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Thread: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

  1. #101
    let's do better Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Bird doesn't draft by himself. I'm just sayin. He's not flying all over the world personally scouting guys. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve any credit or anything, but he sure as **** doesn't deserve all of it. Traditionally this franchise has always drafted fairly well.

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  3. #102
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Hold it right there. No one in this forum has ever doubted Bird's drafting ability. I'm probably Bird's biggest critic on this forum and I always credit him for his drafting ability. He can draft like no one else. The problem is with his ability to put together a roster that makes freaking sense. He fell in love with "pace and space" after our ECF squad collapsed and has put together crappy rosters for two seasons in a row. He absolutely deserves all the blame he's getting.
    I think you hit on this here, and it's what I think is Larry's biggest weakness - he has no consistent vision for what he wants this team to be. He moved from "smash mouth" to "pace and space" apparently, and then subsequently signs Monta Ellis (who creates no space) and Al Jefferson (who has a turtle like pace at this point). It's like he just sees relatively name brand players who are willing to come here and signs them, fit be damned. And I'm sorry, there's no NBA team out there who wants players who aren't consistent three point shooters AND can't play perimeter defense (Ellis) and have no ability to be disruptive around the basket at all (Jefferson). Bird picked up two guys who the league has basically passed by. Stuckey was somewhat better than Monta, but he had many of the same kind of weaknesses.

    And of course, the Vogel firing was idiotic. I didn't necessarily mind firing Vogel per say, but my reservation was always well who do you replace him with - and I think that concern was pretty justified when you look at this team now.

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  5. #103

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Bird doesn't draft by himself. I'm just sayin. He's not flying all over the world personally scouting guys. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve any credit or anything, but he sure as **** doesn't deserve all of it. Traditionally this franchise has always drafted fairly well.
    Also doesn't deserve all the blame for the roster being "crappy" either and people are quick to point to that. Hey, fire Bird. See what happens to this team. I'm willing to bet we'd have a bigger downfall than what we're going through now.

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  7. #104
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    Also doesn't deserve all the blame for the roster being "crappy" either and people are quick to point to that. Hey, fire Bird. See what happens to this team. I'm willing to bet we'd have a bigger downfall than what we're going through now.
    Who else deserves blame for the roster being crappy?

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    The GM who makes final decisions isn't responsible for the ****** team he decided on.

    Larry bird is back to being the adult Boomer since he's obviously not in charge.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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  11. #106
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    The summer of 16 solidified it for me. Putting Jefferson and Jeff Teague on this team...together was stupid. Not releasing Stuckey sooner was stupid. Not getting a rebounder on this team was stupid.

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  13. #107
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Bird's flaw has always been that he sees a team as a pile of coins rather than a jigsaw puzzle. If you have the most valuable coins you should win, even if they all play the same position and the exact same way. He also bases value on speculative collector value rather than face value. Sometimes, that penny turns out to be a fake.
    BillS

    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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  15. #108
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    I think LB took a good shot.
    If there was any way to come up with a contender so quickly after losing West, Hibb, and Lance...I didn't see it.
    Had Solo been worth his feed to start last season and one of Xmas, Al Jeff, Seraphin became a consistent rotation big by now, we would be a good team already.
    My biggest regret was the turn to small ball... (sucks). But we're not so invested in that that we can not flip that around pretty easily.
    I knew we were going to blow this year. Were puny. Were also a few pieces short, no matter who runs the show.
    Last edited by solid; 04-21-2017 at 09:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Bird's flaw has always been that he sees a team as a pile of coins rather than a jigsaw puzzle. If you have the most valuable coins you should win, even if they all play the same position and the exact same way. He also bases value on speculative collector value rather than face value. Sometimes, that penny turns out to be a fake.
    Wow. That's a fantastic analogy.

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  18. #110
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    It's a cool idea, but It doesn't apply very well here.
    He's got bigs, smalls, young, old, a floor general, a shooter, prospects, a spark plug, and a star.
    That's a reasonable collection. Some of those guys just need to grade out.
    Last edited by solid; 04-21-2017 at 10:28 AM.

  19. #111

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    I know I'm not saying anything new, so apologies in advance, but I can't get over how amorphous the culture and identity of this team is.

    I'll give Bird credit for the roster that took the Heat to 7. That Blue Collar, Gold Swagger team A) felt like it had its own unique identity, B) felt like it cared about representing Indiana in a similar way as Reggie's Knick-killers and C) seemed like it had healthy camaraderie between its players (until it didn't, of course).

