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Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

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  • #1

    Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

    I've only glanced at the board since getting home tonight so if I cover something that the rest of you guys hit, forgive me.

    Let's just start because there ain't much fanfare.

    The Indiana Pacers are a rare breed. They are the only team that I know of that can lose a game in the first quarter. They did it in a home game vs. Boston (I don't remember the game #) & they did it again today.

    I had a bad feeling that once we lost the lead we just would not be able to overcome it. I did take into consideration that even though we were playing lousy & Detroit was playing fairly well that we kept pulling within 10 & even once got it down to a 6 point game. But it was all for naught.

    There's lots of reasons things didn't work out for us but before we do that let's talk about our friends from the north.

    Detroit played a very disciplined game & Larry Brown today made the adjustments that were needed for them to win. I know that Larry is very hard on P.G.'s & I know Arroyo's defense probably drives him mad but against us he is very effective.

    He went to the bench today & they produced for him. I can only believe that he should continue to do this.

    I know fans in Indiana hate the guy but Rasheed Wallace is the best player on the floor. When he plays with a sense of purpose we just can't match him & it's unfortunate because talent wise J.O. is probably better. But I've said it before & I'll say it again, Jermaine is just lousy vs. his former mentors from Portland. They get in his head & he just never seems to be able to muster the fire vs. them that he does others. I know a lot of people are p!ssed about the off-court time they spend together, but I guess I just figure they are humans away from the court so they can do what they want. But on the court I just wish he would treat him as though he were Kevin Garnett or someone else. But it could also just be that Sheed knows him better than anybodye either.

    I haven't even mentioned Billups yet & he just killed us.

    So in summery, Detroit played very well & Brown definatley was the better coach today.

    However, it's still 2-2 so even though it may not be as good as it could have been we are still in the playoffs.

    Now to us.

    I take nothing away from Detroit because they won & they are the champs. But we didn't deserve to win with the way we played.

    Part of me wanted to come on here & wonder aloud how Detroit won the ball game. I mean they didn't play low post isolation offense with an outside option, they didn't have 1 player on the offensive glass & 4 guys running to stop the break, they weren't fronting the post. I thought all of these were mandatory to win ball games. But then I thought better about posting all of that.....

    Detroit gave us every shot we wanted from the perimater. Did you wonder why the Pacers shot 19 three point shots? Well simple the Pistons were giving them to us & were more than happy to oblige. Now you can argue that if we hit some of those shots the game would be differant & of course you would be right. But of course since we couldn't hit any of them they just kept backing off & praying that we would take them.

    Did you notice that the few times we actually drove to the basket that we either scored or drew a foul? Well if you did then you were better than our players & our coach. Because you would think that driving would be the # 1 & # 2 option. Or at the very least pick & roll.

    We tried it, but not nearly enough.

    I thought our energy on defense was actually pretty good, but once again our inability to score just killed us. There were times in the second half the defense collapsed but that was because Rick decided to go small & therefore it was an open invitation to drive the lane for Detroit.

    We might as well talk about Rick while were here. Look, nobody is saying he is a lousy coach (far from it) but the guy is not infalable either & I'm sorry but I lay a lot of this at his feet.

    *side note* Rick can't hit the shots for the guys so you can't blame him for that *end side note*

    Why he chose to do isolation plays again is beyond me. Jermaine O'Neal is not going to be able to take it to the Pistons when he is facing up. I can't even tell you how many times I looked out there to see J.O. in the paint on one side of the basket while all 3 of the other 4 were beyond the 3 point arc & the other player at least 15' out. I can't stand that offense, I hate it with the passion of a white hot sun.

    Look I give the guy credit for trying something differant by going small but it wasn't working & it was pretty obvious it wasn't working early on. I think he went a little long with that experiment.

