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Thread: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

  1. #501
    2017-18 Starting PG? BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Maybe that's a problem with their own lack of fortitude.

    Dozens of teams went up against bird's celtics or magic's Lakers hopelessly outmatched. Most of them didn't quit and the ones that did received a new coach and new players the following season.

    But since the NBA endorses quitting under pressure now, the loser mentality of whining has taken over.

    Demar DeRozan's loser mentality of "we would have won if we had lebron on our team" is pathetic. Expect him to be the next guy to jump ship for greener pastures.
    It is pathetic. It's a byproduct of what's going on in the NBA today. The players themselves know it's not real.

    But the truth is, DeRozan doesn't need LeBron to win. Golden State with Durant, Curry, Thompson, Iggy and Green will be too much for the Cavs. DeRozan just needs to join GS.
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    It is pathetic. It's a byproduct of what's going on in the NBA today. The players themselves know it's not real.

    But the truth is, DeRozan doesn't need LeBron to win. Golden State with Durant, Curry, Thompson, Iggy and Green will be too much for the Cavs. DeRozan just needs to join GS.
    Regardless, that's not a problem with the NBA, it's a problem with the players.

    In any case, golden state wouldn't have the cap room to sign DeRozan. They shouldn't have had the cap room for Durant to begin with.

    If there's a problem with the NBA, it's the GMs that encourage tanking and the coaches that allow it to happen.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  3. #503
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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Lebron's killed another well constructed and thought out effort to beat him. it's the same stuff. is our point good enough? we need a real 2nd option. we need shooters. I appreciate where the coach took us but we just need a new approach.

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Something not talked about enough with the KD thing is the fact that OKC didnt do nearly enough to entice him to stay.

    They thought pairing him with Russ was enough. Once they choked away that 3-1 lead, the writing was on the wall (in retrospect of course)
    Oklahoma City built a team that was good enough to go up 3-1 on GS. At some point, it's on the players to execute. They had a good enough team to make the Finals last year. It's mostly on KD and Westbrook for not getting the job done. How is it Presti's fault that they blew the series?

    They made the WCF's every year since 2011 when both were healthy. Sure they made some questionable moves at times, but overall they absolutely built a team that was good enough to make the Finals.

    I mean sure, Presti wasn't capable of building a team that was capable of winning 73 games and a title without Durant, but he built a team that was good enough to go toe to toe in a series against GS.

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Regardless, that's not a problem with the NBA, it's a problem with the players.

    In any case, golden state wouldn't have the cap room to sign DeRozan. They shouldn't have had the cap room for Durant to begin with.

    If there's a problem with the NBA, it's the GMs that encourage tanking and the coaches that allow it to happen.
    And therin lies the problem.
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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    This year is an extreme example but the NBA has done just fine with a predictable group of champions since the 80's.

    The only thing that makes it less fun for me is the gutless opponents that refuse to go at the Cavs and warriors with everything they have. At least the Celtics, Lakers, bulls etc. were forced to work hard for their wins. This isn't fun to watch but it isn't because the top teams are too good. It's because professional pride has been de-emphasized for everyone else.

    The act of getting out of the way rather than risk being dunked on has been turned into a metaphor for all of NBA culture. Deal with that before tearing down the teams that play the right way.
    That's the thing, though. I believe that the Pacers, at least, went at Cleveland with everything they had. And they got swept for their troubles.

    The talent level is just that far out of whack now. Cleveland and Golden State are essentially All-Star teams.
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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    That's the thing, though. I believe that the Pacers, at least, went at Cleveland with everything they had. And they got swept for their troubles.

    The talent level is just that far out of whack now. Cleveland and Golden State are essentially All-Star teams.
    The Pacers were a #7 seed. 7-seeds have been getting swept since 7 seeds existed.

    I want competitive 1-4 and 2-3 second round series. Nobody expects the 1-8 or 2-7 series to be nail biters or cares if they end in sweeps.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The Pacers were a #7 seed. 7-seeds have been getting swept since 7 seeds existed.