    The reason I haven't been posting at all during this season is just that I've never really bought into this team to begin with. Not trying to be Johnny Come Lately on that. Don't think they're bad, or bad guys. But like Nate McMillan, they're just kinda there. It's Paul George and a Myles Turner you wish could jump in a time machine and ... guys, really. Guys from a lot of different places that fit a lot of different things, but not one cohesive system. Guys who are probably cool playing anywhere with anyone, as long as they get paid.

    I think, at some point, there's a price to be paid from jumping between your Thad Youngs and Chris Copelands and Jordan Hills and CJ Watsons and Evan Turners and Luis Scolas all the damn time. Bird just doesn't have -- as many of you have pointed out -- a consistent vision. He wants a Band-Aid here, or a Band-Aid there, but they're never being used for the same operation, if that makes sense. So you end up with this Frankenstein cadaver of a roster which pretty much lives and dies on the electricity of Paul George in the end.

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  21. #112
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by solid View Post
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    Were puny.

    No more micro players please unless you replace one with a much better one. Young,Monta,Teague,Brooks in the guard slots.
    At PF we have Niang, and Thad.
    Niang is way too slow and short for the roll he would be asked to play and Thad at least can defend some and score but he is still undersized.
    {o,o}
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  23. #113

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Who else deserves blame for the roster being crappy?
    I don't think the roster is crappy- I phrasing it the way this board is phrasing it. But if you're not giving Bird credit for drafting, you can't give him all the blame for the roster you are *****ing about. It's the same exact thing. He's not single handedly making these decisions in either case.

    Anyways- I think it's hilarious we dominated a game until we stopped playing aggressive and immediately after said game people say "this roster is just put together horribly". Haha. Yep....that's what that game proved...makes sense.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    I don't think the roster is crappy- I phrasing it the way this board is phrasing it. But if you're not giving Bird credit for drafting, you can't give him all the blame for the roster you are *****ing about. It's the same exact thing. He's not single handedly making these decisions in either case.

    Anyways- I think it's hilarious we dominated a game until we stopped playing aggressive and immediately after said game people say "this roster is just put together horribly". Haha. Yep....that's what that game proved...makes sense.
    Barely being a .500 team in the EC without much in terms of future prospects screams terrible roster to me. The fact that the team can play at a high level when EVERYTHING is clicking has no bearing on the fact that the team is mediocre in every sense of the word

    The pacers are in no mans land right now. A bunch of over priced vets thats only good enough for a mid to lower seed in the EC.

    Could it change? Sure. But thats the reality of the roster currently.

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  26. #115
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Barely being a .500 team in the EC without much in terms of future prospects screams terrible roster to me. The fact that the team can play at a high level when EVERYTHING is clicking has no bearing on the fact that the team is mediocre in every sense of the word

    The pacers are in no mans land right now. A bunch of over priced vets thats only good enough for a mid to lower seed in the EC.

    Could it change? Sure. But thats the reality of the roster currently.
    How many playoff teams have a better prospect than Turner?

    I think this team isn't very good, but could definitely be a contender if the right moves are made in offseason. A season of Lance after he spends a summer here is a gamechanger as well.
    Last edited by freddielewis14; 04-21-2017 at 11:36 AM.

  27. #116
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by solid View Post
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    It's a cool idea, but It doesn't apply very well here.
    He's got bigs, smalls, young, old, a floor general, a shooter, prospects, a spark plug, and a star.
    That's a reasonable collection. Some of those guys just need to grade out.
    He got a bunch of different coins, sure, but can they add up to a dollar?
    BillS

    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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  29. #117

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    I don't think the roster is crappy- I phrasing it the way this board is phrasing it. But if you're not giving Bird credit for drafting, you can't give him all the blame for the roster you are *****ing about. It's the same exact thing. He's not single handedly making these decisions in either case.

    Anyways- I think it's hilarious we dominated a game until we stopped playing aggressive and immediately after said game people say "this roster is just put together horribly". Haha. Yep....that's what that game proved...makes sense.
    IMO, the game proved an inconsistent team that has refused to defend all year long is still an inconsistent team that refuses to defend. It's not aggression vs non-aggression. It's players regressing to an expected mean.

