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Thread: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

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    Question Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    I know we all laud and praise Rick for taking the high road. And by the way, I'm not exactly sure how I feel on my own question. On one hand, I wish everybody would leave the officiating for the fans to bicker about (esp on message boards )

    However, there is something to be said for getting a reaction. Doc Rivers complained about screens... we saw an increase in calls for illegal screens on the Pacers the next game. I distinctly remember the way the entire Bulls/Pacers series shifted in officiating based on comments to the media.

    Phil complains about the officiating... more fouls were whistled on the Pacers. Larry complained about Pippen fouling Mark Jackson everytime he brought up the ball... Pippen starts getting whistled for it in MSA.

    If Larry is going to complain about the nickel and dime stuff he is getting, maybe it is appropriate for Rick to ask when and if there will ever be a foul called when Jackson drives it to the hoop.

    As a person who appreciates taking the high road, I am 100% for what Rick is doing. But, you also have to use every bit of influence as a coach to win a game. If the next game is called awfully and in favor of Detroit, we'd better see the fired up Rick again!

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Rick probably complains about bad officiating, but not at press conferences, or through the media. I heard one of the talking heads say that coaches and owners typically call into the league office to discuss controversial calls after games.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    Rick probably complains about bad officiating, but not at press conferences, or through the media. I heard one of the talking heads say that coaches and owners typically call into the league office to discuss controversial calls after games.
    I'm sure they all do that, but when you call the officials out in the media... calls certainly seem to change.

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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Guess we'll find out tomorrow if it's a mistake or not. It's gonna be a foul fest, the only question is if it'll be one-sided or both ways.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Many of you will not like this, but if there were something to complain about in the first three games, then yes Rick should make his feelings known. If the Pistons were getting away with the same things every game play after play, then yes. If there just random bad calls here and there, then no.

    I enjoyed Chuck Dailey's comments during the game last night. Rick was an assistant under Chuck for a few season. he said that Rick is extremely smart, hardworking and has the perfect demeanor to be a great NBA coach.

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    If it means anything, Coach Popovich doesn't play the blame the refs in the media game either. His opinion is that you can't change it, so don't worry about it.

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    I'm sure they all do that, but when you call the officials out in the media... calls certainly seem to change.

    Maybe I am naturally dopamine-deficient or something, but I have never noticed that pattern.

    To me, the refs are equally bad each game, but only the losing team/coach mentions it, because they need to let go of some pent-up frustration. I don't personally think it actually affects the result of the next game...
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    canyoufeelit
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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    When you are a bruising physical team like the Pacers, Pistons, Spurs, etc. generally it isn't a good idea to complain to the officials

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    I think it makes a difference. Human nature. But I also think the ranting and raving can backfire on you. I think that's been the case for JO.

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Many of you will not like this, but if there were something to complain about in the first three games, then yes Rick should make his feelings known. If the Pistons were getting away with the same things every game play after play, then yes. If there just random bad calls here and there, then no.

    I enjoyed Chuck Dailey's comments during the game last night. Rick was an assistant under Chuck for a few season. he said that Rick is extremely smart, hardworking and has the perfect demeanor to be a great NBA coach.
    Rick and Chuck are very good friends, in fact I remember that Rick had Chuck present his COY trophy to him when he won it in Detroit. Just curious as I missed the comments did he say anything else?

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    I'm sure they all do that, but when you call the officials out in the media... calls certainly seem to change.
    I think the officials may be a bit more sensitive to this type of stuff right now after the whole thing with Van Gundy. After hearing both Larry and Rick last night I felt like if anything the officials must appreciate the way Rick handled it and hopefully despise Larry's whining as much as I do! Maybe it will at least off set any effect Larry's comments may have had if Rick hadn't countered so strongly. I guess we'll see.

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    Maybe I am naturally dopamine-deficient or something, but I have never noticed that pattern.

    To me, the refs are equally bad each game, but only the losing team/coach mentions it, because they need to let go of some pent-up frustration. I don't personally think it actually affects the result of the next game...

    Well, I've just given you some specific examples I remember. I mean, how often do you see offensive screens called in the NBA? You could whistle that each time down the court, but since Doc went to the officials, it certainly seemed like those foul calls increased.

    The most obvious example was in the Bulls/Pacers series. When we were in Chicago it was called one way and totally different in MSA. And I'm telling you, it gave each team a major home court advantage based on what the officials were looking for.

    When Pippen was allowed to crowd Mark Jackson, we were worthless. When Larry Bird complained to the media about Pippen fouling him each and time down the court, things changed. Larry even said something like "lets see Jordan score with Scott draped all over him like the officials are allowing Pippen on Mark Jackson."