    I want competitive 1-4 and 2-3 second round series. Nobody expects the 1-8 or 2-7 series to be nail biters or cares if they end in sweeps.
    Honestly, the #3-8 seeds in the East were virtually interchangeable this season. If you combined the best players from those teams, you might have a team capable of competing with Cleveland.
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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Oklahoma City built a team that was good enough to go up 3-1 on GS. At some point, it's on the players to execute. They had a good enough team to make the Finals last year. It's mostly on KD and Westbrook for not getting the job done. How is it Presti's fault that they blew the series?

    They made the WCF's every year since 2011 when both were healthy. Sure they made some questionable moves at times, but overall they absolutely built a team that was good enough to make the Finals.

    I mean sure, Presti wasn't capable of building a team that was capable of winning 73 games and a title without Durant, but he built a team that was good enough to go toe to toe in a series against GS.


    I've always said my issue with KD was not him leaving OKC. Oklahoma City and its denizens would probably envy what Indianapolis and a few other smaller markets have going for them. Oklahoma in general will never be a destination for players or most people for that matter. But to leave for GSW, the team that just beat you. That will NEVER stop being the most awkward decision to top all, awkward decisions.

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Honestly, the #3-8 seeds in the East were virtually interchangeable this season. If you combined the best players from those teams, you might have a team capable of competing with Cleveland.
    Wall/Lowry take your pick
    Butler
    George
    Millsap
    RoLo?

    I'd feel pretty comfortable betting on a championship.

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    If that was Toronto's well-constructed effort to beat Lebron, I feel bad for Raptors fans. At least the Pacers well-constructed effort to beat Lebron took him to 7 games at one point.

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichi View Post
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    Wall/Lowry take your pick
    Butler
    George
    Millsap
    RoLo?

    I'd feel pretty comfortable betting on a championship.
    Giannis for Millsap. And yeah that team would beat the Cavs fairly easily I think. But I think he was just using sarcasm to make a point.

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by idioteque View Post
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    If that was Toronto's well-constructed effort to beat Lebron, I feel bad for Raptors fans. At least the Pacers well-constructed effort to beat Lebron took him to 7 games at one point.
    Did anyone ever take the Raptors seriously?

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by BornIndy07 View Post
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    Did anyone ever take the Raptors seriously?
    Only cRaptors fans.
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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by BornIndy07 View Post
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    Did anyone ever take the Raptors seriously?
    Well, I thought they had a shot of winning at least one game and/or being competitive.


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    This year is an extreme example but the NBA has done just fine with a predictable group of champions since the 80's.

    The only thing that makes it less fun for me is the gutless opponents that refuse to go at the Cavs and warriors with everything they have. At least the Celtics, Lakers, bulls etc. were forced to work hard for their wins. This isn't fun to watch but it isn't because the top teams are too good. It's because professional pride has been de-emphasized for everyone else.

    The act of getting out of the way rather than risk being dunked on has been turned into a metaphor for all of NBA culture. Deal with that before tearing down the teams that play the right way.
    The difference in the game, between now and the days of the Celtics/Lakers/Bulls, (I'm assuming you mean the 80's and early 90's) is the game was WAY more physical back then. The level of physical play could even the field a little bit. If you weren't as skilled you had better play that man more physical back then. Today's game is called much cleaner with a lot less contact. Hard fouls are flagrant 1's and 2's and lead to player ejection and suspensions. I'm not sure if the Pistons (Laimbeer, Mahorn, Rodman...)would have won a championship back then if it was called the same way as todays games are. They were workhorses but not what you would call highly skilled well rounded players. The Celtics probably don't beat the Lakers all three of those times either. Los Angeles was the most skilled group of athletes in those days.

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  25. #517
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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Thankfully skill matters more than enforcers these days.

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    Thankfully skill matters more than enforcers these days.
    Fully disagree... I love "skill-less" blue-collar work ethic players ready to bruise you. Skill, especially when it is combined with softness and looking for protection refs, is nauseating.

