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Thread: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

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    Default VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    Pacers lose Artest but find Themselves
    Indianapolis

    THERE are two Indiana Pacers teams.

    There are the prebrawl Pacers, whose symbol was Ron Artest: tough, physical, bruising. This was a team for which toughness meant tracking down perpetrators and handing out instant justice.

    Then there are the postbrawl Pacers with multiple identities, a team for which toughness has meant perseverance and overcoming adversity, taking its punishment and making the best of a difficult situation.

    I like these Pacers a lot better, and I'm not alone.

    Who could have guessed on Nov. 19, after the horrific brawl at the Palace of Auburn Hills, that Indiana would evolve into an admirable underdog?

    Several Pacers, led by Artest, charged into the stands to beat up Pistons fans they suspected of throwing objects at them. It was frontier justice; the Pacers became do-it-themselves judges, juries and executioners. The altercation sparked a near riot and resulted in several suspensions, including Artest's for the rest of the season.

    After a morning practice on Friday, the Pacers' Austin Croshere said he had sensed the team's change in attitude. "You see in sports where a team will make excuses for themselves, or when things don't go well, they blame it on other people," he said. "We just refused to do that. We had every opportunity to do that. We had every opportunity to make every excuse in the book, and we just refused to do that."

    A week ago, I felt that the Pacers could not win without Artest. But now I'm not so sure that they don't have what it takes to reach the final. Last night, they continued their unlikely playoff run and took a 2-1 series lead over Detroit with a 79-74 victory. Shaquille O'Neal's deep thigh bruise puts a serious dent in Miami's chances. His absence opens the door for every playoff team in the East, including Indiana.

    While Indiana battles Detroit, Artest is on a Band-Aid tour to repair his image. He is going on talk shows and giving magazine interviews, putting his spin on his behavior and his suspension. But Artest is missing the point.

    "His heart is in the right place," Croshere said.

    But Artest's heart isn't the issue. His emotions are. This is a matter that is deeply rooted and cannot be addressed with a mere "I'm sorry" on ESPN.

    Croshere said he had watched part of Artest's interview. "I just turned it off because it's kind of at the point now where I think everybody on the team is like, 'Well, I'll believe it when I see it,' " Croshere said.

    "Ron is a good guy," he added. "I see him in practice, I go up and talk to him. We talk about our kids all the time. But what's going to happen in a game where his guy gets 25 or 30 points or he misses a shot at the end of a game; he doesn't get the ball at the end of a game; high-stress situation. How does he handle that?

    "Ron's made a lot of mistakes since he's been here, and he needs to atone for that."

    The Pacers are looking for deeds, not words.

    "These interviews are fine," Croshere said. "I'm sure he's learned from his mistakes, but you're not putting him in a situation where he's made mistakes. It's not a high-pressure situation to sit in front of a camera and answer questions."

    The fallout from the brawl has had an upside for Indiana. A number of players who craved playing time - Fred Jones, James Jones and Croshere - had the opportunity to play, and have played well. The starters and the stars, except for Artest, are back from injuries and suspensions. Those who were playing more minutes are back to being role players, but the increased playing time has benefited everyone on the team.

    The fallout from the brawl has this downside: The basketball intensity of this series will suffer because the physical nature of each team will, out of necessity, give way to a certain restraint.

    Advantage Pacers.

    The Pistons and the Pacers are walking on eggshells. The series will not be as uncompromisingly physical as it would have been had there never been a brawl. Nobody wants to be thrown out of a playoff series, and no one wants to be ejected from a game in this series. Everyone connected with the brawl is ashamed and a little embarrassed by what happened, and now the Pacers have emerged with a moral imperative. They were punished, and they have endured.

    "People are drawn to an underdog story," Croshere said. "And even though we shot ourselves in the foot, we've kind of become the underdog since that incident."

    I'm not convinced the Pacers would have made this great run had Artest been in the lineup. Reggie Miller would not have become the clutch player of old; last night, he made a field goal with 10.7 seconds left and also made four free throws down the stretch. The Pacers have created an identity without Artest.

    In fact, the question is not what would happen if Artest were playing. The reality for Artest to consider is that if he were here, the Pacers might not be.

    E-mail: wcr@nytimes.com



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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "It's a league game, Smokey"

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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    Wow; pretty honest comments from Cro.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    Interesting article. The writer said many things some of you have said recently.

    I also find nothing wrong with anything Croshere said in this article. It is all true. The players could not care any less what Artest says on ESPN. And Artest has to repair his image and his place on the Pacers through his actions not by what he says in some interview.

    One last thing. Cro is by far the best interview on the team. Better than J.O.


    I did not take anything Cro said as him having harsh feeling towards Ron. Cro was just very honest in his assessment of the situation.