    *side note* I will again say right up front I am a huge Dale Davis fan so I have no credibilty when it comes to him. But I thought the team was far more effective when he was in instead of Jermaine. I wish they would have played Jeff & Dale more today but it is a coaching call so I guess we will go with his thoughts *end side note*

    Round 4 goes to Larry hands down IMO. So now it's up to Rick to come back strong in game 5 & as we've seen all year long he will adjust.

    Let's look at the players.

    Jax. I wish we had two of him to play the Pistons. He can guard either Rip or Prince. He just can't guard both of them at the same time. Have you noticed the player he is guarding doesn't score very often? He took it strong to the hoop again today. There really isn't much to say about him other than a great game & he needs to do more of the same throughout the rest of the series.

    Dale. I know I know Peck talking about Dale big suprise. But I honestly thought he played very well today. He shut down the middle for the most part whenever he was in & I can think of three times that Billups threw the ball out of a drive because he ran into Dale on defense. I think it was a mistake to not play him more & I think he would have worked better with the small lineup than J.O. did. Dale again today had a game that if you looked only at the box score you would not understand his value on the floor. But again, it is me & he is Dale so feel free to overlook this.

    Jamaal. I hate Allen Iverson on the 76ers & I sure as hell don't want him disguised as Jamaal Tinsley. Look I have no problem with him getting into the lane & getting up a shot, in fact I like it. But he just didn't appear to be trying to even run any kind of offense today, he just seemed more interested in scoring himself. Now whether that was J.T. breaking plays or if this is what Carlisle called remains to be seen. But even though he shot decent from the field I thought he played a lousy game. 7 T.O.'s vs. 1 assist? That's not gonna work. 15 shots from your p.g. & 6 shots from your shooting guards? Not gonna work. Jamaal is the key to our team & when he serves up the rock our engine purrs. But when he becomes Mel Mel the abuser & get's no one else involved we suffer.

    Speaking of shooting guards.

    I made a vow that since this was Reggie's last year I would not complain about him & would only try & say nice things. So taking that vow in mind let me just say that I thought Reggie had nice shoes on today. That's my thoughts on Reggie for today.

    I've already covered J.O.

    I had no real problem with James Jones playing the 4 when we went small. He did a very good job on Ben when he was in there on the boards. Actually I think he out boarded Ben 6-3 in head to head competition. I always feel that anthing he gives us is a bonus because he was supposed to be the designated I.R.L. guy. So for a second round pick who wasn't supposed to play I'm very happy with him.

    A.J. did a very good job of running the offense, but he was horrid from the field. Hey, it happens so I'm not complaining about the misses. I just wish he would have driven more than he did because I think he settled for the jumper a little fast.

    Fred Jones is like a box of chocolates, you just never know what you are gonna get. On one hand he had a breath taking fieldhouse raising dunk & on the other hand he litterally put his head down & drove his shoulder into a defender & seemed shocked when a charge was called on him. He wasn't bad & in truth probably should have played more, but he wasn't great either.

    Jeff Foster. Jeff should feel proud & all of his fans should feel proud. He made Detroit alther their game plan. The fact we couldn't capitalize on this adjustment is to bad, but that's not his fault. Should he have played more? Probably. But again it is Carlisle call & I guess we have to live with it.

    Ok there were some Detroit fans in the crowd but I honestly didn't see any problems today. Something happened near the end up where Jay sits because I saw the Police take a guy out but I don't know what happened maybe Jay can fill us in.

    For some reason I thought the game started at 2 p.m. so we showed up at 1:30 so I got to see lots of stuff I normally miss with the shootaround stuff. Plus I got to meet DJ Paul B which was a thrill for Diamond Dave & myself. He's a real nice guy & a lot taller than he looks from far away. Sorry for bothering you at work, but it was great to actually meet you.

    All I can say is we've won 2 games in this series & I don't see why we can't win 2 more.

    Late Edit: I've just read some other post & all I can say is that I am stunned people are blaming the refs. for the game. Ok, maybe I shouldn't be stunned because people blame refs. for everything. But I thought the refs. weren't that bad & in fact seemed to let the players play. They were inconsistant but that is what is expected from NBA refs.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

    Great post Peck.

