guard...
    First of all... to the board and secondly I completely aggree with above statements. I'm not so sure we need a shooting PG though.

    Regards,

    Mourning
    2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

    2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

    2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Looking ahead part 1......

      Originally posted by Doug in CT
      Instead of trading Tins, can we just fire David Craig? Our medical staff just seems so incompetent in dealing with injuries... and perhaps more conditioning in the off season would prevent some as well. I am not a doctor, do not play one on TV... but something reeks.

      LOL, you are not serious, are ya?
      ANDY: I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy winning or get busy losing.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Looking ahead part 1......

        Good point guards and centers are two of the most difficult posistions to fill in the NBA. You have a handful of each that excel at their position in the NBA, and because of that, they demand very large salaries.

        I am concerned about JT's durability as well, and although I love Johnson as a backup, the team definitely does not run as well on offense when he is running the point.

        Here is a thought...why not try to draft someone for this position. It is a gamble, and it is unlikely that we will see an immediate impact, but maybe we can start grooming a guy that can eventually compete for the top spot. If Tin gets injured, which has been par for the course, then the rookie could develop quite a bit in his first year.

        Like many of you, I am impatient for a championship, but with the salary cap, it is very tough to solve one problem with a trade without creating another one. I would entertain trading Tins for somebody who fits the bill noted in Peck's comments, but like him, I can't really think of anyone who would at this point. Maybe that would help me see the light, or in this case, the dark
        When you're playing against a stacked deck, compete even harder. Show the world how much you'll fight for the winners circle. If you do, someday the cellophane will crackle off a fresh pack, one that belongs to you, and the cards will be stacked in your favor.
        -Pat Riley

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        • #19
          Re: Looking ahead part 1......

          Don't buy the idea that Tins should be traded is a minority view. The dark sider's are hiding their numbers in shadows. But seriously I have yet to see a post that has said keep Tins and we'll win seventy games.

          I am not opposed to trading Tins although realistically I can't think of a trade that upgrades us at PG that isn't a young point guard who won't have to develop. I think there might be a better answer, though, have a swingman who can run/start the offense so that we aren't as dependent on Tins. We have one in Ron and any large trade we make should include one.

          Reggie was mariginal only when he stopped looking for his shot--meaning he could dump the ball into JO. SJax...well, this is the part of his game that I dislike most.
          "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

          "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Looking ahead part 1......

            Peck, as always you have given us all a lot to think about. But first I have to ask, is Jay on vacation, and for how long.

            One player I'd like to see the Pacers go after is Antonio Daniels to replace Tinsley. Daniels is not a pure point guard, but he has played on some pretty good teams and he plays well in big games. He was a huge favorite of Duncan and that is good enough to me. I think he's ready to be a starting point guard on a very good team. His defense is good and he can create his own shot, of course he is not ahe natural point. But what good does it do if your natural point guard is injured all the time.

            As you know I've been all over the map on Tinsley, and quite frankly I don't know where I am right now. I still don't like his defense, I still don't like how he mentally gets taken out of games and I still don't like how his shooting is not very good. Keep in mind yes his % was better this season, but teams just let him shoot wide-open jumpers they don't even attempt to challenge his shots.

            Having said all this if I thought he could stay healthy, I could live with his weaknesses and would welcome him being the Pacers starting point guard.



            Any team that is expecting to challenge for a championship needs either a point or shooting guard who can create offense at will. Look at the final 4 teams, they all have at least one backcourt player who can. I don't think the Pacers have a player who can. Tinsley is close, but he can be taken out.

            The Heat has Wade
            Suns have Nash
            Spurs have Parker and Ginobbli
            Pistons have Billups.

            All of those guys don't have to depend on the "offensive system" to get shots. Deep in the playoffs, the "offensive system" becomes less and less effective. You need a guy or two who can take the ball and say the hell with the offenisive system, get out of my way, I'm going to create an easy for myself a teammate or I'm going to get fouled.

            Artest is the only player the Pacers have who can do that, but really that is not always the best thing for the team. Jackson can do it at times, but if you notice teams started running a second defender at him as soon as he put the ball on the floor and a lot of turnovers were caused because of it.

            Not sure where I'm going with all this.

            let me end by saying I would like to see what the combo of Artest, Jackson, and J.O can do. If and it is a big if, if they can work together as a team that could be as good a threesome as any in the league. It would rival TD, MG, and Parker for the Spurs, or the Suns threesome.

