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Thread: Looking ahead part 1......

  1. #26
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    I really am not interested in Jason Kidd. I think there is a major factor that's going to come into play with all of this. Right now, we have a potentially volatile team. I think it is going to made perfectly clear, to four players I can think of, that any kind of nonsense isn't going to be tolerated by Larry, Donnie or Carlisle. This is going to be a serious issue and will play into whatever we do.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    I am not going into great detail but if people are looking for eutopia and the perfect player(s), lots of luck. Every player has one or more flaws and some can be improved, some can't but it take time to correct or trade.

    As for Tinsley, who are you going to get to replace him that is as good or better and is available, with available being the key word.

    I am sure the same type of analysis is going to happen for all the players and that is great but try to be realistic about your desires.

    Peck, it seems like I am picking on you and believe me that is not the case. This answer is NOT directed at you specifically but more towards those who want change for the sake of change.

    Championships are not won with constant change but gentle tweaking and molding of the core product. The Pacers have a very good core and some very good role players. With minor changes and a little better luck with injuries, they have championship possibilities.

    For those who live on or in the darkside, step outside every once in a while and enjoy the real world. There is an area between and that is called reality, which is pretty nice.


    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

  3. #28
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama-Redneck
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    I am not going into great detail but if people are looking for eutopia and the perfect player(s), lots of luck. Every player has one or more flaws and some can be improved, some can't but it take time to correct or trade.

    As for Tinsley, who are you going to get to replace him that is as good or better and is available, with available being the key word.

    I am sure the same type of analysis is going to happen for all the players and that is great but try to be realistic about your desires.

    Peck, it seems like I am picking on you and believe me that is not the case. This answer is NOT directed at you specifically but more towards those who want change for the sake of change.

    Championships are not won with constant change but gentle tweaking and molding of the core product. The Pacers have a very good core and some very good role players. With minor changes and a little better luck with injuries, they have championship possibilities.

    For those who live on or in the darkside, step outside every once in a while and enjoy the real world. There is an area between and that is called reality, which is pretty nice.


    Good post!
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  4. #29
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    If we should trade Jamaal or not is irrelevant, because Larry's not going to do it.

    From my vantage point, there's one thing Larry and Rick disagree about vehemently, and it's Jamaal Tinsley. But this isn't new. Back in the day, everyone knew Jax was Bird's guy and Best was Carlisle's. Maybe it goes back to what kind of players they were. Bird was the superstar, he wants a point who can get the ball to the right guy in the right place at the right time. Rick was a role-playing guard who could shoot and defend, so he thinks that's what every guard's duty should be.

    Rick's always gonna want a Billups-type scorer. But with 3 big-time scorers in the starting lineup, you need a set-up man, and you're not going to find any better than Tinsley. Bird is on the record that Jamaal is All-Star material, and with Bird's history he's willing to give guy's a break where injuries are concerned.

    Or, to put it another way, if Larry hasn't given up on Bender due to injuries, he sure as hell isn't going to do so with Tinsley.
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  5. #30
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama-Redneck
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    I am not going into great detail but if people are looking for eutopia and the perfect player(s), lots of luck. Every player has one or more flaws and some can be improved, some can't but it take time to correct or trade.

    As for Tinsley, who are you going to get to replace him that is as good or better and is available, with available being the key word.

    I am sure the same type of analysis is going to happen for all the players and that is great but try to be realistic about your desires.

    Peck, it seems like I am picking on you and believe me that is not the case. This answer is NOT directed at you specifically but more towards those who want change for the sake of change.

    Championships are not won with constant change but gentle tweaking and molding of the core product. The Pacers have a very good core and some very good role players. With minor changes and a little better luck with injuries, they have championship possibilities.

    For those who live on or in the darkside, step outside every once in a while and enjoy the real world. There is an area between and that is called reality, which is pretty nice.


    I'm not trying to be coy here but IMO, but when Jamaal rides the pine for over half of the season, then Jamison Brewer would be more valuable.