    This might surprise some of you, but I don't disagree with a word that Cro said

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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    -snip-
    "Ron is a good guy," he added. "I see him in practice, I go up and talk to him. We talk about our kids all the time. But what's going to happen in a game where his guy gets 25 or 30 points or he misses a shot at the end of a game; he doesn't get the ball at the end of a game; high-stress situation. How does he handle that?

    "Ron's made a lot of mistakes since he's been here, and he needs to atone for that."

    The Pacers are looking for deeds, not words.

    "These interviews are fine," Croshere said. "I'm sure he's learned from his mistakes, but you're not putting him in a situation where he's made mistakes. It's not a high-pressure situation to sit in front of a camera and answer questions."
    -snip-
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    If I was Croshere I would keep an eye on Sassan at all times. Sounds like Cro has been drinking Haterade!

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for A

    Quote Originally Posted by btowncolt
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    What??!?! I thought they all wanted to make babies with Artest and ride with him to the crazy house? How dare Croshere say that!
    Cro must ride in a different car... not together with the other guys....


    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    Quote Originally Posted by abington
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    like, 'Well, I'll believe it when I see it,' " Croshere said.
    Hmm.... it seems I got blasted just the other day, for saying this....

    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    I've been saying that for so long ... all the extra stuff he's doing doesn't matter - we already know he's a kind, gentle, caring man off the basketball court - he always has been according to the stories. But that has no correlation to his on-court behavior.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for A

    This is all a plot by Jay and Diamond Dave. Poor Austin was just minding his own business when they hit him with the Haterade bath........

    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    Harsh feelings? I dunno if i'd call them harsh.
    Its straight to the point, Ron's made mistakes, he needs to atone for them. That isn't going to happen until his teammates see him do it in a high pressure situation on the court.

  12. #12

    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    While I may not disagree with much Cro said, I sure disagree with what the New Yorker had to say:

    This is nonsense.

    I'm not convinced the Pacers would have made this great run had Artest been in the lineup. Reggie Miller would not have become the clutch player of old; last night, he made a field goal with 10.7 seconds left and also made four free throws down the stretch. The Pacers have created an identity without Artest.
    Last year with a flawed team we won 60 games and made it to the East finals.

    He doesn't think we would have beaten Boston in less than seven this year with Artest? He doesn't think we would have been greater than a sixth seed?

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for A

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman
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    While I may not disagree with much Cro said, I sure disagree with what the New Yorker had to say:

    This is nonsense.

    Last year with a flawed team we won 60 games and made it to the East finals.

    He doesn't think we would have beaten Boston in less than seven this year with Artest? He doesn't think we would have been greater than a sixth seed?
    Good post.
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    all right, first time I've really honestly questioned what his teammates thing about him.

    Wow


    wow

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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    I think the title of this thread is very misleading. The article proves he likes Ron, he just has to be shown that Artest has changed. Nothing harsh about that judgement.

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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for A

    Quote Originally Posted by abington
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    "Ron's made a lot of mistakes since he's been here, and he needs to atone for that."


    This is, I think, the heart of what Croshere feels about Ron. I think it's absolutely fair, and some may say it's generous. But let me point out what it doesn't say. It doesn't say Croshere thinks Ron should be traded. It doesn't say anybody on the team does. It does say they want him to do really really well to balance all the things he screwed up (and he's done more than his share). If the guys on the team didn't want to play with Ron, it seems like we'd be hearing "Ron's made a lot of mistakes, and frankly guys are sick of dealing with them."

    Ron can't atone for his mistakes by playing on another team.
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    Never to be outdone in my Pacers P.R. conspiracy world I live in I have to ask a question.

    Now I may be paranoid but to me the Pacers players have always followed a very strict code of conduct in terms of interviews. You never hear any dirt nor do you ever hear any of the behind scene action.

    The local press have always been willing accomplises in this but you still never heard a word in the N.Y. or Chicago Papers with direct quotes either.

    I'm just curious since it was Croshere if this wasn't something that the Pacers management wanted said? Austin can be accused of a lot of things but the one thing I think we can all agree on is that he is a good soldier in survice to the Pacers. My guess is that Donnie wanted this out there or it wouldn't have been.

    I guess my question is do you think this was a heart felt talk with Austin or do you think that his was a heart felt talk with Austin at the direction of Donnie Walsh?


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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    [Sassan] Naw, must just be some kind of inner-city hatred with Austin. [\Sassan]

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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I guess my question is do you think this was a heart felt talk with Austin or do you think that his was a heart felt talk with Austin at the direction of Donnie Walsh?
    No, this was all Austin here and I'm in the complete minority probably when I say Austin needs to keep his mouth shut. Be a man and tell Ron Artest to his face what you think Cro and better yet Austin should concern himself how he's reacting to pressure situations right now since he's still playing for the team.