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  31. #118
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Our roster isn't total garbage, though it is a bit unbalanced. We have some talent. But it's not on par with super teams like Cleveland and Golden State. Not to mention that the coaching is suspect.

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  33. #119

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Barely being a .500 team in the EC without much in terms of future prospects screams terrible roster to me. The fact that the team can play at a high level when EVERYTHING is clicking has no bearing on the fact that the team is mediocre in every sense of the word

    The pacers are in no mans land right now. A bunch of over priced vets thats only good enough for a mid to lower seed in the EC.

    Could it change? Sure. But thats the reality of the roster currently.
    I'm fine with people feeling that way on the season. But the alignment of what triggered this outcry of Fire Bird doesn't make sense at all. And you can't look across the East and tell me there is no way we can make the ECF next year even if we made 0 changes. Lance back has brought energy. This team with energy has been good for the most part. I want to make changes but I definitely disagree with people who think we're way off.

    And to me that's the funny part. If we're playing the Celtics or Raptors right now there is a very good chance we'd be up 2-1 and everyone would be saying exactly what I am saying.

    Also our vets are still in the bottom half of their prime: PG, Lance, Teague. And our 21 year old is looked at as a top 10 player from the past two draft classes by almost any outlet- most have him top 5.

    So I wouldn't say we're in "no mans land"

  34. #120

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
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    IMO, the game proved an inconsistent team that has refused to defend all year long is still an inconsistent team that refuses to defend. It's not aggression vs non-aggression. It's players regressing to an expected mean.
    Nah I don't buy that from that specific game. We started purposely getting into our offense later in the 3rd quarter. We don't start doing that so early then we get better shots in the 3rd and we win. Defense is a problem though overall- I agree with that.

  35. #121
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    How many playoff teams have a better prospect than Turner?

    I think this team isn't very good, but could definitely be a contender if the right moves are made in offseason. A season of Lance after he spends a summer here is a gamechanger as well.
    Fans of every single team overrate their own prospect's potential, and so you could go to many of those teams and they will respond yea we have someone with as much potential as Myles. Honestly I don't see the potential being as massive as others do with Myles, I see good player, maybe 1-2 all-star selections in his career if the conference is weak at center kind of player. He isn't a perennial all-star type, I don't think that's in the cards for him.

    I don't really understand the "in the playoffs" qualifier...do you really feel like being 41-41 in the East is somehow a much more prestigious place to be than say Denver's 40-42 in the West? Because it isn't. So on that note, Jokic ***** all over Myles currently, in potential, and for the rest of Myles' career. So does KAT. In fact I think if I really thought about it I could come up with a list of 10-20 players within 2 years of Myles' age who are both currently better than him, and who will probably always be better than him. He just isn't going to be the monster some people want to believe he will be. That isn't even looking at the incoming draft class, which is huge, any of the first several picks are easily worth more than him, too.

  36. #122
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Our roster isn't total garbage, though it is a bit unbalanced. We have some talent. But it's not on par with super teams like Cleveland and Golden State. Not to mention that the coaching is suspect.
    Cavs are overrated. This series proves it. We could've easily taken game #1 in Cleveland with better coaching, CJ hits his shot, or Paul gets the last shot. Game #2 was there for the taking also. Again, if we had better personnel and better coaching we probably win that one.

    Game #3 we really needed more shooters to keep Cleveland at bay during that run.

    We could easily be up 2-1 right now with a better coach and better personnel. Now as far as GSW is concerned, no team is going to be on par with a roster of Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green and Kevin Durant unless we re-sign Paul and then add Captain America, Batman and Wolverine in the off-season.

  37. #123

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    How many playoff teams have a better prospect than Turner?

    I think this team isn't very good, but could definitely be a contender if the right moves are made in offseason. A season of Lance after he spends a summer here is a gamechanger as well.
    Seriously? In terms of the next 5 years if I'm looking at East rosters- you got the Bucks, maybe Cavs and Wizards that are better aligned than us? What is everyone expecting? Teague, PG and Lance aren't old guys. And Turner/GR3 are very young. Thad will decline soon. Monta and Al are out of their primes obviously. So you got two guys out of their primes, 2 guys nowhere near their primes, 3 guys who will be in their primes for the next 4 years and 1 guy at the tail end of his prime. I think our future is fine and we're a piece away.

    Edit: I thought Thad was older. He and Teague each have 3-5 prime years yet.
    Last edited by brownjake43; 04-21-2017 at 12:11 PM.

