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Thread: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

  1. #1
    Harmonica
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    Default What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Who decided that Reg would no longer be our primary scoring option, and why did he (so graciously) accept that role? I've heard all the gobbledy-gook about him stepping aside and letting the young lions take over, but it seems to me to have been a colossal mistake on the Pacers part. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy Kstat's supposition that he's leaving it all on the floor this year. I think that's an absurd notion. Besides, I'm talking about these past 5 years. Should we have ever traded Dale for JO? Or is this just a fluke? You know, two older guys bringing it all out for their last jam together. Am I missing something? Thoughts?

  2. #2
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Late to the party, as always... Have you not been reading Bball's posts on this subject?

    For one thing, Reggie's been injured for the last 2 years. In the first two years, he was still a scorer. So you have this breakdown:

    Year1 - Reggie still a scorer
    Year2 - Reggie still a scorer
    Year3 - Reggie injured... has a terrible year and is a net negative on the court.
    Year4 - Slightly improved, but not much.
    Year5 - This year.

    For another thing, I absolutely believe he's leaving it all on the floor this year. It's not just been a coaching problem... Reggie's not the same player this year that he was in years past.

    And for the record, trading Dale for JO was a brilliant trade.
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  3. #3
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Trading for JO... fine...
    Losing Dale Davis... not fine...

    I look at it like trading the engine out of your car for a nice set of shiny wheels. The car sure looks nice now... but it has lost some seriously important part to get there.

    I would have preferred the trade happen some other way. I've always liked the idea of never making the AD/Bender trade and trading AD for JO. Trading Smits would've made me ever more happy

    -Bball
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  4. #4
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Late to the party, as always... Have you not been reading Bball's posts on this subject?

    For one thing, Reggie's been injured for the last 2 years. In the first two years, he was still a scorer. So you have this breakdown:

    Year1 - Reggie still a scorer
    Year2 - Reggie still a scorer
    Year3 - Reggie injured... has a terrible year and is a net negative on the court.
    Year4 - Slightly improved, but not much.
    Year5 - This year.

    For another thing, I absolutely believe he's leaving it all on the floor this year. It's not just been a coaching problem... Reggie's not the same player this year that he was in years past.

    And for the record, trading Dale for JO was a brilliant trade.
    I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time to scour every thread. Nor does it interest me to do so, although I like reading Bball's posts. We exchange PMs quite frequently.

    The injuries are a given. I understand that. I'm talking about an overall pervasive attitude within the organization. And explain this "leaving it all on the floor" BS. In real (human) terms versus lofty platitudes.

  5. #5
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Late to the party, as always... Have you not been reading Bball's posts on this subject?
    I've spoken to my feelings that the team shouldn't have been broken up... I've talked about the team riding Reggie's horse until he ran out of gas rather than taking a pre-emptive strike (I don't like the idea of taking apart a championship contender to build a championship contender). I've spoken to my feelings that it was largely a knee jerk reaction to the fluke loss to the Knicks in 99 that set the wheels in motion and by the time the team reached the Finals in 2000 the momentum was already in play and DW found himself in an awkward position.

    But Harmonica is posing this question/topic from another angle:
    "Who decided that Reg would no longer be our primary scoring option, and why did he (so graciously) accept that role?"

    We know Reggie didn't want the Finals team broken up. I have no idea what his feelings were about the AD/Bender debacle. Considering his gesture at the retirement ceremony I can guess he would've been fine with it not happening (since he brought Dale and AD out together with him).

    But Reggie has been a professional here. So if his bosses (DW?) told him they felt the 2000 team was used up and wanted to transition the team for the future maybe he either believed it, or bit his tongue and accepted it. If so, his role as force feeding JO the ball AND the reins of the team make sense.

    Maybe he bought into JO maturing into a leader. Maybe he felt he was doing more to win games down the road even if it meant sacrificing some games in the near future (IOW, let JO take his lumps and learn by failure in some cases rather than Reggie take over himself and save the team).

    The problem with all that is, Reggie had already shown the ability to carry the team. By constantly deferring to JO he stunted his own game because that made it harder for him to find his own rhythm. It also made it awkward for the team who always looked for Reggie to save them. So here he'd be at the waning moments of a game, barely looking at the basket all game, and now expected to hit an important basket.

    In retrospect, if Reggie had this all along IMHO he should've been bringing it. Let JO be a complimentary player and learn from Reggie. Let Reggie do what he does best... bring some swagger and that 'feeling' that we're never out of a game and that he could explode at any minute.

    I really really really hope the issue isn't one of this constant deferring to him hasn't in reality been pandering to him. I hope we don't have, or haven't created a primadonna.

    And my feelings on Dale should be well known... His importance to the team was greatly underestimated I believe.

    Another question now comes to mind: Does whoever decided Reggie should defer to JO, and that Dale was expendable to get JO, have any second thoughts?

    -Bball
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    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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  6. #6
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Thanks Bball.