    You are right on the money with Fred Jones. For the life of me, I can not figure out why he doesn't drive to the hoop more. It seems like he settles to much for the outside jumpshot. He has developed a pretty decent outside shot since he came to the Pacers, and you can tell that he has worked hard on his three point shot. He did shoot well in our last game versus the Celtics, but overall, he just hasn't shot very well since he hurt his hand.

    I think he could cause so much more damage by slashing and driving against this Pistons team. Tinsley has been giving them fits on the inside, so why can't Fred? Fred is very quick, he has pretty good ball handling skills, and the guy is an unbelievable leaper.

    I am sure that the Wallace boys would swat a few of his shots away, but he could make some, and he could certainly get to the foul line.

    He got called for two charges quickly yesterday, at least I think it was him both times. He was called for one on Wallace, which I thought was generous to Rasheed because he didn't look set, and he went back on the defensive end determined to make up for his turnover.

    He actually did, and he interecepted a Detroit pass. He went back at Detroit out of control trying to capitalize, and he absolutely plowed over a Detroit defender. He nullified his great defensive stand with two costly turnovers.
    When you're playing against a stacked deck, compete even harder. Show the world how much you'll fight for the winners circle. If you do, someday the cellophane will crackle off a fresh pack, one that belongs to you, and the cards will be stacked in your favor.
    -Pat Riley

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

      Originally posted by Peck

      I know fans in Indiana hate the guy but Rasheed Wallace is the best player on the floor. When he plays with a sense of purpose we just can't match him & it's unfortunate because talent wise J.O. is probably better. But I've said it before & I'll say it again, Jermaine is just lousy vs. his former mentors from Portland. They get in his head & he just never seems to be able to muster the fire vs. them that he does others. I know a lot of people are p!ssed about the off-court time they spend together, but I guess I just figure they are humans away from the court so they can do what they want. But on the court I just wish he would treat him as though he were Kevin Garnett or someone else. But it could also just be that Sheed knows him better than anybodye either.


      .

      Part of me wanted to come on here & wonder aloud how Detroit won the ball game. I mean they didn't play low post isolation offense with an outside option, they didn't have 1 player on the offensive glass & 4 guys running to stop the break, they weren't fronting the post. I thought all of these were mandatory to win ball games. But then I thought better about posting all of that.....

      Detroit gave us every shot we wanted from the perimater. Did you wonder why the Pacers shot 19 three point shots? Well simple the Pistons were giving them to us & were more than happy to oblige. Now you can argue that if we hit some of those shots the game would be differant & of course you would be right. But of course since we couldn't hit any of them they just kept backing off & praying that we would take them.

      Did you notice that the few times we actually drove to the basket that we either scored or drew a foul? Well if you did then you were better than our players & our coach. Because you would think that driving would be the # 1 & # 2 option. Or at the very least pick & roll.


      Peck, I must say I enjoyed your sarcasm.

      I theorized that Sheed is more talented than J.O. in my post right after the game. At least he can do more things. Brown said he is as good of a defender he has ever coached. Interesting comments considering Ben is on his team.

      I really don't think Shed has gotten into his head, I think Sheed just defends him as well as anyone in the league and then the Pistons have Ben on the weakside to help if J.O gets down low.

      I thought the Pacers ball movement was very good yesterday, they were trying to do the right thing, trying to get good shots. Pistons adjusted their defense and decided to give us outside shots.

      Peck, one area I disagree with though is driving the the basket part. Pacers tried but when they did they turned the ball over quite a bit, I'm sure the coaching staff was beging them to drive and the players knew they weren't hitting threes, so they tried to drive more and more and that cuased many of the turnovers.