            With Jax and Artest playing the 2 and 3 , every night there will be one mismatch in the Pacers favor on the offensive end, but best of all, on the defensive end, there will never be a mismatch. The Ron and Jax combo can cover any of the other 2 and 3's. (keep in mind a great player is a great player and there will be times when a great player is able to get off on Ron or Jax. But there won't be any mismatches.

            The rebounding should be excellent also, for once in about 18 years the Pacers backcourt won't be outrebounded.

            I'm done for now.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Looking ahead part 1......

              I'd love to trade Tinsley for one of the top PG's in this draft, but only as a last resort.

              I think we really should look into Jason Kidd. His contract is one hell of a risk, but we aren't exactly anywhere near the salary cap. Jason is a great rebounder and defender at his position, and with Kidd, Jackson, and Artest, our 1-3 defense would be scary.

              Well, that's assuming we get to keep Ron. I think he would have to be involved in a Kidd trade, though.
              You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Looking ahead part 1......

                Good post, Peck. Well thought out. As for which camp I fall into, I think I ride the fence between the last two. One thing that leapt out at me was this:

                Originally posted by Peck
                You can be the best basketball player to ever play the game & if you can't play half the season then you really are not doing your team any good. There can never be a flow developed & every time you do get a groove going on, poof your gone again.
                This was written by the same person who said this:

                Originally posted by Peck
                It's called a standard. If you have a standard you are using to judge something then it has to be used to judge other things as well, even if they are not judged the same.
                I certainly don't want this to digress into another debate on the subject, but I simply couldn't overlook it.


                As for Tinsley, I really don't know how I feel about trading him. Even when he's healthy and playing like a top-5 PG, like Ron and his emotional issues, I keep waiting for the wheels to fall off. But the same goes for JO. As for AJ, say what you will about him, but the guy is durable. It's frustrating as hell to watch him bring the ball up court and ball movement does stagnate somewhat when he's in, but he's also one of the more steadfast and reliable guys on the team. And that's something this team sorely lacks. Guys you can count on.



                foretaz, welcome to the board, but may I make a suggestion? I know the bold purple type represents a symbol of your individuality and your belief in personal freedom, but it is damn difficult to read. From what I can tell, you have a lot to bring to a discussion, but I can't get through your posts. Black type on a white page is the norm for a reason. It's easiest on the eyes. I'm only saying this because I want to read your posts without going half blind trying to do so.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Looking ahead part 1......

                  Originally posted by Harmonica
                  foretaz, welcome to the board, but may I make a suggestion? I know the bold purple type represents a symbol of your individuality and your belief in personal freedom, but it is damn difficult to read. From what I can tell, you have a lot to bring to a discussion, but I can't get through your posts. Black type on a white page is the norm for a reason. It's easiest on the eyes. I'm only saying this because I want to read your posts without going half blind trying to do so.

                  I agree, I simply can't read it.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Looking ahead part 1......

                    I can read it, but it DOES take extra effort and is a little irritating, which is really a pitty because I really DO like his posts so far .
                    2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                    2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                    2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Looking ahead part 1......

                      As always Peck with the great post, I cant wait to read the other parts of this thread. I dont agree with trading Jamaal but I agree with some of your points about him. I really want to read your posts about PF,SF and SG cause I want to see what you think about Ron,JO and Jack.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Looking ahead part 1......

                        I really am not interested in Jason Kidd. I think there is a major factor that's going to come into play with all of this. Right now, we have a potentially volatile team. I think it is going to made perfectly clear, to four players I can think of, that any kind of nonsense isn't going to be tolerated by Larry, Donnie or Carlisle. This is going to be a serious issue and will play into whatever we do.
                        The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Looking ahead part 1......

                          I am not going into great detail but if people are looking for eutopia and the perfect player(s), lots of luck. Every player has one or more flaws and some can be improved, some can't but it take time to correct or trade.

                          As for Tinsley, who are you going to get to replace him that is as good or better and is available, with available being the key word.

                          I am sure the same type of analysis is going to happen for all the players and that is great but try to be realistic about your desires.

                          Peck, it seems like I am picking on you and believe me that is not the case. This answer is NOT directed at you specifically but more towards those who want change for the sake of change.