  38. #124
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Our roster isn't total garbage, though it is a bit unbalanced. We have some talent. But it's not on par with super teams like Cleveland and Golden State. Not to mention that the coaching is suspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    I'm fine with people feeling that way on the season. But the alignment of what triggered this outcry of Fire Bird doesn't make sense at all. And you can't look across the East and tell me there is no way we can make the ECF next year even if we made 0 changes. Lance back has brought energy. This team with energy has been good for the most part. I want to make changes but I definitely disagree with people who think we're way off.

    And to me that's the funny part. If we're playing the Celtics or Raptors right now there is a very good chance we'd be up 2-1 and everyone would be saying exactly what I am saying.

    Also our vets are still in the bottom half of their prime: PG, Lance, Teague. And our 21 year old is looked at as a top 10 player from the past two draft classes by almost any outlet- most have him top 5.

    So I wouldn't say we're in "no mans land"
    This is what's so infuriating to me. PG, Teague, and Turner, with the spark that is Lance, is a group that should be pretty competitive. It's not enough to take out Cleveland, and I don't think anyone really expected that when the season began. I think we were almost all anticipating a second-round effort, and having the chance to put ourselves in a position to maybe get lucky against Cleveland, while certainly going toe-to-toe with Toronto and Boston.

    But all season we've been tortured with flashes of what can be, sparingly shown between uninspired, unenjoyable, mediocre basketball. We've seen possibly the best NBA Pacer get frustrated publicly and stir up serious doubt about whether he will stay. We've seen our best prospect hit a major sophomore slump. Our role players have proven to be insanely inconsistent. And our coach has been helpless through it all, struggling with every coaching decision while also being a wet blanket personality.

    I've been saying all season that there's more talent here than the results would lead you to believe. Thad Young, as good as he was last night, might not be the right player to go with Myles. Monta Ellis is not the right player for us in any lineup, and I've always liked him. CJ Miles is just the worst... I don't even want to see his face. Stuckey was made of glass. And the poo-poo platter of too-old-AlJeff, no-effort-Lavoy, and seldom-played-Seraphin has been a wreck. GRIII is the only guy on the bench that is worth keeping.

    This off-season is about to be another active, shot in the dark off-season. It better be. Replacing Nate is first, and then finding anyone to help us dump Monta and AlJeff, let CJ and Lavoy walk, and go hard after big muscle and great shooting. There's no time to dip our toes in the pool now. It's gotta be 100% cannonball to make Teague, Turner, and Paul work.
    It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

  39. #125

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    This is what's so infuriating to me. PG, Teague, and Turner, with the spark that is Lance, is a group that should be pretty competitive. It's not enough to take out Cleveland, and I don't think anyone really expected that when the season began. I think we were almost all anticipating a second-round effort, and having the chance to put ourselves in a position to maybe get lucky against Cleveland, while certainly going toe-to-toe with Toronto and Boston.

    But all season we've been tortured with flashes of what can be, sparingly shown between uninspired, unenjoyable, mediocre basketball. We've seen possibly the best NBA Pacer get frustrated publicly and stir up serious doubt about whether he will stay. We've seen our best prospect hit a major sophomore slump. Our role players have proven to be insanely inconsistent. And our coach has been helpless through it all, struggling with every coaching decision while also being a wet blanket personality.

    I've been saying all season that there's more talent here than the results would lead you to believe. Thad Young, as good as he was last night, might not be the right player to go with Myles. Monta Ellis is not the right player for us in any lineup, and I've always liked him. CJ Miles is just the worst... I don't even want to see his face. Stuckey was made of glass. And the poo-poo platter of too-old-AlJeff, no-effort-Lavoy, and seldom-played-Seraphin has been a wreck. GRIII is the only guy on the bench that is worth keeping.

    This off-season is about to be another active, shot in the dark off-season. It better be. Replacing Nate is first, and then finding anyone to help us dump Monta and AlJeff, let CJ and Lavoy walk, and go hard after big muscle and great shooting. There's no time to dip our toes in the pool now. It's gotta be 100% cannonball to make Teague, Turner, and Paul work.
    I agree with everything you said. And would add Lance and Thad to the people to keep around who are great pieces. (And even GR3 on the bench). So with that we are one piece away. Either Lance or Thad can start but not both. One of them should be our 6th man.

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