    I could also be forgetting this piece, but on the very first offensive posession in MSA, I believe Pippen was called for a foul for crowding Mark Jackson. It was an example of a night and day difference with the media. I don't think Bird wanted to go to the media, but Phil kind of forced his hands a bit with his comments.

    The biggest change I foresee in this next game is that Reggie will get fewer calls. I'm not sure he'll have any more called on himself, but he may not get away with the Reggie flops we have all grown to love.

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    The pacers are the best story in the NBA. They will win this series if the "NBA" has anything to do with it. Anywhere besides Detroit probably wants to see Indy win, it's just such a cinderella story.

    I don't see too many calls favoring detroit. They have been immature and whiny this whole series. The pacers organization has been what it is known for, a class act...despite the ron thing.

    Pacers are taking this series, just sit back and enjoy the ride kids. Carlise is the SUPERIOR coach and AT THIS POINT we are the superior team. Game over.

    We want it more, we're in better position to win....yeah...game over.

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    I have mixed feelings on this one. I've closely followed plenty of series where coaches griping about refs made a difference - particularly Bulls-Knicks. One time Phil would gripe about something and the games were called differently, the next Riley would gripe and the refs would follow up with another "adjustment."

    More than anything else I think this points out the overall suckiness of NBA refs - half the guys (and all of Violet) seem not to have any friggin' philosophy - i.e., "THIS is a foul and THIS is not." or "I'll blow a whistle NOW, but not NOW." (shakes head in disbelief) The only rationale I can see for changing how you call a game is if the overall physicality is on a road to where it might erupt in on-court trouble - tempers get high enough to where you might have a fight or something.

    That said, I'm certain that what Riley and Jackson say to their guys (Larry Brown too I'd say) is, "You guys don't worry about the refs - that's MY job. There's nothing you can do about them anyway. You just go out and play. I'll have your back on this."

    If your team can do that - and the Knicks and Bulls in the 90's could - then go ahead and whi ... er, comment on officiating after games. In a tough series it might give you an edge.

    The problem is, the Pacers have a history here. Isiah used to whine about the refs all the time - incessantly. I've never seen such a thing. Heck, he even used the officials as a reason why he started Sam Perkins and Derrick McKey. And the team picked up on it. We all remember Jalen. By the end of Zeke's first season JO and Al Harrington were doing the same thing - worrying more about the refs than their game. And JO and Jax still show that tendency.

    So while there's a time-honored tradition of complaining about calls in the NBA, because, after all the refs suck so bad that they'll let coaches determine how they call games, I'm not sure it's the right thing for the Pacers. Reggie Miller gets a special dispensation BTW - he knows how to do it and he uses non-calls as fuel, the same as he does a hostile crowd.

    Them's my thoughts anyway.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    I have mixed feelings on this one. I've closely followed plenty of series where coaches griping about refs made a difference - particularly Bulls-Knicks. One time Phil would gripe about something and the games were called differently, the next Riley would gripe and the refs would follow up with another "adjustment."

    More than anything else I think this points out the overall suckiness of NBA refs - half the guys (and all of Violet) seem not to have any friggin' philosophy - i.e., "THIS is a foul and THIS is not." or "I'll blow a whistle NOW, but not NOW." (shakes head in disbelief) The only rationale I can see for changing how you call a game is if the overall physicality is on a road to where it might erupt in on-court trouble - tempers get high enough to where you might have a fight or something.

    That said, I'm certain that what Riley and Jackson say to their guys (Larry Brown too I'd say) is, "You guys don't worry about the refs - that's MY job. There's nothing you can do about them anyway. You just go out and play. I'll have your back on this."

    If your team can do that - and the Knicks and Bulls in the 90's could - then go ahead and whi ... er, comment on officiating after games. In a tough series it might give you an edge.

    The problem is, the Pacers have a history here. Isiah used to whine about the refs all the time - incessantly. I've never seen such a thing. Heck, he even used the officials as a reason why he started Sam Perkins and Derrick McKey. And the team picked up on it. We all remember Jalen. By the end of Zeke's first season JO and Al Harrington were doing the same thing - worrying more about the refs than their game. And JO and Jax still show that tendency.

    So while there's a time-honored tradition of complaining about calls in the NBA, because, after all the refs suck so bad that they'll let coaches determine how they call games, I'm not sure it's the right thing for the Pacers. Reggie Miller gets a special dispensation BTW - he knows how to do it and he uses non-calls as fuel, the same as he does a hostile crowd.

    Them's my thoughts anyway.
    Good points Rim.

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    It always strikes me the difference between NBA and NFL refs. NFL refs are staggeringly good. Over and over there are plays where a guy is running full speed, his pinky toe of his second foot grazes the inzone, and they make the right call. There are some exceptions though. Pass interference calls are lousy and holding is poorly called. I think the difference with those is that they're both 50/50 calls. When has a good block become a hold? "Hard to say." When is just good downfield defense interference? "I know it when I see it."

    That's why NBA games are called so poorly. We've gotten to a point where practically EVERY call is a 50/50 call. If the rules were a little more black and white, it would be much easier to call. Refs generally get the black and white calls right.

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Ball
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    It always strikes me the difference between NBA and NFL refs. NFL refs are staggeringly good. Over and over there are plays where a guy is running full speed, his pinky toe of his second foot grazes the inzone, and they make the right call. There are some exceptions though. Pass interference calls are lousy and holding is poorly called. I think the difference with those is that they're both 50/50 calls. When has a good block become a hold? "Hard to say." When is just good downfield defense interference? "I know it when I see it."

    That's why NBA games are called so poorly. We've gotten to a point where practically EVERY call is a 50/50 call. If the rules were a little more black and white, it would be much easier to call. Refs generally get the black and white calls right.
    The NBA game is infinitely tougher to officiate than it was even 10 years ago. The players are so athletic it's ridiculous.

    I hate when they miss the obvious calls, or when they give preferential treatment, but it usually evens itself out. Refs are never the reason teams win or lose games.

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by shags
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    The NBA game is infinitely tougher to officiate than it was even 10 years ago. The players are so athletic it's ridiculous.

    I hate when they miss the obvious calls, or when they give preferential treatment, but it usually evens itself out. Refs are never the reason teams win or lose games.
    Uh - they CAN be. It's very rare. My philosophy is don't worry about it - there's nothing you can do and you're better off concentrating on what you have control over.

    When I say very rare, I mean VERY rare. The only game I can put my finger on where I think the refs had a bigger impact than the players is the Game 6 Kings-Lakers game a few years back. But that one was a travesty - though even then the Kings would have won with a few more free throw makes.

    But complaining about it's futile IMO - and generally their suckiness balances out - the problem is in a 7-game series sometimes it isn't long enough to balance out. Still dumb to worry about - there are things teams can do to influence games. Worrying about the officials isn't one of them.

    As for the refs - everyone blows a call now and then. I don't care about that. It's when they totally change how they call a game - start blowing the whistle on touch fouls they ignored earlier in the game, call a palming on the same thing a guard's been doing all night, etc., that I get disgusted with them. It happens a lot - and it did Friday night too.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    The biggest change I foresee in this next game is that Reggie will get fewer calls. I'm not sure he'll have any more called on himself, but he may not get away with the Reggie flops we have all grown to love.
    Reggie didn't shoot any free throws until game 3. I don't think he was getting much respect from the refs at all.
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  20. #20
    MistyRo76
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    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    I don't know about this one. I think that sometimes too much complaining about the refs can have the opposite effect. Refs have egos too. I am quite sure they don't like being called out on national TV. It will be interesting to see how Game 4 is called.

    I just hope that the refs don't change the flow of the game. When too many ticky tacky fouls are called (on either side), they it changes the way the players play the game. I think that by now the players have shown in this series that what happened on 11/19 is in the past. I don't think that we have to worry about another event like that happening again. The ref should recognize that both teams play a very physical style of play and let them play.

    Of course there are so many grey areas that can be called. So the chances of everyone being happy with the officiating is 0. But as long as the refs don't disrupt the flow of the game, I am usually okay with it. And I hate to see one play being blamed for a team's loss. If you take care of buisness throughout the game, one bad call shouldn't make a difference.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Is Rick making a mistake by not complaining about the officiating?

    I think that comments about officiating should be aired in the media as a last result. I think referees would be much more willing to listen to comments from the coaches or players as long as they aren't constant or disrespectful. Reggie can go either way on this, but there are alot of times when you see him working the officials during free throw shots or breaks during the game.

    I think if you have tried every diplomatic way that you can, and you still aren't satisfied, then maybe you go to the press. The risks for doing that are already mentioned in this post though: 1) It could backfire, and 2) Your players could start focusing on the referees too much.

    Carlisle and Bird both feel that the coach should always be the calm in the eye of the storm. If the coach starts losing control with his emotions, then it will carry over to the players. I think Rick has played this perfectly so far. He did actually make his point. Had he not emphatically refuted Brown's statements, then I think that would have been a mistake. He had to react, and I think he did. If he responded by complaining just like Brown did, then I think you would definitely see nothing but a foul fest today. We still might, but I think that Rick comes out of this better than Larry with the officials.
    When you're playing against a stacked deck, compete even harder. Show the world how much you'll fight for the winners circle. If you do, someday the cellophane will crackle off a fresh pack, one that belongs to you, and the cards will be stacked in your favor.
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