Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40

Thread: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,628

    Default My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    I think it's time to give him the same speech that Larry Brown gave to Rik Smits.

    Everybody kept telling Rik to put on weight so that he could bang with the big guys down low & become the low post center we always wanted him to be.

    It never worked.

    Larry came to town & in thier first meeting he told Rik to drop down in weight & concentrate more on speed. Speed & Rik Smits really just don't go together, however losing the weight did put Rik at the right size to be effective for about 6 more years.

    I think when all is said & done with Jermaine the same thing will apply to him. Jermaine went out & put on probably 20-30 lbs of muscle over the past two summers because he felt he needed the weight to battle in the post. At first I thought this was a good thing because I figured the size would help him vs. the Pistons & for that matter every other team in the NBA. However I've lately come to the conclusion that J.O. just doesn't carry the weight well.

    Don't get me wrong he looks superb but IMO, it has affected his ability to jump & defying all human logic it has actually made him a worse rebounder.

    There is a reason for that. He is not a postional or even a fundamentally sound rebounder. He has always relied on his ability to jump high to get the boards & right now he just can't jump as high as he used to & the older he gets the worse that will become.

    Now I think J.O. should be applauded for reshaping his body & I think the Pacers management should be booed for making it so that J.O. needed to reshape his body.

    J.O. has for the past two years begged anybody who would listen to him that we needed another big body to help him in the post. But all we had was Jeff Foster & even though he has his advantages Jeff is not a post player & thus it forced J.O. to be one when in fact he isn't one either on the defensive end.

    Now we have Dale & hopefully next season we will have him to & then right after that if all works well we will have David Harrison. Both of these guys are big enough & strong enough to guard the post thus allowing J.O. to switch back over the the weaker inside player.

    I even think it would help his defense to be thinner (God help me for saying that because I was an advocate for getting stronger) because he is really one of the best weak side shot blockers in the NBA but to do that he needs to be able to rotate fast & jump high. Right now he can't do either very well.

    I still beleive that this off-season securing Dale & even getting another post defender is really a top priority. No matter how this season ends.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    302

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Very true Peck.

    It's a bit of a compromise here. The extra strength has certainly helped him in regard to gaining low-post position, where as in the past he could be pushed out (although if he keeps taking these fadaways it's not going to matter). But it definitely has hindered his leaping ability.

    I remember Jermaine in his first couple years here getting up for some high-flying dunks, but you don't see that from him anymore. I also remember him in the Basketball World Champs (I think it was that) making some HUGE blocks on the fastbreak and the like. He was very mobile.

    I think the extra muscle does weigh him down a bit. Now the problem is if he was to drop some weight, would it affect his ability as a low-post scorer?

    It's strange because you'd think if he works on his lower body as much as his upper body, it wouldn't make a difference, but it does. I've experienced the same thing. A few years ago I was very skinny and quite athletic, but since spending a few years in the weights room I feel much less agile and explosive, even though my leg strength gains have been as much as my upper body.

    Good point Peck. I think it is definitely a matter of compromise though, he's got a skinny build, so he does need some of the muscle.

  3. #3
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lappy Go Hucky
    Age
    26
    Posts
    17,540

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    28 PPG 46.6 FG% 9.25 RPG (1.75 on the offensive end) 2.75 BPG .67 SPG 2 APG 3.16 TOPG 7.3-9.3 on FT's (shot 79.3%)

    These are JO's numbers from his healthy run of 20 games or so this season.

    These are consistent with something I've seen all year: Jermaine is grabbing less rebounds this year, but it isn't on the defensive side of the ball. His offensive rebounding is down by a lot this year, and I assume that is because he's had to shoot so much more now.

    So, uh, all in all, I still think Jermaine can rebound as well as he once did, if we just have enough guys healthy to take some of the offensive pressure off him....
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  4. #4
    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Cumberland
    Posts
    15,265
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    You all make some good points. I think the problems are made more noticeable right now because he isn't being as effective. I wonder if it might be because he's doing more things with his left hand dominant? Rather that really extending his right up, is he holding it back just a fraction to favor it slightly? Is he out of position for the rebounds and blocks or is he not reaching as far....or, perhaps (subconciously) not trying as hard to avoid pain?