    Look, btw this is to Bulletproof not you Bama, throw the Brad Miller thing at me all you want. Right now I don't care, I'm sick of always having the same players year after year after year have some damn injury. If Brad were here this season & he was injured as much as J.O. & Jamaal have been I would be willing to get rid of him as well.

    See if this rings a bell to anybody. If only Jermaine & Jamaal were healthy we would have beat the Pistons. Funny thing is that was said last year after game 6 & we are going ahead & saying it again this year.

    Maybe Doug is right, maybe Craig & his staff have overstayed thier welcome I don't know. But it just seems to me that for four years now that Jamaal, Jon, Jermaine & I'll go ahead & throw Brad in there as well for B.P.'s sake always seem to have some nagging injury that always forces us to say "wait till next year & you will see"...

    I've already said I love Jamaal but replacing the 3rd string p.g. may help during the regular season but will do squat for the playoffs & that is when these guys always come up lame.

    Just my opinion that's all.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  6. #31
    Member Doug in CO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Yes, as Peck can tell, I was serious about D. Craig and staff.

    Something just does not seem right about how our players are always hurt and especially susceptible to injuries.
    Heywoode says... work hard man.

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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    I want Tinsley and the rest of our main guys back. I don't want ANY major trades.

    I don't see any "no brainer" trades on the horizon. Any trade we'd be capable of making would just get back a player with different weaknesses.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

  8. #33
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    the Bulls 72 win season is in jeopardy. Championship rings are already being sized up & it's just a formality to go through the season.

    That is the extreme I know, but I think you would be suprised at how many of our fellow posters actually beleive this.
    You'd be surprised how many Warriors, Magic, Rockets, Lakers and Cavs fans think the same thing....

    hope springs eternal in the offseason.....

    I remember back in the summer of 1993 I was so sure we were going to win 50 games.

    We went 20-62.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  9. #34
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I'm not trying to be coy here but IMO, but when Jamaal rides the pine for over half of the season, then Jamison Brewer would be more valuable.

    Look, btw this is to Bulletproof not you Bama, throw the Brad Miller thing at me all you want. Right now I don't care, I'm sick of always having the same players year after year after year have some damn injury. If Brad were here this season & he was injured as much as J.O. & Jamaal have been I would be willing to get rid of him as well.

    See if this rings a bell to anybody. If only Jermaine & Jamaal were healthy we would have beat the Pistons. Funny thing is that was said last year after game 6 & we are going ahead & saying it again this year.

    Maybe Doug is right, maybe Craig & his staff have overstayed thier welcome I don't know. But it just seems to me that for four years now that Jamaal, Jon, Jermaine & I'll go ahead & throw Brad in there as well for B.P.'s sake always seem to have some nagging injury that always forces us to say "wait till next year & you will see"...

    I've already said I love Jamaal but replacing the 3rd string p.g. may help during the regular season but will do squat for the playoffs & that is when these guys always come up lame.

    Just my opinion that's all.

    We can play the "what if" game all day (and really it is quite fun) and never resolve anything but remember the past is nothing but history that can not be changed and does not predict the future.

    The future will be what is and hopefully the injury pendulum will start heading in our direction for awhile. I do not believe in the "injury prone" therory if athletics are in good physical shape.

    We can get rid of our "injury" problems and not have to worry about "anyone" being hurt for the playoffs as we will probably not be in the playoffs.

    It may not be a problem next year as the lockout looks like more of a possibility.

    Oh, by the way, I do want and respect your opinion. Since I am retired, I get tired of "debating" with my wife all the time.

    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    You'd be surprised how many Warriors, Magic, Rockets, Lakers and Cavs fans think the same thing....

    hope springs eternal in the offseason.....
    I am quoting from Shawshank Redemption -

    "Remember, Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

    "Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free."


    But then from the same movie

    "Hope is a dangerous thing. Hope can drive a man insane."

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama-Redneck
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    I am not going into great detail but if people are looking for eutopia and the perfect player(s), lots of luck. Every player has one or more flaws and some can be improved, some can't but it take time to correct or trade.

    As for Tinsley, who are you going to get to replace him that is as good or better and is available, with available being the key word.

    I am sure the same type of analysis is going to happen for all the players and that is great but try to be realistic about your desires.

    Peck, it seems like I am picking on you and believe me that is not the case. This answer is NOT directed at you specifically but more towards those who want change for the sake of change.

    Championships are not won with constant change but gentle tweaking and molding of the core product. The Pacers have a very good core and some very good role players. With minor changes and a little better luck with injuries, they have championship possibilities.

    For those who live on or in the darkside, step outside every once in a while and enjoy the real world. There is an area between and that is called reality, which is pretty nice.



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  12. #37
    Member Alabama-Redneck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    WIth all due respect Alabama-Redneck,

    I completely disagree with your comment on injuries. I was running close to 70 miles a week, working out every day, and I had 4 season ending injuries in a row.

    I do think conditioning helps alot, but as i came to find out (one I was overworked a lot) but I was injury prone.

    I think the same can be said for guys who are on the college and professional level, regardless of how "in shape" they are
    Training and training, the right way, for the sport you participate in could be two totally different things.

    I do not know what sport(s) you participated in but running 70 miles a week will help your cardio system but if you are a swimmer it may not help your performance.

    A persons body is designed to do certain things and putting extreme stress on it will cause it to breakdown regardless of how good of shape you are in while participating.

    I have also found proper stretching is very important.

    I guess I am rambling but I have never had any doctor talk about people being injury prone.

    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    You'd be surprised how many Warriors, Magic, Rockets, Lakers and Cavs fans think the same thing....

    hope springs eternal in the offseason.....

    I remember back in the summer of 1993 I was so sure we were going to win 50 games.

    We went 20-62.
    Reminds me of the 2000 off season. I thought we could go back to the Finals.

    This was just before I discovered IS. Reading everyone for all this time has changed my outlook JUST a little bit.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug in CT
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    Yes, as Peck can tell, I was serious about D. Craig and staff.

    Something just does not seem right about how our players are always hurt and especially susceptible to injuries.
    It's not David Craig unless it's something he's started in the last 2 or 3 years. I remember when this team seemed to come down with injuries all the time. Stepanovich (Sp?), Kellogg, etc. Then for a long time we were basically injury free and I attributed it to Craig. Now we are having injuries again. A change in training, or just the breaks?

    Another thought, I would like to see a study on attitude and injuries. Do whiners get injured more than normal? I have no idea but I guess it could be argued that whiners don't handle stress as well as normal, so they could be more susceptible. If true since we have more whiners than usual (JO, Tins, Jack), we would be more susceptable to injuries.

    I would like to write more, but I have to go I'm going to see the new Star Wars movie!

  15. #40
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    I disagree with whoever said history is not a place to look to predict the future. History is an excellent place to look if you are trying to predict the future.

    He who ignores history is condemned to repeat it...

    -Bball
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug in CT
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    Yes, as Peck can tell, I was serious about D. Craig and staff.

    Something just does not seem right about how our players are always hurt and especially susceptible to injuries.
    Uh, did you think that maybe our players are just extremely injury prone?

    To stay that our trainer, whom has been here forever, all the sudden is no good, is an easy way out of admitting that the players we have are extremely injury prone.

    Brad is still injured in Sac, is David Craig his trainer now?

    David Craig has been one of the best in the business for a long time. To say that a trainer that has been part of this franchise forever all the sudden sucks is a bogus way of denying that we have injury prone players. Our 90's teams never had much of this.

  17. #42
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    I disagree with whoever said history is not a place to look to predict the future. History is an excellent place to look if you are trying to predict the future.

    He who ignores history is condemned to repeat it...

    -Bball
    Speaking of which... I remember an article piece posted here several months ago concerning the Phoenix Suns medical and training staff and their methods in preventing, and when occuring dealing with, injuries which I found quite interesting to say the least. Quite some revolutionairy stuff beying used back there in Arizona and seeying they have something like the smallest amounts of injuries in the league (or close to it) we might take a serious look at it. Research moves on everywhere and this area is just the same in that way. Maybe someone remembers that article aswell and could dig it up as I couldn't find it myself.