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    If I was an NBA coach and I was giving a press conference on the eve of series with f ex Cleveland, I would say something on these lines :

    "This is why our bench players have been taking MMA lessons whole season. Lebron & Kyrie are better to grow a pair eyes on their back and be wary on every step they take on the court. I'll be disappointed if their careers will go on past Game Three of this series. We will be there to take them down for keeps and ever!"

    ...I would not necessarily go for such tactics, but it would be a nice psychological ploy.

  28. #520

    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    To a lot of people sure to me I at least cared who won that matchup.

    http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/05/10/...akers-celtics/

    Tyronn Lue: Appeal of Cavaliers-Warriors III mirrors Lakers-Celtics

    INDEPENDENCE, Ohio (AP) As the sports world salivates while awaiting a seemingly inevitable NBA Finals, Cavaliers coach Tryonn Lue is keeping his undefeated team focused on its next unknown opponent.

    And keeping an eye on the Warriors.

    Im always watching, Lue said. Im watching everybody.

    But maybe that Northern California team a little more.

    With both Cleveland and Golden State at 8-0 in these playoffs and on a collision course toward a potential third straight Finals, there has been heated debate about whether Cavaliers-Warriors 3.0 is good for basketball.

    Its the first time two teams have swept through the first two rounds, and with the way the Cavaliers and Warriors are playing, it doesnt seem to matter who theyll face once the conference finals get going.

    Lue isnt overlooking Boston or Washington, one of which will play Cleveland next, but he isnt buying into this notion that a third helping of Cavaliers vs. Warriors is somehow a hoops overindulgence.

    I think a lot of people wanted to see Boston and the Lakers back in the day, he said. I think nowadays, a lot of people want to see Golden State-Cavs. And its not a problem. Right now, its two of the teams playing some of the best basketball. So, two of the teams that have been in back-to-back Finals, so, why not?

    Why not want to see it again?

    Draymond Green has no objection.

    I know as a basketball fan thats what Id want to see, Golden States loquacious forward said. You hear all the talk about it. You know its there, but weve got four more games to win before we can reach an NBA Finals. Weve got to stay locked in and focused on the now. If that happens, it happens. I know weve got to take care of our business and Im sure they think the same way.

    Following two days off after sweeping Toronto in the second round, the Cavaliers got back in the gym on Wednesday to work on some defensive schemes and push through conditioning drills while DJ Steph Floss, who spins records during games at Quicken Loans Arena, filled the facility with thumping music.

    Its the same routine the Cavs have used while going 16-0 in the first two rounds the past two years, so Lue isnt changing much.

    Were just sticking to it and I think with the DJ, it just gives them a different look and it gives guys motivation to work out to the music and just something different, he said. I dont know, its worked the last couple years for us, so were just going to continue to do it.

    Winning has worked as well, and after staggering to the finish line in the regular season, LeBron James and the Cavaliers have taken their game to another level.

    James, who will be appearing in his ninth Eastern Conference finals in 14 years next week, has never been better. Hes averaging 34.4 points up 8.1 over last year with 9.0 rebounds and 7.1 assists in eight games. The extra rest between series has kept him fresh, and the 32-year-old seems extra motivated following a regular season in which Russell Westbrook and James Harden dominated the MVP conversation because of the triple-double exploits.

    James has found another gear in the postseason and Lue believes the Cavaliers are capable of shifting even higher if thats possible.

    We definitely can get better, he said. We know that.

    The Warriors have been more impressive in rolling over Portland and Utah. In its first postseason with Kevin Durant on board, Golden State is winning by an average of 16.5 points per game nearly 7 points higher than Cleveland and on pace to be the highest point differential in league history.

    From the moment last summer when Durant left Oklahoma City and joined Green, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson and Co., its been assumed they would cross paths with the Cavaliers this June.

    And, as Lue said, whats so bad about that?

    I think last year (the Finals) had some of the best ratings, I think, in NBA history, he said. I think now with them adding Durant and the way theyre playing, the way were playing, it can be even higher.