    I haven't been to any of the PO games to see for myself, what do ya think..is he extending the arm fully?
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

  5. #5
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,767

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    I'm generally not in favor of players gaining weight. Even if it's all muscle. A person's body structure is made to carry only so much weight, and J.O's body structure is very thin, so if he puts on more weight then his body can handle, injuries will result.

  6. #6

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    i.e. J Bender

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lifelong Indy-area resident
    Age
    62
    Posts
    4,655

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    If we have a strong, bulky center then I would go for a 245# Jermaine. Better quickness gives him an advantage out on the floor over other PFs. Right now, JO couldn't get around Sheed if his life depended on it.

    As Peck mentioned, his ability to help and block shots is certainly facilitated by better quickness.

    A full wish-list to me is:
    1. Re-sign DD.
    2a. Re-sign JJ.
    2b. Extend Freddie.
    3a. Interior defender (if Artest stays).
    3b. Interor defender/scorer (if Artest goes).
    4. A quick guard to come off the bench that is a defensive specialist... our second unit already has enough scoring ability in Freddie and JJ. We just need a stopper. This team has always had problems with keeping opposing guards out of the paint.

    Reggie is retiring. Gill won't return. Edwards shouldn't return.

    The players that most of us would like to see traded are probably Pollard, Croshere and Bender. But who else would have to thrown in with one or more of them to make a trade work? Is it even possible?

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,259

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    28 PPG 46.6 FG% 9.25 RPG (1.75 on the offensive end) 2.75 BPG .67 SPG 2 APG 3.16 TOPG 7.3-9.3 on FT's (shot 79.3%)

    These are JO's numbers from his healthy run of 20 games or so this season.

    These are consistent with something I've seen all year: Jermaine is grabbing less rebounds this year, but it isn't on the defensive side of the ball. His offensive rebounding is down by a lot this year, and I assume that is because he's had to shoot so much more now.

    So, uh, all in all, I still think Jermaine can rebound as well as he once did, if we just have enough guys healthy to take some of the offensive pressure off him....
    I think this says is all in terms of effectiveness.

    What I'm more worried about is injury. It's clear now that if JO spends his time banging while playing major minutes, he won't be healthy at this point in the season. I think we need to shuffle the team just a little so he and Jamal don't play major minutes most games. Even if we drop a few rungs, we need to remember the playoffs are what counts. One road win in the playoffs can counteract 82 games of positioning.

  9. #9
    Member Jon Theodore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Age
    29
    Posts
    1,760

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    TRADE JO WITH THOSE PLAYERS. I'd LOVE to see us get Chris Bosh/Jalen somehow.

    I know everyone thinks a team with Sjack/Rose wouldn't work. But I think it would work VERY well bringing Jalen off the bench for Ron/Sjax.

    Trade Jo/Croshere/Bender for Bosh/Jalen/Marshall

    or something like that. With Bosh we get his great potential, I guarantee Jalen would perform much better in Indy than he is in Toronto...like Vince Carter.

    Having Jalen come off the bench means we would always have scoring options. Look at this rotation

    tins/aj/
    Sjack/Fred/
    Ron/Jalen/JJ
    Bosh/Foster/JJ
    Dale/David/Pollard?

    Assuming we draft a BIG guy that trade would be awesome. But this is all a dream, literally...I had a dream this exact trade went down and it was the best dream I've ever had. I have no idea if the salaries even come close, but like I said it was all just a dream. And we can never have too many players from the 2000 team.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lifelong Indy-area resident
    Age
    62
    Posts
    4,655

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    I think that a leaner JO also plays into what the Pacers need to overcome the Pistons:

    1. More scoring in the paint.
    2. Better perimeter defense.
    3. Better perimeter shooting accuracy.

    A leaner (and healthier) JO would certainly lend to accomplishing #1, and through his scoring more in the paint, would also have a positive influence on #3.

    I think you build teams to win championships. But you must also have an eye on the major ECS foes as well. Detroit, Miami and possibly Chicago.

  11. #11

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    TRADE JO WITH THOSE PLAYERS. I'd LOVE to see us get Chris Bosh/Jalen somehow.

    I know everyone thinks a team with Sjack/Rose wouldn't work. But I think it would work VERY well bringing Jalen off the bench for Ron/Sjax.