    Another thing: Didn't it seem that JO and the organization were all too eager to anoint him crown prince and heir apparent to Reggie? Reggie wasn't in decline after the 2000 finals! It seems that a weird psychology took place somewhere along the way. Between JO and management. Reggie and JO. And most importantly, Reggie and management.

  7. #7

    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Dale Davis is one of those guys that shovels the chit, you can only have so much finesse, you got to have someone that drives the truck.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

  8. #8
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Year1 - Reggie still a scorer
    Year2 - Reggie still a scorer
    Year3 - Reggie injured... has a terrible year and is a net negative on the court.
    Year4 - Slightly improved, but not much.
    Year5 - This year.
    There was a graphic I saw last night that tells the story.

    Reggie's Playoff scoring:
    2001 - 31 points/game
    2002 - 23 ppg
    2003 - 9 ppg
    2004 - 10 ppg

    What happened between '02 and '03. We already had made the Chicago trade before then, and JO had won MIP. Nope, the WBC happened.
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  9. #9
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Late to the party, as always... Have you not been reading Bball's posts on this subject?
    You mean "No more legacy starts" really means "Reggie should be the focal point of the offense"?.......
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  10. #10
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

    First I get Bulletproof asking if maybe the Dale for J.O. trade was a mistake, then I see the new guy up above asking if the 00 team could have been a dynasty.

    I don't know whether to sit back laugh & say "I told you so" or go find the nearest high building & jump off of it.

    Bball & myself have been fighting this fight for 5 years. I was a virtual pariah over on the star board because of my feelings on this subject & it wasn't just the Dale for J.O. part. I objected to the entire thing.

    So this a.m. I am feeling faint & I don't know if it's because people are now asking the same thing I've been asking for years or if it's because bulletproof just questioned Donnie Walsh?


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    Member indytoad's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Thanks Bball.

    Another thing: Didn't it seem that JO and the organization were all too eager to anoint him crown prince and heir apparent to Reggie? Reggie wasn't in decline after the 2000 finals! It seems that a weird psychology took place somewhere along the way. Between JO and management. Reggie and JO. And most importantly, Reggie and management.
    Don't forget Jalen Rose was heir apparent for a couple years there as well. Or maybe that's just better left forgotten.

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    Member Doug in CO's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Um - Reggie can be brilliant - he can also be, either at 39 or 29, inconsistent as most shooters (not scorers) are apt to be. Let's see if we win more than a game or two in this series before we cry over perceived mistakes.
    Heywoode says... work hard man.

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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    For the past five years, I've been thinking "I sure miss Indiana and the NBA playoffs during the spring."

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
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  14. #14
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

    First I get Bulletproof asking if maybe the Dale for J.O. trade was a mistake, then I see the new guy up above asking if the 00 team could have been a dynasty.

    I don't know whether to sit back laugh & say "I told you so" or go find the nearest high building & jump off of it.

    Bball & myself have been fighting this fight for 5 years. I was a virtual pariah over on the star board because of my feelings on this subject & it wasn't just the Dale for J.O. part. I objected to the entire thing.

    So this a.m. I am feeling faint & I don't know if it's because people are now asking the same thing I've been asking for years or if it's because bulletproof just questioned Donnie Walsh?
    Hey man, no one is above reproach. But I do believe some changes were needed after the '00 season, so I'm simply questioning the shift in mindset. And who is this bulletproof guy you keep referring to?

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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by indytoad
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    Don't forget Jalen Rose was heir apparent for a couple years there as well. Or maybe that's just better left forgotten.

    IndyToad
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    Reggie was already deferring the the 'heir apparent' during the 1999 and 1999/2000 seasons, so by that summer it was already Jalen's team.

    Which will only add fuel to the fire since many of you believe Jalen was unworthy of that status. But JO was taking that responsibility of being 'the man' away from Jalen; Reggie had already passed that torch.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #16
    Member PHC Fan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    Hey man, no one is above reproach. But I do believe some changes were needed after the '00 season, so I'm simply questioning the shift in mindset. And who is this bulletproof guy you keep referring to?
    Will the REAL bulletproof please stand up?

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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Reggie was already deferring the the 'heir apparent' during the 1999 and 1999/2000 seasons, so by that summer it was already Jalen's team.

    Which will only add fuel to the fire since many of you believe Jalen was unworthy of that status. But JO was taking that responsibility of being 'the man' away from Jalen; Reggie had already passed that torch.
    I still shake my head at the absurdity of the idea of our team being labeled "Jalen's team".

    During the 90's, Reggie consistently referred to our team as being Rik's team.

  18. #18
    Member Doug in CO's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Can someone tell me why bulletproof changed his name to Harmonica?
    Heywoode says... work hard man.

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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    There was a graphic I saw last night that tells the story.