    Regards,

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  18. #43
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    Uh, did you think that maybe our players are just extremely injury prone?

    To stay that our trainer, whom has been here forever, all the sudden is no good, is an easy way out of admitting that the players we have are extremely injury prone.

    Brad is still injured in Sac, is David Craig his trainer now?

    David Craig has been one of the best in the business for a long time. To say that a trainer that has been part of this franchise forever all the sudden sucks is a bogus way of denying that we have injury prone players. Our 90's teams never had much of this.
    Actually... the fact that David Craig has been here forever could very well be a factor to the negative side. Who knows? Has he kept up with modern technicques and equipment? Does he still dedicate the same time to things or does he delegate?

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  19. #44
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Actually... the fact that David Craig has been here forever could very well be a factor to the negative side. Who knows? Has he kept up with modern technicques and equipment? Does he still dedicate the same time to things or does he delegate?

    -Bball


    It's a possibility I guess, but the possibility that we just have highly injury prone players is a far more likely one.

  20. #45

    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Great thread:

    I think this season was a fluke as far as pro-sports go. The injuries happen to everyone, DD had the same injury as JO a few years back and is the only major injury he has had in his career. Ankle/foot injuries are the most common in the NBA and JT is a victim of that. I don't think he is injury prone just an innocent victim of the bug this year. He looked bad against Detroit because he was out of playing shape, you don't miss 3 months and come back in sync.(Think of Z. Ilgaukas(sp) he stayed healthy this year)

    Jax needed help on the perimeter and when Reggie was on, it opened things up inside. Moving Jax to the 2 and RA at the 3 will gives us 2 guys that can hit from outside.

    So what do we do this summer.

    JO just needs to get healthy his injuries the last 2 years were just bad luck.

    JT needs to be healthy he was out of sync and not in shape Billups made him look bad because Billups is a great player (hated saying that). Freddie should have been guarding Billups he was eating JT up the last 3 games

    RA who knows about this guy, he thinks for himself. Top 10 player when he wants to be. I would take my chances one more time unless I could get a great player in return.

    Croshere is untradable because of his contract, he makes about 8-9 m each of the next 2 so he will be here next year unless Bird finds away to package him with RA for a big contract.

    DD sign him for defense and rebounding.

    AJ looked very good at times when JT was out and has a very reasonable contract in NBA standards, superb backup. Knows his teammates now.

    Freddie & James J. looked really well at times. Gill is about as good a 3rd PG for the money. I would keep him. This is the first full season he's played for anyone. He will get better.

    Fosters not going anywhere he's solid and a bargain for his contract, Pollard is in the last year of his contract and is trade bait. He will be the first player gone IMHO.

    One thing for sure, I trust Donnie and Larry and they know the inner workings away from the court, who they should keep etc.

    If I see a trade it will involve Pollard and ? (6m+? a year) for a center. DD can do what Pollard does and more.

    There are 3 solid PG in the draft. Chris Paul,Deron Williams and Jarret Jack. If I traded JT or AJ you'd have to look at one of these guys if available. I like JT and don't see him leaving. Bird said before the season that JT was the Pacers next all star. Are you ready to turn the team over to a Rookie and AJ

    I don't think you break this team up because of what happened this year.

    We can get much better by getting everyone back healthy. We need a center that can guard Shaq. I know thats comical because it seems no one can guard him. I think some on here are worried more about Detroit then Miami. We have to prepare to be competitive against both teams. In the other thread someone said this team was built for the regular season. I disagree because we haven't had our team together yet in the post season.

    Who do you trade for ?, I think we will get a pretty good player in the draft and I hope he's from Louisville.
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  21. #46
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    BTW, this is one thing I should have added in my first post on this but forgot.

    One of the biggest complaints I have with the stand pat people, in general, is that they very seldom take into consideration other teams making significant moves to get better.