    Trade Jo/Croshere/Bender for Bosh/Jalen/Marshall

    or something like that. With Bosh we get his great potential, I guarantee Jalen would perform much better in Indy than he is in Toronto...like Vince Carter.

    Having Jalen come off the bench means we would always have scoring options. Look at this rotation

    tins/aj/
    Sjack/Fred/
    Ron/Jalen/JJ
    Bosh/Foster/JJ
    Dale/David/Pollard?

    Assuming we draft a BIG guy that trade would be awesome. But this is all a dream, literally...I had a dream this exact trade went down and it was the best dream I've ever had. I have no idea if the salaries even come close, but like I said it was all just a dream. And we can never have too many players from the 2000 team.
    If I ever see Jalen Rose in a Pacer uniform again, I will officially join the "Fire Donnie Walsh" bandwagon.

  12. #12
    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Cumberland
    Posts
    15,265
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If I ever see Jalen Rose in a Pacer uniform again, I will officially join the "Fire Donnie Walsh" bandwagon.

    So would Larry Bird.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

  13. #13
    Member indytoad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Age
    30
    Posts
    2,503

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    TRADE JO WITH THOSE PLAYERS. I'd LOVE to see us get Chris Bosh/Jalen somehow.

    I know everyone thinks a team with Sjack/Rose wouldn't work. But I think it would work VERY well bringing Jalen off the bench for Ron/Sjax.

    Trade Jo/Croshere/Bender for Bosh/Jalen/Marshall

    or something like that. With Bosh we get his great potential, I guarantee Jalen would perform much better in Indy than he is in Toronto...like Vince Carter.

    Having Jalen come off the bench means we would always have scoring options. Look at this rotation

    tins/aj/
    Sjack/Fred/
    Ron/Jalen/JJ
    Bosh/Foster/JJ
    Dale/David/Pollard?

    Assuming we draft a BIG guy that trade would be awesome. But this is all a dream, literally...I had a dream this exact trade went down and it was the best dream I've ever had. I have no idea if the salaries even come close, but like I said it was all just a dream. And we can never have too many players from the 2000 team.
    Would Toronto even trade Bosh for JO? Let alone Bosh, Jalen and Marshall? I highly doubt they would.

    I'd love to see Bosh here though.

    IndyToad
    My warranty covers corrosion

  14. #14
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,115

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Ball
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    One road win in the playoffs can counteract 82 games of positioning.
    I get your point but that isn't exactly accurate because your reg season record will also determine 'who' you'll be playing. Slip far enough and you'll open the playoffs against the #1 seeded team and have a tough row to hoe all the way to the ECF's.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  15. #15
    sweabs
    Guest

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Thank you, Peck. Same things I have been stating all year long - although some say I have 'left my brains at the door' I'd like to go back and see the athletic Jermaine, who could actually jump higher than Greg Ostertag.

    And, although I don't want to get this thread even more off-track, I can't overlook the fact that my dream-trade has been brought up. Let me just say this: Toronto is very worried that they won't be able to keep Bosh.....I'll leave it at that.

  16. #16
    Member rabid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    2,464

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'd LOVE to see us get Chris Bosh/Jalen somehow.

  17. #17
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    23,738

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Peck, I completely agree. I've made this point before, but you made it better.

    Hicks, do we still have the Jermaine O'Neal video made by those Laker fans? I think you did a remix of it. The video (besides being fun to watch) is pretty instructive, because it shows how athletic and fast Jermaine used to be before he bulked up.
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

    • Log in. Even if you want to read instead of post, it's helpful because it lets you:
    • Change your signature options. You can hide all signatures by choosing "Settings" (top right) then "General Settings" (middle left) and unchecking the box "Show Signatures" (in the "Thread Display Options" area).
    • Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

    Enjoy your time at PD!

  18. #18
    sweabs
    Guest

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Peck, I completely agree. I've made this point before, but you made it better.

    Hicks, do we still have the Jermaine O'Neal video made by those Laker fans? I think you did a remix of it. The video (besides being fun to watch) is pretty instructive, because it shows how athletic and fast Jermaine used to be before he bulked up.
    Dang, I used to have that one before the computer self-destruction. Oh, how I miss those days. I actually saw Jermaine dunk the ball!