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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for A

    Quote Originally Posted by RWB
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    No, this was all Austin here and I'm in the complete minority probably when I say Austin needs to keep his mouth shut. Be a man and tell Ron Artest to his face what you think Cro and better yet Austin should concern himself how he's reacting to pressure situations right now since he's still playing for the team.
    I am joining that minority, these comments are "out of line" and definitely harder to swallow from #12 in the rotation, who would be most likely not even on the roster had Ron been available.
    Better he shows what he's made of, since he will top the list of overpaid players again next year.

    Also if you read the article "carefully" you will notice that Austin didn't say that much, most of it is the writer "posing" the statements or "thinking aloud".
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    Several Pacers, led by Artest, charged into the stands to beat up Pistons fans they suspected of throwing objects at them. *sigh* Will they EVER get it right? Will anyone ever call them out on this type of crap?



    But to Austin. Any other year and I'd say AC was trying to force a trade. But this is his option year, he either exercizes his option and gets paid fortune to sit or he doesn't and he signs elsewhere for whatever he can get.
    But hoestly, I think it is AC being AC...assuning these are direct quotes and not some hacks fantasy. But it sounds too much like what we've been saying to be mere fantasy. I especially note that AC is quoted as mentioning the 25 point leads and the blown calls and not really knowing how he'll react under pressure. I know I have mentioned that the team will be looking over their shoulder watching him (patting self on back) and never really being comfortable that nothing will happen.

    I honestly do like Ron and would love to see him succeed here...but I just don't ever believe it will happen....and he owes me, the the fans, his teammates, and especially Reggie, an honest apology. One that shows he really does "get it". Unfortunately, the only way to prove it is honest is by playing 2 or 3 perfect seasons and then saying it.
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    [Putting on my Peck Wannabe hat]

    My odd thought that just occured to me. For all the boo hooing in yesterdays paper about Artest going to the national media with his interviews...we have to read the NY Times to get a candid interview with one of Ron's teammates? Why couldn't the Star or WNDE have gotten these comments from Austin?
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for A

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    I am joining that minority, these comments are "out of line" and definitely harder to swallow from #12 in the rotation, who would be most likely not even on the roster had Ron been available.

    Really? Ron Artest let his team down as much as any player I can think of in NBA history - maybe in the history of sports (though I'm sure there's an example out there of a player who quit on his team at a key moment) and you don't think a player has a right to call him out on it?

    If Ron wants to run around in public and do image revision then I don't see where a response is out of line. IF he comes back Artest better realize that he has a LOT to make up for. I know I wouldn't trust him - and it would take me a long time before I did.

    Heck, in my Y league if a guy doesn't show up for a game and doesn't let us know we don't trust him for a while - and that's a pretty pissant situation compared to what Ron did to the Pacers.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for Artes

    I'm surprised Cro said that. Not sure if I like the timing so much, but I guess it doesnt really matter.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: VERY Interesting NYTIMES story about the Pacers and Austin's harsh feelings for A

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    Really? Ron Artest let his team down as much as any player I can think of in NBA history - maybe in the history of sports (though I'm sure there's an example out there of a player who quit on his team at a key moment) and you don't think a player has a right to call him out on it?

    If Ron wants to run around in public and do image revision then I don't see where a response is out of line. IF he comes back Artest better realize that he has a LOT to make up for. I know I wouldn't trust him - and it would take me a long time before I did.
    OK one at a time: "in NBA history"????? I suggest you read up on that history, worse "let downs" have happened a lot of the times, people "forcing" a trade and so on, so don't go there.
    If you were living in the UK I would tell you to read less tabloids and form your own opinion of what you see, not what you read.
    I am firmly in the camp that believes that what Jax did on 11/19 was a lot worse, I also think that Ron's "flagrant" in the ECF was nowhere near that, and I judge that upon what I see if I replay that game.

    Players have every right to call him out on it, however they have every bleeding day of the week to do that, in the lockerroom, on the practise court, on the phone, as I am sure they all have his number, or they can even pop by his house, they do not need a crummy NY reporter to this for them, it is described as "class"

    Ron doing image restoration, no doubt partly with help of the Pacers organization, does not need "contra weighing" by his teammate, #12 on the roster and a grossly overpaid dude at that as well.
    There are enough "enemies" out there to not need this from Austin.

    This "Ron went into the stands beating people up" has caught on nicely, in my book it is revisionist, watch the tapes again, see what really happened.

    And Ron's "quitting" on the team? that's been hashed out enough and was not the reason he was suspended this ridiculously long period of time, surpassing a guy who tried to kill his coach, ot the lot that has been brought up for drug charges, wife beating and other niceties.
    The quiting is something the team deals with, in the locker room and with management, they do not need the press to solve that.
    Let me rephrase; they do not need Austin "overpaid" Croshere for it
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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