    I'll just give you one small off the wall scenario & in fact it may not be that off of the wall. Next season let's say that Michael Redd signs with the Cavs. & Phil Jackson comes on board to coach. Does anybody here still think that our best three (Artest, Jackson & O'neal) is significantly better than thier best three (James, Redd & Gooden)?

    Even if you do, don't you at least think that this puts the Cavs. a lot closer to us than they already are?

    The Bulls scare the crap out of me. IMO, even if they stand pat they may be better than we are right now.

    I understand people's thoughts about not making change for the sake of change, but I just don't agree. Sometimes a fresh perspective is needed & sometimes a change just for the sake of it is helpfull.


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  22. #47
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Which is why I can't understand people thinking we could challenge the Bulls 71 win season. Miami couldn't do it with Shaq, Detroit hasn't done it, Phoenix didn't do it and San Antonio hasn't. We aren't any better than those teams.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  23. #48

    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    I would not be against trading anyone on the team. I'm also not against bringing everyone back and seeing what we have.

    It seems everyone has somewhat of a love / hate relationship with Jamal. He is exactly what this team needs (as constructed) when he is healthy and under control. Our offense is so fragile that he is IMO our most important player. Scary thought when he only plays "the right way" for 1/3 a season.

    My main concern is that trading Jamal would also require other moves - I don't see a better playmaker available and that is what our offence (as constructed) needs. Lets say you trade Jamal for a Jason Terry - shoot first - type guard. There is know way Terry, Jackson, Artest, and JO can coexist. Again I'm not against making moves but it is hard to grasp with so many unknowns. Now I could live with Terry, Jackson, Posey, and Oneal.

    I guess I think moving Tinsley means you have to move Artest. Or I suppose Jackson but I'm more inclined to keep him than almost anyone else. Moving Oneal is a seperate issue - regardless of what moves you make we need at least 1 post player that will demand the ball.

    Which lineup is better (or more suited for Detroit): Tinsley, Jax, Artest, and Oneal or Antonio Daniels, Jax, Odom, and Oneal. I assume either Dale, Jeff, or possibly Harrison at the 5 (take your pick). With Carlisle's offensive and defensive schemes, I think I like the latter.

    The short version: If we trade Jamal we must make other moves. Not that thats a bad thing.

  24. #49

    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    One of the biggest complaints I have with the stand pat people, in general, is that they very seldom take into consideration other teams making significant moves to get better.

    Next season let's say that Michael Redd signs with the Cavs. & Phil Jackson comes on board to coach. Does anybody here still think that our best three (Artest, Jackson & O'neal) is significantly better than thier best three (James, Redd & Gooden)?

    Even if you do, don't you at least think that this puts the Cavs. a lot closer to us than they already are?

    The Bulls scare the crap out of me. IMO, even if they stand pat they may be better than we are right now.

    I understand people's thoughts about not making change for the sake of change, but I just don't agree. Sometimes a fresh perspective is needed & sometimes a change just for the sake of it is helpfull.
    I know my post sounded like a stand pat! Which it wasn't. I believe we can get a good player in the draft and I believe Artest will be around for the whole year. I am not against making a trade we need to improve the Center position which is our weakness IMHO: Croshere,Pollard,JO,DD and Foster are all power forwards. We need a true Center!

    Another thought Croshere needs to quit shooting the 3, he was a better shooter the first 3-4 yrs in the league. Maybe we can get the knicks to take him they love big contracts.
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by aceace
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    I know my post sounded like a stand pat! Which it wasn't. I believe we can get a good player in the draft and I believe Artest will be around for the whole year. I am not against making a trade we need to improve the Center position which is our weakness IMHO: Croshere,Pollard,JO,DD and Foster are all power forwards. We need a true Center!

    Another thought Croshere needs to quit shooting the 3, he was a better shooter the first 3-4 yrs in the league. Maybe we can get the knicks to take him they love big contracts.
    Sorry bout that BB/SG, we both posted close to the same time. My comment wasn't meant to be about your post. It just looked that way.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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