      There is no way you can beat the Pistons unless you hit some outside shots. There interior defense is too good.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

        Outside shooting is what won game 2 for the Pacers. Now that has to be
        balanced with inside work and offensive rebounding. That did not happen
        Sunday. It seems to me that the Pacers whenever they have the chance to put a team down and in bind they try and do it with the three. Maybe I just notice the times it does not work. Balance is the key.


        owl
        {o,o}
        |)__)
        -"-"-

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

          Originally posted by Peck
          I've just read some other post & all I can say is that I am stunned people are blaming the refs. for the game.
          Surely if it's good enough for Larry Brown it's good enough for some guys on a message board........
          PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

            As mentioned above, we lost this game in the first quarter.

            Reasons we lost:

            1) Live by the three, die by the three. When we attacked the basket, good things generally happened, but we kept taking the shots the Pistons wanted us to take - the long jumper. I hear somebody screaming, in their best Ren-and-Stempy voice, "EEHHH-DIOTS"

            2) Unforced turnovers

            Hell, the Pistons didn't beat us, we beat ourselves.

            3) JO's ineffectiveness (mostly due to court position) against the Pistons interior defense - interestingly the one thing I was going to give the Pistons credit for is the one thing Rick blamed himself for. And he's right, we've got to make an adjustment to get JO the ball in spots he's comfortable at. I look for more interior screening from Dale Davis and our Secret Weapon #62 to put JO in a better position to operate.

            4) Team didn't respond to Rick's 'small ball adjustment' - the Jeff Foster for James Jones swap did nothing for us

            5) Officiating should be no higher than #5 on the list. There were some calls I didn't like, but we got some 'breaks' too.


            If this has all been mentioned elsewhere, sorry. This is the first post I've read in a few days.
            Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
            Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
            Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
            Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
            And life itself, rushing over me
            Life itself, the wind in black elms,
            Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

              I'll disagree Jay - IMO you lost the game in the 3rd.

              I expected the Pistons to ramp it up at the start of the game - in essence to show the Pacers a level of competition they hadn't seen yet in the playoffs. I expected the Pacers to be down by 10-12 at the half. I thought if they didn't lose any of that margin the first 4 minutes of the 2nd half they'd get their legs, adjust to the level and make a game of it.

              That all worked until it was 56-50. MO was a Pacer right then. What I expected to happen was one of two things - the Pistons ramped it up another level (wasn't sure they had it) and pulled away or the Pacers would make this a grind-it-out, close game the rest of the way.

              I did not expect the Pacers to throw it away - and that's what they did. I don't recall the exact sequence but in the next couple of minutes Rasheed went through JO to knock the ball away (from TV I couldn't tell if that was a foul or not), JO decides to get a pointless foul by going through Rasheed for the ball (that was definitely a foul and dumbass play on JO) and Tinsley had a couple of TO's.

              Voila! 62-50 and I was pretty sure it was over. I think they got it back to 9 at one point later but it would've taken a miracle by then.

              The first half didn't help but I sort of expected that. Boston hadn't played that kind of game and neither had Detroit the first 3 games. It always takes a while to adjust. I thought Indy had a real shot but they fell apart mentally - didn't take care of the ball and played stupid.

              Tuesday's another day - and a Prime Number Game.
              The poster formerly known as Rimfire

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

                Hmm I have to agree with Rim here, but the sequence was different.

                We got inside a number of times, FT's and scoring, 56-50, a game.

                Then we had to take 3 3's in sequence, and dumb fouls on defense.

                end of the line.

                The plays were called from the side, as many, that's where i look for a "blame" though I do not blame anyone, there's 3 more games to play.
                So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

                If you've done 6 impossible things today?
                Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

                  Even if we lost the game in the third quarter, it was because of the same two reasons we dug a big hole in the first half:

                  1) Live by the three, die by the three.
                  2) Unforced turnovers.

                  The only 'bad call' of the night, IMO, happened in the third quarter, when JO was called for running through 'Sheed to break up a pass right after 'Sheed just did the exact same thing to JO at the other end of the court. But the entire arena probably heard me screaming at the refs on the play, begging for consistency.
                  Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                  Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                  Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                  Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                  And life itself, rushing over me
                  Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                  Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

                    Commentary from Jay, during the last play of the game:

                    "Look, there's Eddie Gill, doing the best ballhandling we've shown all game.

                    And he gives the ball to Austin, who makes our best post move of the entire game."

                    And the folks in front of us turned around and said, "Its been a bad game when that's true, and its certainly true."
                    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                    And life itself, rushing over me
                    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

                      Originally posted by Jay@Section204
                      Even if we lost the game in the third quarter, it was because of the same two reasons we dug a big hole in the first half:

                      1) Live by the three, die by the three.
                      2) Unforced turnovers.
                      Yeah - everything was coming together. You'd used some early offense and breaks to get back in it, then fell apart. Loss of composure or something.

                      From what Able says, I must have my play sequences entirely wrong.
                      The poster formerly known as Rimfire

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

                        Originally posted by DisplacedKnick
                        Yeah - everything was coming together. You'd used some early offense and breaks to get back in it, then fell apart. Loss of composure or something.

                        From what Able says, I must have my play sequences entirely wrong.
                        No, I think it had all the same substance as our early 9-2 lead:

                        smoke and mirrors.

                        We just caught the Pistons napping a bit at the beginning of each half. Once they all woke up, and we weren't playing 5-on-1 (Chauncey) anymore, we resorted to unforced turnovers and long jumpers.
                        Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                        Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                        Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                        Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                        And life itself, rushing over me
                        Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                        Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

                          Originally posted by Jay@Section204
                          Reasons we lost:

                          1) Live by the three, die by the three. When we attacked the basket, good things generally happened, but we kept taking the shots the Pistons wanted us to take - the long jumper. I hear somebody screaming, in their best Ren-and-Stempy voice, "EEHHH-DIOTS"
                          You're right, but we don't have much else to live on these days. I disagree with Peck saying that every time we drove to the basket something good happened. I actually think that driving was less effective, and that was a big reason why we lost. They shut down the lanes and our three's weren't falling. When you can't score inside or outside, you're running out of options.

                          By the way, I was glancing at the playoff +/- and noticed some interesting things. +/- can be terribly misleading, but I thought it was interesting to note the Jamal was at the top with +30 and AJ was dead last with -42. Which is about right. DD topped the list in the regular season but is in the middle with -2 in the playoffs, which, again, is pretty much right. Foster is 2nd with +13, which is also right. There are a few out of place folks (like Gill), but Reggie is bumping the caboose at -20. That needs to change.

                          We're a jump shooting team, yall. There's no other way we can score enough point to win. JO can't score enough inside to make this thing work. So, let's see, we're a jump shooting team, in the playoffs, in crunch time. Who should we be going to more?

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

                            Freddie's dunk was fun though.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Odd thoughts round 2 real game 4.....

                              Originally posted by Peck
                              Jax. I wish we had two of him to play the Pistons. He can guard either Rip or Prince. He just can't guard both of them at the same time. Have you noticed the player he is guarding doesn't score very often? He took it strong to the hoop again today. There really isn't much to say about him other than a great game & he needs to do more of the same throughout the rest of the series.

                              Do I dare. Yes I do.

                              Next season when Jax and Artest are on the floor together that will cause the Pistons all kinds of trouble. Jax or Artest can guard either Rip or Prince. Prince can guard Jax or Artest. But Rip cannot guard Artest at all and likely will struggle against Jax. So advantage Pacers.

                              Against Miami it is even more of a mismatch with Eddie Jones having tguard either Artest or jax and then Damon Jones or Wade wil have to guard the other guy. That is at least one big mismatch. And yet on the other end we have good defensive matchups.

                              I say no team in the league will have the players at the 2 and 3 spot that the Pacers will have defensively and they are also very good offensive players. And if there a two guard who is great off the dribble who is just too quick for Jax or Ron then Freddie can come in and defend that player.

                              Sorry, I had to make this point, scream at me if you want.

                              I

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