    Reggie's Playoff scoring:
    2001 - 31 points/game
    2002 - 23 ppg
    2003 - 9 ppg
    2004 - 10 ppg

    What happened between '02 and '03. We already had made the Chicago trade before then, and JO had won MIP. Nope, the WBC happened.
    That's the real answer right there. Before the 2002-03 season Reggie was playing at a comparable level as he is now.

    At the beginning of the '03 season Reg had the ankle injury and then saw the Pacers get off to a red hot start in Isiah's last year. When he came back he was both slower and had very little lift on his jumper - hence, the season we'd all like to forget.

    Reggie finally got the ankle surgery that he needed before the '04 season. Unfortuneately, he was very limited in his off-the-ball movement so he deferred to J.O. even more.

    This year, I think that Reggie was primed to have a good season because he had the full offseason to train and get sufficient rest. It was the first time in 3 years that he wasn't injured going into the offseason. Then the broken hand sidelined him and we all know what happened to the team on Nov. 19th.

    It wasn't until J.O. came back from suspension and then went down again with the injury that Reggie (and the team) went back to calling his number on offense. Getting Dale back certainly helped.

    IOW, it's not that Reggie has just been deferring without good reason. He just couldn't play up to this level because of the ankle injury.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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  20. #20
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace
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    IOW, it's not that Reggie has just been deferring without good reason. He just couldn't play up to this level because of the ankle injury.
    You tell me that and then I have to say this:
    Then he doesn't start... no legacy starts. Whether it is age, the ankle(s), or a combination if he wasn't able to play like we've seen this last season sans Jermaine then he shouldn't be the starter.

    I don't like the idea of him deferring to be deferring (especially to the degree we've seen) but IF it was because he had to do it physically then he shouldn't have been on the court with the minutes he got nor should he have been getting legacy starts and minutes.

    But I now am firmly in the camp that believes he could've done more so Harmonica's question is a valid one IMHO.

    -Bball
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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Reggie deferred. You don't have to believe anyone's opinion, just ask Reggie himself. He has said this on several occasions. The opinion of others comes in when you decide if he deferred too much.

  22. #22
    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    Reggie deferred. You don't have to believe anyone's opinion, just ask Reggie himself. He has said this on several occasions. The opinion of others comes in when you decide if he deferred too much.

    I don't think anyone is denying that he deferred to others (at least I'm not). I think the reasons why he deferred is what's up for debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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  23. #23
    teY dennaB toN
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    I defer the deferred question on deferral to Hick's deferred post above.

  24. #24

    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    There are many reasons I don't believe that the 00 team was broken up too soon or would be competitive still today. Here's ten:

    Dale wanted to be traded and I can't imagine him being good for team chemistry at that point.

    Also I don't believe that switching Antonio for Smits would have worked because we really did need a big man who could score.

    God told Jax to leave how could Donnie gone over God's head.

    Reggie + Dale today isn't close to a championship caliber team.

    Reggie for the last two season has been hurt and could not have played how he is playing this year.

    Dale and Reggie haven't played a full year this year so they are still fresher than they would have been under normal circumstances.

    JO is already a more dominate player day in and day out than Reggie ever was.

    Last year's team was better than the 90's teams ever were.

    How old was Mark Jackson? Travis "journey man" Best was finishing games for him.

    And finally Jonathan Bender would not have been able to developed into the player he is today playing behind those veterns.

  25. #25
    CA Pacer Fan A-Train's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have we been thinking for the past 5 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    Reggie deferred. You don't have to believe anyone's opinion, just ask Reggie himself. He has said this on several occasions. The opinion of others comes in when you decide if he deferred too much.
    And here's where we get to the crux of the whole Reggie miller saga....

    Reggie has always been one who is willing to defer. He's never been comfortable being "the guy". As has been mentioned, he's always been more than willing to say it's "Rik's team", or "Jalen's team", or "Jermaine's team".

    And that, to be perfectly honest, has been Reggie's downfall over the course of his career (as much as you can attribute a "downfall" to his career).

    Could he have played at a higher level over the course of his career? He makes you wonder every time he decides to raise his game for stretches during the season and in the playoffs. But, his mindset doesn't allow him to step up all the time. He's always had a feeling that he was better off deferring to someone esle.

    Would Jordan ever defer to anyone else? Did Magic? Did Bird? Of course not. They were THE GUYS each and every night. Lucky for them, they had guys like Pippen, Worthy and McHale to play alongside them. Reggie would have been a terrific 2nd fiddle to a Superstar. His ability to step up and be HUGE on occasion would have complimented a Superstar who was bringing it huge every night.

    While I believe his lack of productivity the last two years is attributed (mainly) to his ankle injuries, I don't think his decision to defer to anyone is anyone's fault but his own. He welcomed the chance to defer.

    Oh, and by the way, I totally buy into Bball's theory that he's emptying the gas tank. He's always been one to pace himself during the season (another pet peeve of mine) which explains his 3 point per game increase during the post season. He knows he doesn't have much time left, so he's bringing it hard. And he's great when he brings it hard.

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