  19. #19
    Banned PacerMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,132

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm generally not in favor of players gaining weight. Even if it's all muscle. A person's body structure is made to carry only so much weight, and J.O's body structure is very thin, so if he puts on more weight then his body can handle, injuries will result.
    That's a small risk compared to the benefits. ANYONE benefits from more muscle. Any task then takes less % of muscle effort to accomplish. Endurance being affected by how much energy it's taking to do tasks, like blocking out,getting post position,playing defense,rebounding etc all take less out of you if you are stronger. As long as it's not over done like body builders there is nothing but benefit to being stronger. Doing load bearing exercise and weight training makes even your skeletal system stronger as you place increased load demands on it. The lower body loads are greater for sure, both muscle loading and the weight bearing of that extra muscle. But not even close to offsetting the increased performance level benefits.
    As Jermaine has had some knee and back problems it's likely he wouldn't be skying like he used to even if he was 20lbs lighter. Heck, when my back is flared up I can't get off the ground. Some of that comes in time and games to most NBA'ers. Lots of nasty falls when you get 3' off the ground and contacting other large bodies. Especially when you're 240lbs or more. Refs let the big guys beat on each other a lot more than the guards out front.
    I too hope to see him a bit lighter when Harrison takes over the middle
    But it'll be for quickness reasons. He's not close to being too big for his frame.
    Don't forget that he's a recognized BIG STAR now. Everyones beating on him now in an effort to get him off his game.

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lifelong Indy-area resident
    Age
    62
    Posts
    4,655

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    P-Man I don't agree.

    JO at 260 is not as quick as JO was at 245. At least I'm guessing that is the case because he rarely blows by other PFs anymore.

    And that is exactly where I see the advantages of JO being without the extra 15-20# of muscle. If he didn't have it, he would gain quickness to be able to get around his man, thereby causing a defensive problem in the paint for the opponent... probably resulting on more fouls, and more trips to the FT line for the Pacers.

  21. #21
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    55
    Posts
    11,603

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    But Jermaine is a Power Forward. I think he needs strength more than speed.

    I agree with what others have said, let's look at knee/back/shoulder as the slowown reasons. Imagine if he lost that muscle and became not just creaky "slow" but also got pushed around in the post.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  22. #22
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    23,738

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But Jermaine is a Power Forward. I think he needs strength more than speed.

    I agree with what others have said, let's look at knee/back/shoulder as the slowown reasons. Imagine if he lost that muscle and became not just creaky "slow" but also got pushed around in the post.
    I wish we had that video of Jermaine. It was heartbreaking looking at all of those dominant moves and realizing he can't do them any more.
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

    • Log in. Even if you want to read instead of post, it's helpful because it lets you:
    • Change your signature options. You can hide all signatures by choosing "Settings" (top right) then "General Settings" (middle left) and unchecking the box "Show Signatures" (in the "Thread Display Options" area).
    • Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

    Enjoy your time at PD!

  23. #23
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    21,090

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But Jermaine is a Power Forward. I think he needs strength more than speed.

    I agree with what others have said, let's look at knee/back/shoulder as the slowown reasons. Imagine if he lost that muscle and became not just creaky "slow" but also got pushed around in the post.
    :cough: Amare :cough:

    He doesn't over power anyone, he jumps over their head.

  24. #24
    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,069

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    :cough: Amare :cough:

    He doesn't over power anyone, he jumps over their head.
    ...so if you want to hire Doug Moe to coach your team, itd be a perfect fit....

    In case you havent noticed, Stoudemire gets beaten up a lot on defense.....

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

  25. #25
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Bilthoven, The Netherlands
    Age
    38
    Posts
    8,987

    Default Re: My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    28 PPG 46.6 FG% 9.25 RPG (1.75 on the offensive end) 2.75 BPG .67 SPG 2 APG 3.16 TOPG 7.3-9.3 on FT's (shot 79.3%)

    These are JO's numbers from his healthy run of 20 games or so this season.

    These are consistent with something I've seen all year: Jermaine is grabbing less rebounds this year, but it isn't on the defensive side of the ball. His offensive rebounding is down by a lot this year, and I assume that is because he's had to shoot so much more now.

    So, uh, all in all, I still think Jermaine can rebound as well as he once did, if we just have enough guys healthy to take some of the offensive pressure off him....
    I think we have a winner here .

    Regards,

    Mourning
    2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

    2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

    2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •