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Thread: Looking ahead part 1......

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Looking ahead part 1......

    I'm going to try & do this position by position.

    But first I will go ahead & just give an overall view of where I think the team is & where it is going.

    Well we might as well talk about the big pink elephant in the room to begin with.

    Let's just go ahead & get this out of the way right up front. There is a fairly large portion of posters on here who will share this thought.

    Next year with Ron Ron the poser on the team (a referance to his supposed posing for the Detroit bus btw) we will be on a single solitary mission. A mission to stamp out evil & as I've already read one poster write, the Bulls 72 win season is in jeopardy. Championship rings are already being sized up & it's just a formality to go through the season.

    That is the extreme I know, but I think you would be suprised at how many of our fellow posters actually beleive this.

    Then there are those on here who beleive that the lineup, as it stands, is certainly a title contender & they feel very good just standing pat & going into the season with the same exact players because they want to give them a chance.

    Quite a few of our fellow posters will fall into this catagory.

    Then there is the dark side. There are those who believe that Ron Artest used up his "let's give Ron another chance" card last season when he refused to board the team plane to come home & virtually ended game 6 last season single handidly. They also beleive that there are fundamental flaws on this team that has to be addressed over the summer & that if things remain the same all we will have is another good regular season followed by playoffs where we will have happy sunshiny people saying "well they're still young, we've got to give them a chance to grow together".

    Very few will walk on the dark path but those that do will feel confidence in thier opinion & will be heckeled by the masses. It will be up to the dark side to make certain that things stay civil this summer. Because much like when Piston & Pacer fans mix at the fieldhouse these opposite sides do not blend well together.

    Jay, a well known hater, made a post in the regular season & it is more appopriate now than ever. http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/s...regular+season

    There is a lot to both agree & disagree with in that thread, depending on your point of view.

    Are there other points of view? Sure, but I think the above three cover the vast majority of posters on here.

    Now where do I fall? Well let's just say that I have issues with the team as it is composed.

    I just want to point out one indisputable fact. With a healthy Ron Artest & an injured Jermaine O'Neal & Jamaal Tinsely the Indiana Pacers took the Detroit Pistons to 6 games & lost. Without Ron Artest at all & an injured Jermaine O'Neal & Jamaal Tinsley the Indiana Pacers took the Detroit Pistons to 6 games & lost.

    I see no differance other than now we will be doing it without Reggie Miller. Of course if you are gonna say all three are going to be healthy then that is another story, however all three being healthy is another story & it is something I will cover in depth later.

    I also sincely believe there are teams in the East that are not only catching up to us right now I think we may be at the point where Chicago has passed us (depending on Curry's health). The N.B.A. will always be more than happy to have the LaBron dynasty form & if Redd goes there this summer... But Washington is getting close, Orlando will improve & needless to say both Detroit & Miami are ahead of us as we speak. If Shaq doesn't win it this year don't think for a min. that Miami won't go all out to get another player to help him get one.

    Needless to say I am NOT one of the ones who beleive a return of Ron Artest will automatically assure a title. But I will deal with Ron in another post about the small forwards.

    Today is a day to look at our point guard spot.

    As it stands we have Jamaal Tinsley as our starter, Anthony Johnson as the first reserve, Eddie Gill as the third string & Fred Jones who can do emergency work at the spot.

    Jamaal Tinsley. I made a post very early in the year & I know I also said it at the forum gathering. I said that I thought Jamaal (at that time) was the best p.g. in the entire N.B.A. Well obviousley Steve Nash took that mantle over & never gave it back but for awhile I thought J.T. was as good as any pg in the NBA. I still stand by that. He, almost by himself, made it possible so that when we were so short handed we were still competative.

    He is almost the ideal p.g. for my way of thinking. He is a great dribbler, defenses don't even bother to try & trap him, he is a great creator, he is a good passer, he can penatrate, he can score in the lane & I think he has become a good defender (gambles a little to much but in his case sometimes it pays off big).

    He is everything I ever wanted in a point guard & I have been a big fan of his since his rookie season. That is why it is all the more difficult to say the following.

    I think the Pacers need to trade Jamaal Tinsley.

    I don't know if it's just the Bender backlash or the season backlash or whatever. But I'm just tired of certain players never playing the game. Yes, yes I know he was hurt. Had that mysterious ligiment pain & all. Great, but what people forget & it seems to be a time that all have forgotten is that Jamaal injured his foot in either his first or second game back from not playing because he was sick & hadn't played for like 4 games. But on top of that earlier in the year he was not playing because of a pull, strain or something.

    You can be the best basketball player to ever play the game & if you can't play half the season then you really are not doing your team any good. There can never be a flow developed & every time you do get a groove going on, poof your gone again.

    Now we hear he reinjured the foot in the semi-finals. It's just not going to end with him. He played 80 games as a rookie and has proceded to play less games every year since.

    Now I'll be honest I wasn't thrilled with his morphing into Ivereson this season but I understand we were desperate for offense so I can live with it. But I just can't go through another season knowing that we are one game away from having to lose Jamaal for 3-4 weeks at a time for whatever reason. At this point I don't even care if his injury's are legit or not (BTW I do believe they are legit) it's just time to fill this team again with players who are durable even if they are slightly less talented.

    Anthony Johnson. Started out the season sucking. Ended the season as the suprise point guard who actually deserved to start. I still say A.J. is one of the best backup p.g.'s in the entire NBA.

    Oh he has weaknesses, no doubt. But they are minute & in fact he works very hard to minimize his weaknesses. He still is a weak dribbler for a p.g. but what can you do? However he is above average as a defender & is really quite a capable scorer & is not afraid to go into the trees.

    He is nowhere near the creator that Jamaal is but he is a lunchpail kind of player & I mean that as a compliment. He is also something the Pacers really lack. A solid vet. who is a leader.

    I have zero problem with the Pacers keeping him. I do believe his contract is a little large for what he is, but when he was starting at the end of the season & almost avg. a double double I think he earned a huge chunk of that money.

    Eddie Gill. In the long tradition of Ollie, Strickland, Brewer, etc. who come to the team & do emergency work as the third guard. As long as he accepts that this is what he is I can't see any real harm in keeping him.

    Ok, that doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement & it's not. But for a third string p.g. I think he's fine. He can penatrate & he can shoot fairly well. His defense is solid for his size but his ball handling is..... well... atrocious.

    He is good for spot min. & seems to be a good team guy. So, for what he is, I say we should just keep him.

    Now since I'm advocating trading Jamaal what do I think would be better? Well, honestly I don't know. A healthy Jamaal would be my answer, but I no longer have faith that that will happen.

    To me Jamaal is one of the few real tradeable players we have on this team. He is signed long term & his contract is very reasonable.

    I guess I would be willing to explore Uncle Bucks dream of a shooting point guard. God knows that that is repulsive to me on the surface, however it cannot be denied that it has worked for Detroit for a few seasons now.

    Ok, fire away at me fellas. Let the venom flow in my direction because since jay is now on vacation it is up to Bball & myself to rep our peeps & show our colors of darkness because as you all know, we ride together!!!!!


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Member skyfire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    JT's contract has a poison pill clause in addition to being base year doesn't it?

    As you said JT when healthy is the perfect PG for the Pacers. I think his injuries are concerning but I think upgrading the 3rd PG position as an insurance policy is a better play than trading him. I agree that when he is healthy he is a top 5 PG, and a top 3 pass-first PG.

    His contract is almost as close to untradable as you can get. If the Pacers can manage his injury better, then we can have the best of both worlds. Obviously if he is playing backup PG instead of 3rd PG Eddie Gill just cant cut it, with Tins' injury concerns I think 3rd PG is the proper place to upgrade. AJ is one of the better backup PG in the NBA, but his skills aren't always what the Pacers need. As someone in another thread said, the Pacers need their Arroyo, someone who can run the offense almost as fluidly as Tins and create for their teammates.

    I think a european player is the way to go here, Sarunas Jasikevicious would be a fantasic pickup. If we could get DD to take vets min for 2-3 years and could sign JJ and a 3rd PG with the min level exception that would be perfect for me.

  3. #3
    foretaz
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    I think the Pacers need to trade Jamaal Tinsley.
    ok...u want to get rid of the guy because he missed half the season this year...not that it matters, but if we did use that formula we would be getting rid of a lot of players this offseason....

    if i play devils advocate for a minute....if u like his play and the play of the team when hes in....how do u just jump to the fact that its time to get rid of him, because hes never gonna stay healthy? probably even more important is, ok, we get rid of him....now what do we do???? i guess i would kinda like an actual idea or two regarding what we do if we do get rid of him-as that would seem pretty important in weighing whether we should get rid of him or not....

    now if ur saying we need to upgrade the pg slot...ok...u seem comfortable with the backup, which i have a feeling most would probably be fairly agreeable on...i think u might get some heat over the 3rd pg but like u say, how much can u expect....i think it might be interesting to get a young talented pg in the draft and then u might be in a bit better position if tins did happen to go down....

    because im really not sure how easy it will be to upgrade from tins....its not like there are tons of point guards out there that would be an upgrade(with tins being considered in the top 6-8 when healthy)...and when it comes to health, u never know....its easy to get frustrated, especially after this season.... i mean the fact he had injury problems could just as easily be attributed to the fact that everyone was put in such a stressful position follwing the brawl that everybody became much more susceptible to injury....

    you see, the one thing we really dont know is what kind of difference him coming to camp so fit did for him last year....because i feel its about impossible to use last year as much of a barometer for him, given all that happened....and thats the difficult part about assessing any part of the team from this season....there are just so many variables.....

    how would u feel if u traded tins and he went somewhere and had an all star year and remained healthy?...would u look back on it and say that the overall frustration from this season maybe caused a bit of a kneejerk reaction in wanting to get rid of tins???

    do we really know hes fragile???? injuries happen in this game...and he didnt really suffer an injury last year til the playoffs...and while u can argue he didnt play the first two months-im not sure thats anything but rationalizing and u could just as easily argue that him coming into camp in superior physical shape could be just the difference maker u need....

    or u could go after kidd...or try the old guy payton...or stoudamire...or anyone...when u start to look at the alternatives out there...i thinnk u have to stop and really think long and hard....its so easy to get frustrated and say its time for someone to go...and im not saying ur frustrated...but at the same time....is it feasible to upgrade the spot??? and if so...what will it cost??? only after we determine these things, do i really think u can say, in all fairness, that we need to trade tinsley.....

    show me a way to get kidd here and not lose artest and jo....and be able to bring in a young guard in the draft that can be groomed for a couple years down the road....then i would agree with u.....the experience and leadership would be invaluable....but i really have my doubts that anything remotely resembling this could happen....if nick van exel or gary payton is the answer, well then i think id probably have to think twice about getting rid of tins....

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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Is there any room left in that wagon Peck, for I too am a darksider, big suprise. BTW, how do you circle the wagons if there is only one wagon...nevermind.

    As you know I have issues with Tinsley. The injuries you mention being secondary to the mental weakness. Tins is very very good when not injured and when he has his head in the game. If he either comes up lame or loses his mind we need a starting calibre PG in reserve ala Arroyo. A PG that can go in and not be pressured in the backcourt, one that can find his man and distribute. He does not have to be a scorer nor does he have to be Tinsley quality, but a slight upgrade from AJ is an improvement and would be cheaper than trying to replace a top 5 PG. I really do like AJ but, an upgrade at the back-up PG is where I see a better chance for improvement. (Sorry AJ if you're reading this, I promise to find you a really good situation)
    Eddie Gill is Geezer Jr's fav player not named Reggie so for that reason alone we have to keep him, not that it matters. He's there basically to learn anyway. Fred Jones is my favorite target for trade-bait. Less than adequate as BU PG and too undersized to be THE backup at 2, he is relegated to 3rd string IMPO, perhaps 2 1/2 string....but tradeable.



    My one fear in keeping Tinman is....Tinsley/Jax2/Artest...and to a degree JO....all have ref related issues. Can we have them getting frustrated during games and losing control of their emotions. No, I don't mean all three might pull an 11/19...but they could get their collective heads down over the refs and be taken completely out of the game by feeding off one another's frustrations. Just imagine a team of 2-3 or even 4 Jalen Rose's all at once.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by skyfire
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    JT's contract has a poison pill clause in addition to being base year doesn't it?
    Can't be both.

    If you're a player on your rookie contract who's been signed to an extension for bigger money you're poison pill.

    If you're in the first season of your new contract you're BYC. Being both is impossible - after July 1 Tinsley will be BYC.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    Can't be both.

    If you're a player on your rookie contract who's been signed to an extension for bigger money you're poison pill.

    If you're in the first season of your new contract you're BYC. Being both is impossible - after July 1 Tinsley will be BYC.
    SO he COULD be traded before 7-1? Like just prior to the draft? Not that I'm advocating that, just testing scenarios.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    He could be traded after, before is almost impossible, and if after, only to a team under the cap.

    as simple as that.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    SO he COULD be traded before 7-1? Like just prior to the draft? Not that I'm advocating that, just testing scenarios.
    He CAN be traded either way - just with poison pill (I believe - too lazy to check) what you get in return is someone with a salary worth half of what he's making now and what he makes with his new salary - averaged over the length of the contract.

    For BYC's your player's trade value is half his current salary.

    For most players, it doesn't make a lot of difference either way. To make a deal with Tinsley you'll either:

    A) Trade with a team under the cap
    B) Need to use a 3rd team to make salaries work
    C) Make it such a blockbuster that the difference in salaries is within the 15% (or is it 12.5%?) threshhold.

    Here's one for you. Atlanta REALLY needs a PG, they're under the cap and they have this Al Harrington fella ...
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    He CAN be traded either way - just with poison pill (I believe - too lazy to check) what you get in return is someone with a salary worth half of what he's making now and what he makes with his new salary - averaged over the length of the contract.

    For BYC's your player's trade value is half his current salary.

    For most players, it doesn't make a lot of difference either way. To make a deal with Tinsley you'll either:

    A) Trade with a team under the cap
    B) Need to use a 3rd team to make salaries work
    C) Make it such a blockbuster that the difference in salaries is within the 15% (or is it 12.5%?) threshhold.

    Here's one for you. Atlanta REALLY needs a PG, they're under the cap and they have this Al Harrington fella ...
    Please noooooooooooooo!
    Hell nooooooooooooooo!

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Dang I'm really going to be in a minority here. I stated in another thread that I get frustrated with the mental aspect of Tinsley's game and other times just marvel at what he can do. I want Tins2. However, I don't think JT's maturity level will ever catch up to his game. When his "manhood" gets challenged, there might as well be no other players on the court with him. He's going to try and beat his man throwing out any team options. I think we are going to have a big problem with attitude next year if some of these guys can't tone it down. I believe Rick thinks this too.

    I have been a critic of Johnson. As a person, I think Anthony is a great guy. As a back-up, I think Anthony is a great guy. But, my God, where did he get those hands. Honestly, I have never seen a guard have so much trouble keeping control of the ball. We won't see another season like this for AJ and I hope we never have to.

    As far as Gill, there isn't going to be anybody any better than him as a third-stringer. He tries and does what he is suppose to do so I say keep him.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays
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    Dang I'm really going to be in a minority here. I stated in another thread that I get frustrated with the mental aspect of Tinsley's game and other times just marvel at what he can do. I want Tins2. However, I don't think JT's maturity level will ever catch up to his game. When his "manhood" gets challenged, there might as well be no other players on the court with him. He's going to try and beat his man throwing out any team options. I think we are going to have a big problem with attitude next year if some of these guys can't tone it down. I believe Rick thinks this too.

    I have been a critic of Johnson. As a person, I think Anthony is a great guy. As a back-up, I think Anthony is a great guy. But, my God, where did he get those hands. Honestly, I have never seen a guard have so much trouble keeping control of the ball. We won't see another season like this for AJ and I hope we never have to.

    As far as Gill, there isn't going to be anybody any better than him as a third-stringer. He tries and does what he is suppose to do so I say keep him.

    So, we ride together on this one ABADays. Good, pass the French Fries.




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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    I've got your back Geezer
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    foretaz
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    Is there any room left in that wagon Peck, for I too am a darksider, big suprise. BTW, how do you circle the wagons if there is only one wagon...nevermind.

    As you know I have issues with Tinsley. The injuries you mention being secondary to the mental weakness. Tins is very very good when not injured and when he has his head in the game. If he either comes up lame or loses his mind we need a starting calibre PG in reserve ala Arroyo. A PG that can go in and not be pressured in the backcourt, one that can find his man and distribute. He does not have to be a scorer nor does he have to be Tinsley quality, but a slight upgrade from AJ is an improvement and would be cheaper than trying to replace a top 5 PG. I really do like AJ but, an upgrade at the back-up PG is where I see a better chance for improvement. (Sorry AJ if you're reading this, I promise to find you a really good situation)
    Eddie Gill is Geezer Jr's fav player not named Reggie so for that reason alone we have to keep him, not that it matters. He's there basically to learn anyway. Fred Jones is my favorite target for trade-bait. Less than adequate as BU PG and too undersized to be THE backup at 2, he is relegated to 3rd string IMPO, perhaps 2 1/2 string....but tradeable.



    My one fear in keeping Tinman is....Tinsley/Jax2/Artest...and to a degree JO....all have ref related issues. Can we have them getting frustrated during games and losing control of their emotions. No, I don't mean all three might pull an 11/19...but they could get their collective heads down over the refs and be taken completely out of the game by feeding off one another's frustrations. Just imagine a team of 2-3 or even 4 Jalen Rose's all at once.
    this is my real thought also, geez....tins is one of the better point guards in the league, when healthy....the possibility of upgrading is not likely....because a premium is placed on them....and despite kidds *****ing, i dont see new jersey letting him go...and i certainly dont see giving a star away for just a small improvement at the position.....u can talk about the validity of the leadership a gary payton might supply, but i cant see that as being an answer either....

    which leaves u with a point guard that ARGUABLY has a durability problem....which means u need to address his conditioning and his backup....hopefully he gets himself in superior condition and comes into camp ready to play a whole season....if not u have a great backup on the bench that will be one of the first guys off the bench anyway and will allow tins to play fewer minutes throughout the season, thus hopefully adding to his freshness come playoff time...and aj is not that guy...and thats where i think jasikevicous might be fitting it....someone who has experience, albeit not the nba probably works just as well...at least someone like this that can shoot, as we definitely need outside shooting ability, as well as distribute and dribble penetrate....more of a scoring point guard if u will....

    as for aj, hes been a great trooper this year....and he has really shined as best he can in his added role....which means his trade value will never be higher....so he will fit nicely in whatever package is deemed useful in acquiring another player, whether its this different point guard or filling out another need like additional outside shooting....or a banger inside...

    that said...new jersey can give kidd to us for just about any combination they would like from tinsley/aj, pollard, bender/croshere....though i think theres a snowball's chance in hell of that happening....so i look for an upgrade in the backup point guard...

  14. #14
    Member Doug in CO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Instead of trading Tins, can we just fire David Craig? Our medical staff just seems so incompetent in dealing with injuries... and perhaps more conditioning in the off season would prevent some as well. I am not a doctor, do not play one on TV... but something reeks.
    Heywoode says... work hard man.

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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    On the long term I don't see Tins playing 70+ games per season. I aggree with you on that, Peck. I don't want to trade him though. What I want is to basically have one starting PG and one that's as close as it gets to beying a starting PG.

    I think that we are going to get the most out of Jamaal if we play him between 28 and 32 minutes a game. I think he can stay as close to durable and healthy as we are going to get with Tins that way. So, in my view we get the most out of him on our team by limiting his minutes, that way we can have the Jamaal that is in my opinion the point guard we really want to have for this team. Someone who can penetrate with his dribble and either finish it with a short or med range jumper or do what he does with the best of best point guards on earth which is dishing. Further, he can shoot the occasional dagger to keep opposing defenses honest, give his direct opponent real problems when Tins is defending, because he really has become VERY decent at defense, gambles a little, but let's keep it real it pays of very regularly with a steal. He's absolutely the sort of PG we need and thus by definition I don't aggree with Peck on that we maybe shoot be getting a PG a la Chauncey Billups. If we do that, I fear, we really are going to have chemistry problems with JO, Ron and SJax ALL wanting their "fare" number of shots (everyone has to determine for him or herself what that number for each player is). Now IF our starting PG ALSO will be shooting a lot more I see really stormy clouds developping on the Pacers-horizon.

    So, limit his minutes to keep him durable, but play him enough minutes and at the most critical times to still have a huge impact on our team. So, who gets the remaining minutes? This is very important because we are not talking about 6 or 7 minutes a game, but much more and even more important from arguably the most important position on the court to get our offense working.

    First let me say that I have ALWAYS been one of AJ's defenders in here. I love the defence he brings and think he comes through on offense a lot of times at some of the most critical moments of the game. I think though when we limit Jamaal's minutes someone will have to take the court who can also still penetrate and dish-off off that, get by his man and create, keep the offense flowing aswell as someone who can bring up the ball without much of a problem. With all the great things AJ does ... this he does not do or at the very least he does it inadequate in my opinion. AJ, but also Gill, our third stringer just don't bring those things to our team, which I think are vital for what I believe our future PG-spot should bring.

    What does all of this lead too (in my crazy mind)? To put it short, we need to trade AJ or let him play as a back up SG, where he would be undersized though, and somehow get a new 2nd PG. The qualities of this new player I have described above.

    How to get this player? We could get him by using the draft. One way is to just use our own pick. I don't know if that's going to land the quality player we are looking for though. On the other hand the draft this year has a lot of point guards, right? So who knows. We might try to work our way up in the draft by trading either our own first rounder or second rounder and by adding a player of ours to it. Who might that be? Well I think the most realistic choices would probably be David, Fred, AJ, Jeff or Scot. And since I don't want to get rid of David or Jeff for this it leaves Freddie AJ and Scot as possible add's from our side and knowing Scott will come of the cap at the end of next season, I think we will keep him (I think we will only trade him if management thinks we only need relatively small "missing link" to make us go all the way that could be acquired just before the all star break trading deadline).
    So, that leaves Freddie and AJ. Personally I would be willing to part ways with either of them IF what we get back in the draft is substantial enough. Problem of this scenario is though we would get a relatively inexperienced PG on our veteran team and he would be playing substantial minutes. Would he be up to the task? Will he hit the rookie wall and be able to recover from it? And would Rick play him those minutes. Personally, I think those are some pretty big "if"s.


    The other way to acquire a new PG is by trading for one. The same names come around again here as by the scenario above. I do think management if they decide to keep Ron would be willing to let go off Scot in addition to either AJ, Freddie or our 1st or 2nd rounder this year to acquire that player from another team. Would that be enough? I don't know. Who should we be looking for? I don't know, but somehow the name of Bobby Jackson keeps popping up, though he likes to shoot, he's also able to penetrate and dish. He does have injury issues off his own though. So, anyone else with some names? Jason Williams? Maybe, but would he be good for our chemistry? Would he be willing to live by our gameplan and playing style, what's more ... would he be willing to play second fiddle? I don't think so. So, I don't know who we should be looking for.

    Those are mainly the routes to upgrading our PG position. Which route to take? I don't know. Both have their pro's and con's (sp?), but I think changes will have to be made at PG this summer for sure.

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  16. #16
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    which leaves u with a point guard that ARGUABLY has a durability problem....which means u need to address his conditioning and his backup....hopefully he gets himself in superior condition and comes into camp ready to play a whole season....if not u have a great backup on the bench that will be one of the first guys off the bench anyway and will allow tins to play fewer minutes throughout the season, thus hopefully adding to his freshness come playoff time...and aj is not that guy...
    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    as for aj, hes been a great trooper this year....and he has really shined as best he can in his added role....which means his trade value will never be higher....so he will fit nicely in whatever package is deemed useful in acquiring another player, whether its this different point guard or filling out another need like additional outside shooting....or a banger inside...

    Quote Originally Posted by foretaz
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    that said...new jersey can give kidd to us for just about any combination they would like from tinsley/aj, pollard, bender/croshere....though i think theres a snowball's chance in hell of that happening....so i look for an upgrade in the backup point guard...
    First of all... to the board and secondly I completely aggree with above statements. I'm not so sure we need a shooting PG though.

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug in CT
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    Instead of trading Tins, can we just fire David Craig? Our medical staff just seems so incompetent in dealing with injuries... and perhaps more conditioning in the off season would prevent some as well. I am not a doctor, do not play one on TV... but something reeks.

    LOL, you are not serious, are ya?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Good point guards and centers are two of the most difficult posistions to fill in the NBA. You have a handful of each that excel at their position in the NBA, and because of that, they demand very large salaries.

    I am concerned about JT's durability as well, and although I love Johnson as a backup, the team definitely does not run as well on offense when he is running the point.

    Here is a thought...why not try to draft someone for this position. It is a gamble, and it is unlikely that we will see an immediate impact, but maybe we can start grooming a guy that can eventually compete for the top spot. If Tin gets injured, which has been par for the course, then the rookie could develop quite a bit in his first year.

    Like many of you, I am impatient for a championship, but with the salary cap, it is very tough to solve one problem with a trade without creating another one. I would entertain trading Tins for somebody who fits the bill noted in Peck's comments, but like him, I can't really think of anyone who would at this point. Maybe that would help me see the light, or in this case, the dark
    When you're playing against a stacked deck, compete even harder. Show the world how much you'll fight for the winners circle. If you do, someday the cellophane will crackle off a fresh pack, one that belongs to you, and the cards will be stacked in your favor.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Don't buy the idea that Tins should be traded is a minority view. The dark sider's are hiding their numbers in shadows. But seriously I have yet to see a post that has said keep Tins and we'll win seventy games.

    I am not opposed to trading Tins although realistically I can't think of a trade that upgrades us at PG that isn't a young point guard who won't have to develop. I think there might be a better answer, though, have a swingman who can run/start the offense so that we aren't as dependent on Tins. We have one in Ron and any large trade we make should include one.

    Reggie was mariginal only when he stopped looking for his shot--meaning he could dump the ball into JO. SJax...well, this is the part of his game that I dislike most.

  20. #20
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Peck, as always you have given us all a lot to think about. But first I have to ask, is Jay on vacation, and for how long.

    One player I'd like to see the Pacers go after is Antonio Daniels to replace Tinsley. Daniels is not a pure point guard, but he has played on some pretty good teams and he plays well in big games. He was a huge favorite of Duncan and that is good enough to me. I think he's ready to be a starting point guard on a very good team. His defense is good and he can create his own shot, of course he is not ahe natural point. But what good does it do if your natural point guard is injured all the time.

    As you know I've been all over the map on Tinsley, and quite frankly I don't know where I am right now. I still don't like his defense, I still don't like how he mentally gets taken out of games and I still don't like how his shooting is not very good. Keep in mind yes his % was better this season, but teams just let him shoot wide-open jumpers they don't even attempt to challenge his shots.

    Having said all this if I thought he could stay healthy, I could live with his weaknesses and would welcome him being the Pacers starting point guard.



    Any team that is expecting to challenge for a championship needs either a point or shooting guard who can create offense at will. Look at the final 4 teams, they all have at least one backcourt player who can. I don't think the Pacers have a player who can. Tinsley is close, but he can be taken out.

    The Heat has Wade
    Suns have Nash
    Spurs have Parker and Ginobbli
    Pistons have Billups.

    All of those guys don't have to depend on the "offensive system" to get shots. Deep in the playoffs, the "offensive system" becomes less and less effective. You need a guy or two who can take the ball and say the hell with the offenisive system, get out of my way, I'm going to create an easy for myself a teammate or I'm going to get fouled.

    Artest is the only player the Pacers have who can do that, but really that is not always the best thing for the team. Jackson can do it at times, but if you notice teams started running a second defender at him as soon as he put the ball on the floor and a lot of turnovers were caused because of it.

    Not sure where I'm going with all this.

    let me end by saying I would like to see what the combo of Artest, Jackson, and J.O can do. If and it is a big if, if they can work together as a team that could be as good a threesome as any in the league. It would rival TD, MG, and Parker for the Spurs, or the Suns threesome.

    With Jax and Artest playing the 2 and 3 , every night there will be one mismatch in the Pacers favor on the offensive end, but best of all, on the defensive end, there will never be a mismatch. The Ron and Jax combo can cover any of the other 2 and 3's. (keep in mind a great player is a great player and there will be times when a great player is able to get off on Ron or Jax. But there won't be any mismatches.

    The rebounding should be excellent also, for once in about 18 years the Pacers backcourt won't be outrebounded.

    I'm done for now.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    I'd love to trade Tinsley for one of the top PG's in this draft, but only as a last resort.

    I think we really should look into Jason Kidd. His contract is one hell of a risk, but we aren't exactly anywhere near the salary cap. Jason is a great rebounder and defender at his position, and with Kidd, Jackson, and Artest, our 1-3 defense would be scary.

    Well, that's assuming we get to keep Ron. I think he would have to be involved in a Kidd trade, though.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  22. #22
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Good post, Peck. Well thought out. As for which camp I fall into, I think I ride the fence between the last two. One thing that leapt out at me was this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    You can be the best basketball player to ever play the game & if you can't play half the season then you really are not doing your team any good. There can never be a flow developed & every time you do get a groove going on, poof your gone again.
    This was written by the same person who said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    It's called a standard. If you have a standard you are using to judge something then it has to be used to judge other things as well, even if they are not judged the same.
    I certainly don't want this to digress into another debate on the subject, but I simply couldn't overlook it.


    As for Tinsley, I really don't know how I feel about trading him. Even when he's healthy and playing like a top-5 PG, like Ron and his emotional issues, I keep waiting for the wheels to fall off. But the same goes for JO. As for AJ, say what you will about him, but the guy is durable. It's frustrating as hell to watch him bring the ball up court and ball movement does stagnate somewhat when he's in, but he's also one of the more steadfast and reliable guys on the team. And that's something this team sorely lacks. Guys you can count on.



    foretaz, welcome to the board, but may I make a suggestion? I know the bold purple type represents a symbol of your individuality and your belief in personal freedom, but it is damn difficult to read. From what I can tell, you have a lot to bring to a discussion, but I can't get through your posts. Black type on a white page is the norm for a reason. It's easiest on the eyes. I'm only saying this because I want to read your posts without going half blind trying to do so.

  23. #23
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    foretaz, welcome to the board, but may I make a suggestion? I know the bold purple type represents a symbol of your individuality and your belief in personal freedom, but it is damn difficult to read. From what I can tell, you have a lot to bring to a discussion, but I can't get through your posts. Black type on a white page is the norm for a reason. It's easiest on the eyes. I'm only saying this because I want to read your posts without going half blind trying to do so.

    I agree, I simply can't read it.

  24. #24
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    I can read it, but it DOES take extra effort and is a little irritating, which is really a pitty because I really DO like his posts so far .
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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Looking ahead part 1......

    As always Peck with the great post, I cant wait to read the other parts of this thread. I dont agree with trading Jamaal but I agree with some of your points about him. I really want to read your posts about PF,SF and SG cause I want to see what you think about Ron,JO and Jack.

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