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My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

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  • My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    I think it's time to give him the same speech that Larry Brown gave to Rik Smits.

    Everybody kept telling Rik to put on weight so that he could bang with the big guys down low & become the low post center we always wanted him to be.

    It never worked.

    Larry came to town & in thier first meeting he told Rik to drop down in weight & concentrate more on speed. Speed & Rik Smits really just don't go together, however losing the weight did put Rik at the right size to be effective for about 6 more years.

    I think when all is said & done with Jermaine the same thing will apply to him. Jermaine went out & put on probably 20-30 lbs of muscle over the past two summers because he felt he needed the weight to battle in the post. At first I thought this was a good thing because I figured the size would help him vs. the Pistons & for that matter every other team in the NBA. However I've lately come to the conclusion that J.O. just doesn't carry the weight well.

    Don't get me wrong he looks superb but IMO, it has affected his ability to jump & defying all human logic it has actually made him a worse rebounder.

    There is a reason for that. He is not a postional or even a fundamentally sound rebounder. He has always relied on his ability to jump high to get the boards & right now he just can't jump as high as he used to & the older he gets the worse that will become.

    Now I think J.O. should be applauded for reshaping his body & I think the Pacers management should be booed for making it so that J.O. needed to reshape his body.

    J.O. has for the past two years begged anybody who would listen to him that we needed another big body to help him in the post. But all we had was Jeff Foster & even though he has his advantages Jeff is not a post player & thus it forced J.O. to be one when in fact he isn't one either on the defensive end.

    Now we have Dale & hopefully next season we will have him to & then right after that if all works well we will have David Harrison. Both of these guys are big enough & strong enough to guard the post thus allowing J.O. to switch back over the the weaker inside player.

    I even think it would help his defense to be thinner (God help me for saying that because I was an advocate for getting stronger) because he is really one of the best weak side shot blockers in the NBA but to do that he needs to be able to rotate fast & jump high. Right now he can't do either very well.

    I still beleive that this off-season securing Dale & even getting another post defender is really a top priority. No matter how this season ends.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  • #2
    Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Very true Peck.

    It's a bit of a compromise here. The extra strength has certainly helped him in regard to gaining low-post position, where as in the past he could be pushed out (although if he keeps taking these fadaways it's not going to matter). But it definitely has hindered his leaping ability.

    I remember Jermaine in his first couple years here getting up for some high-flying dunks, but you don't see that from him anymore. I also remember him in the Basketball World Champs (I think it was that) making some HUGE blocks on the fastbreak and the like. He was very mobile.

    I think the extra muscle does weigh him down a bit. Now the problem is if he was to drop some weight, would it affect his ability as a low-post scorer?

    It's strange because you'd think if he works on his lower body as much as his upper body, it wouldn't make a difference, but it does. I've experienced the same thing. A few years ago I was very skinny and quite athletic, but since spending a few years in the weights room I feel much less agile and explosive, even though my leg strength gains have been as much as my upper body.

    Good point Peck. I think it is definitely a matter of compromise though, he's got a skinny build, so he does need some of the muscle.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

      28 PPG 46.6 FG% 9.25 RPG (1.75 on the offensive end) 2.75 BPG .67 SPG 2 APG 3.16 TOPG 7.3-9.3 on FT's (shot 79.3%)

      These are JO's numbers from his healthy run of 20 games or so this season.

      These are consistent with something I've seen all year: Jermaine is grabbing less rebounds this year, but it isn't on the defensive side of the ball. His offensive rebounding is down by a lot this year, and I assume that is because he's had to shoot so much more now.

      So, uh, all in all, I still think Jermaine can rebound as well as he once did, if we just have enough guys healthy to take some of the offensive pressure off him....
      You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

        You all make some good points. I think the problems are made more noticeable right now because he isn't being as effective. I wonder if it might be because he's doing more things with his left hand dominant? Rather that really extending his right up, is he holding it back just a fraction to favor it slightly? Is he out of position for the rebounds and blocks or is he not reaching as far....or, perhaps (subconciously) not trying as hard to avoid pain?

        I haven't been to any of the PO games to see for myself, what do ya think..is he extending the arm fully?
        Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

          I'm generally not in favor of players gaining weight. Even if it's all muscle. A person's body structure is made to carry only so much weight, and J.O's body structure is very thin, so if he puts on more weight then his body can handle, injuries will result.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

            i.e. J Bender

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

              If we have a strong, bulky center then I would go for a 245# Jermaine. Better quickness gives him an advantage out on the floor over other PFs. Right now, JO couldn't get around Sheed if his life depended on it.

              As Peck mentioned, his ability to help and block shots is certainly facilitated by better quickness.

              A full wish-list to me is:
              1. Re-sign DD.
              2a. Re-sign JJ.
              2b. Extend Freddie.
              3a. Interior defender (if Artest stays).
              3b. Interor defender/scorer (if Artest goes).
              4. A quick guard to come off the bench that is a defensive specialist... our second unit already has enough scoring ability in Freddie and JJ. We just need a stopper. This team has always had problems with keeping opposing guards out of the paint.

              Reggie is retiring. Gill won't return. Edwards shouldn't return.

              The players that most of us would like to see traded are probably Pollard, Croshere and Bender. But who else would have to thrown in with one or more of them to make a trade work? Is it even possible?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

                Originally posted by SoupIsGood
                28 PPG 46.6 FG% 9.25 RPG (1.75 on the offensive end) 2.75 BPG .67 SPG 2 APG 3.16 TOPG 7.3-9.3 on FT's (shot 79.3%)

                These are JO's numbers from his healthy run of 20 games or so this season.

                These are consistent with something I've seen all year: Jermaine is grabbing less rebounds this year, but it isn't on the defensive side of the ball. His offensive rebounding is down by a lot this year, and I assume that is because he's had to shoot so much more now.

                So, uh, all in all, I still think Jermaine can rebound as well as he once did, if we just have enough guys healthy to take some of the offensive pressure off him....
                I think this says is all in terms of effectiveness.

                What I'm more worried about is injury. It's clear now that if JO spends his time banging while playing major minutes, he won't be healthy at this point in the season. I think we need to shuffle the team just a little so he and Jamal don't play major minutes most games. Even if we drop a few rungs, we need to remember the playoffs are what counts. One road win in the playoffs can counteract 82 games of positioning.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

                  TRADE JO WITH THOSE PLAYERS. I'd LOVE to see us get Chris Bosh/Jalen somehow.

                  I know everyone thinks a team with Sjack/Rose wouldn't work. But I think it would work VERY well bringing Jalen off the bench for Ron/Sjax.

                  Trade Jo/Croshere/Bender for Bosh/Jalen/Marshall

                  or something like that. With Bosh we get his great potential, I guarantee Jalen would perform much better in Indy than he is in Toronto...like Vince Carter.

                  Having Jalen come off the bench means we would always have scoring options. Look at this rotation

                  tins/aj/
                  Sjack/Fred/
                  Ron/Jalen/JJ
                  Bosh/Foster/JJ
                  Dale/David/Pollard?

                  Assuming we draft a BIG guy that trade would be awesome. But this is all a dream, literally...I had a dream this exact trade went down and it was the best dream I've ever had. I have no idea if the salaries even come close, but like I said it was all just a dream. And we can never have too many players from the 2000 team.
                  *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

                    I think that a leaner JO also plays into what the Pacers need to overcome the Pistons:

                    1. More scoring in the paint.
                    2. Better perimeter defense.
                    3. Better perimeter shooting accuracy.

                    A leaner (and healthier) JO would certainly lend to accomplishing #1, and through his scoring more in the paint, would also have a positive influence on #3.

                    I think you build teams to win championships. But you must also have an eye on the major ECS foes as well. Detroit, Miami and possibly Chicago.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

                      Originally posted by Jon Theodore
                      TRADE JO WITH THOSE PLAYERS. I'd LOVE to see us get Chris Bosh/Jalen somehow.

                      I know everyone thinks a team with Sjack/Rose wouldn't work. But I think it would work VERY well bringing Jalen off the bench for Ron/Sjax.

                      Trade Jo/Croshere/Bender for Bosh/Jalen/Marshall

                      or something like that. With Bosh we get his great potential, I guarantee Jalen would perform much better in Indy than he is in Toronto...like Vince Carter.

                      Having Jalen come off the bench means we would always have scoring options. Look at this rotation

                      tins/aj/
                      Sjack/Fred/
                      Ron/Jalen/JJ
                      Bosh/Foster/JJ
                      Dale/David/Pollard?

                      Assuming we draft a BIG guy that trade would be awesome. But this is all a dream, literally...I had a dream this exact trade went down and it was the best dream I've ever had. I have no idea if the salaries even come close, but like I said it was all just a dream. And we can never have too many players from the 2000 team.
                      If I ever see Jalen Rose in a Pacer uniform again, I will officially join the "Fire Donnie Walsh" bandwagon.
                      “Seventy percent of me talking on the court is personally for me to get me
                      motivated and going. Thirty percent is to see if I can get into the opponent’s head.”
                      Reggie Miller

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

                        Originally posted by brichard
                        If I ever see Jalen Rose in a Pacer uniform again, I will officially join the "Fire Donnie Walsh" bandwagon.

                        So would Larry Bird.
                        Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

                          Originally posted by Jon Theodore
                          TRADE JO WITH THOSE PLAYERS. I'd LOVE to see us get Chris Bosh/Jalen somehow.

                          I know everyone thinks a team with Sjack/Rose wouldn't work. But I think it would work VERY well bringing Jalen off the bench for Ron/Sjax.

                          Trade Jo/Croshere/Bender for Bosh/Jalen/Marshall

                          or something like that. With Bosh we get his great potential, I guarantee Jalen would perform much better in Indy than he is in Toronto...like Vince Carter.

                          Having Jalen come off the bench means we would always have scoring options. Look at this rotation

                          tins/aj/
                          Sjack/Fred/
                          Ron/Jalen/JJ
                          Bosh/Foster/JJ
                          Dale/David/Pollard?

                          Assuming we draft a BIG guy that trade would be awesome. But this is all a dream, literally...I had a dream this exact trade went down and it was the best dream I've ever had. I have no idea if the salaries even come close, but like I said it was all just a dream. And we can never have too many players from the 2000 team.
                          Would Toronto even trade Bosh for JO? Let alone Bosh, Jalen and Marshall? I highly doubt they would.

                          I'd love to see Bosh here though.

                          IndyToad
                          My warranty covers corrosion

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

                            Originally posted by 3Ball
                            One road win in the playoffs can counteract 82 games of positioning.
                            I get your point but that isn't exactly accurate because your reg season record will also determine 'who' you'll be playing. Slip far enough and you'll open the playoffs against the #1 seeded team and have a tough row to hoe all the way to the ECF's.

                            -Bball
                            Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                            ------

                            "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                            -John Wooden

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

                              Thank you, Peck. Same things I have been stating all year long - although some say I have 'left my brains at the door' I'd like to go back and see the athletic Jermaine, who could actually jump higher than Greg Ostertag.

                              And, although I don't want to get this thread even more off-track, I can't overlook the fact that my dream-trade has been brought up. Let me just say this: Toronto is very worried that they won't be able to keep Bosh.....I'll leave it at that.

                              Comment

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