  29. #521
    2017-18 Starting PG? BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    I don't care for Durant's decision to play with golden state but I don't think it's right to tell him he can't sign with anyone he wants as a free agent.
    Doesn't this get right to the root of the issue? Some people want players to be able to work for any team they WANT to work for? Seems fair doesn't it? Seems right, actually. That is how the rest of the world works. We choose who we want to work for and there are a lot of reasons why that is appropriate outside the NBA.

    But most jobs are not like the NBA. Most companies are not interconnected like that. The NBA is a group of franchises that are tightly woven together. If one franchise is doing well, and because of that, another will not do as well. That is NOT true in a typical business. It is a basketball league that happens to have franchises and employees. You cannot compare this to the real world in terms of the fairness of allowing mobility.

    The product the consumer is buying from other types of businesses is never impacted to this extent in a normal business. A HUGE part of the competition in the NBA and therefore the product is the ability of franchises to distinguish themselves with smart drafting and smart trading. You entirely upend that aspect of the game by allowing players to choose where they want to play. You basically destroy competition allowing super teams and the integrity of the league is destroyed.

    Still, it can be entertaining. But it is so much less interesting and certainly not fair competition.

    The reality is, if we don't really care about competition, just do away with the draft entirely. Just let guys coming out of high school or college play for whatever team they want to. Why have this charade that there is any fairness at all? I would actually support that much more than the current state of fakeness where the league pretends that it is a competitive league.
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Doesn't this get right to the root of the issue? Some people want players to be able to work for any team they WANT to work for? Seems fair doesn't it? Seems right, actually. That is how the rest of the world works. We choose who we want to work for and there are a lot of reasons why that is appropriate outside the NBA.

    But most jobs are not like the NBA. Most companies are not interconnected like that. The NBA is a group of franchises that are tightly woven together. If one franchise is doing well, and because of that, another will not do as well. That is NOT true in a typical business. It is a basketball league that happens to have franchises and employees. You cannot compare this to the real world in terms of the fairness of allowing mobility.

    The product the consumer is buying from other types of businesses is never impacted to this extent in a normal business. A HUGE part of the competition in the NBA and therefore the product is the ability of franchises to distinguish themselves with smart drafting and smart trading. You entirely upend that aspect of the game by allowing players to choose where they want to play. You basically destroy competition allowing super teams and the integrity of the league is destroyed.

    Still, it can be entertaining. But it is so much less interesting and certainly not fair competition.

    The reality is, if we don't really care about competition, just do away with the draft entirely. Just let guys coming out of high school or college play for whatever team they want to. Why have this charade that there is any fairness at all? I would actually support that much more than the current state of fakeness where the league pretends that it is a competitive league.
    That's your first mistake...expecting all the teams to be competitive. Basketball is a sport. Someone has to be bad, and someone has to be good. That's just the facts of life. Second, you don't watch every single game in NBA, so I'm sure why you care that much about "fairness".


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Only way to really even up teams is to set a hard cap. Have contracts that can be negotiated each year +/- 20. Player performs above expectations, they can get a raise. Under perform, pay cut. If such player doesn't agree to a pay cut, the team can either keep the player at their current salary or cut them. The paycut must be offered first. Big Al would be a good example. He under performed and was out of shape, he'd be offered the max reduction.

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    You basically destroy competition allowing super teams and the integrity of the league is destroyed.
    This is what I don't get...

    Every year there's only 3-4 teams that are expected to win the championship. Then, you have several teams that are 1 all-star player, or 1 borderline all-star and 1 exceptional role player from being contenders. Then, the rest is basically crap. It has always been that way since the inception of NBA.

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    Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs Round 2: (2) Cleveland vs. (3) Toronto

    I still dont see why the answer to this "issue" within the league isn't simply challenging teams and franchises to do and be better.

    Put together your own roster that can compete. Stop making dumb trades and signings.

    Lebron existing isn't fair. He's that good. But the same could be said for other super a dupers stars that came before him. The onus should be on the rest of the league to improve, no on limiting the ways that he and other star players can excel.

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