                          Championships are not won with constant change but gentle tweaking and molding of the core product. The Pacers have a very good core and some very good role players. With minor changes and a little better luck with injuries, they have championship possibilities.

                          For those who live on or in the darkside, step outside every once in a while and enjoy the real world. There is an area between and that is called reality, which is pretty nice.


                          I would rather be the hammer than the nail

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Looking ahead part 1......

                            Originally posted by Alabama-Redneck
                            I am not going into great detail but if people are looking for eutopia and the perfect player(s), lots of luck. Every player has one or more flaws and some can be improved, some can't but it take time to correct or trade.

                            As for Tinsley, who are you going to get to replace him that is as good or better and is available, with available being the key word.

                            I am sure the same type of analysis is going to happen for all the players and that is great but try to be realistic about your desires.

                            Peck, it seems like I am picking on you and believe me that is not the case. This answer is NOT directed at you specifically but more towards those who want change for the sake of change.

                            Championships are not won with constant change but gentle tweaking and molding of the core product. The Pacers have a very good core and some very good role players. With minor changes and a little better luck with injuries, they have championship possibilities.

                            For those who live on or in the darkside, step outside every once in a while and enjoy the real world. There is an area between and that is called reality, which is pretty nice.


                            Good post!
                            2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                            2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                            2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Looking ahead part 1......

                              If we should trade Jamaal or not is irrelevant, because Larry's not going to do it.

                              From my vantage point, there's one thing Larry and Rick disagree about vehemently, and it's Jamaal Tinsley. But this isn't new. Back in the day, everyone knew Jax was Bird's guy and Best was Carlisle's. Maybe it goes back to what kind of players they were. Bird was the superstar, he wants a point who can get the ball to the right guy in the right place at the right time. Rick was a role-playing guard who could shoot and defend, so he thinks that's what every guard's duty should be.

                              Rick's always gonna want a Billups-type scorer. But with 3 big-time scorers in the starting lineup, you need a set-up man, and you're not going to find any better than Tinsley. Bird is on the record that Jamaal is All-Star material, and with Bird's history he's willing to give guy's a break where injuries are concerned.

                              Or, to put it another way, if Larry hasn't given up on Bender due to injuries, he sure as hell isn't going to do so with Tinsley.
                              Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Looking ahead part 1......

                                Originally posted by Alabama-Redneck
                                I am not going into great detail but if people are looking for eutopia and the perfect player(s), lots of luck. Every player has one or more flaws and some can be improved, some can't but it take time to correct or trade.

                                As for Tinsley, who are you going to get to replace him that is as good or better and is available, with available being the key word.

                                I am sure the same type of analysis is going to happen for all the players and that is great but try to be realistic about your desires.

                                Peck, it seems like I am picking on you and believe me that is not the case. This answer is NOT directed at you specifically but more towards those who want change for the sake of change.

                                Championships are not won with constant change but gentle tweaking and molding of the core product. The Pacers have a very good core and some very good role players. With minor changes and a little better luck with injuries, they have championship possibilities.

                                For those who live on or in the darkside, step outside every once in a while and enjoy the real world. There is an area between and that is called reality, which is pretty nice.


                                I'm not trying to be coy here but IMO, but when Jamaal rides the pine for over half of the season, then Jamison Brewer would be more valuable.

                                Look, btw this is to Bulletproof not you Bama, throw the Brad Miller thing at me all you want. Right now I don't care, I'm sick of always having the same players year after year after year have some damn injury. If Brad were here this season & he was injured as much as J.O. & Jamaal have been I would be willing to get rid of him as well.

                                See if this rings a bell to anybody. If only Jermaine & Jamaal were healthy we would have beat the Pistons. Funny thing is that was said last year after game 6 & we are going ahead & saying it again this year.

                                Maybe Doug is right, maybe Craig & his staff have overstayed thier welcome I don't know. But it just seems to me that for four years now that Jamaal, Jon, Jermaine & I'll go ahead & throw Brad in there as well for B.P.'s sake always seem to have some nagging injury that always forces us to say "wait till next year & you will see"...

                                I've already said I love Jamaal but replacing the 3rd string p.g. may help during the regular season but will do squat for the playoffs & that is when these guys always come up lame.

                                Just my opinion that's all.


                                Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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