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Thread: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

  1. #51
    Your New Starting PG BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    Off the top of my head my issues are (with no hindsight being used as a crutch):

    Ellis signing
    Stuckey signing
    Not picking up Solo's option
    Al signing
    Teague trade
    Thad trade
    McMillan hiring

    I'm sure there are a few more but that is a quick rundown. Even with that said though while I think Larry has done a pretty crappie job over the last 3 years I still think overall he has been good. I honestly believe he may have taken over the single worst situation in the NBA and made some pretty amazing things happen. The last few years though have me ready to move on.
    Ellis could have been a great asset. It was hard to predict how he would do coming off that injury.

    The Stuckey signing was a mistake

    Solo really isn't any better than CJ and GRIII. He's not nearly as good as Lance. A cheap solo is better than expensive Solo but is also pretty irrelevant. He's just not that good to matter.

    The AlJeff signing was really bad and extremely confusing given the direction of the team

    Due to Hills health or lack thereof the Teague trade is a good one even if we don't have any shooters to pair with him

    Picking up Thad was an excellent move

    McMillan is just an interim coach. The bigger question is if they should've gotten rid of Frank Vogel. It is very possible that guys were tuning him out and it was time for him to go. He is not the second coming of Greg Popovich

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    The Nate hire looks bad until we find out he has one of those fake options like Stuckey.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Is Al Jefferson really injured, or are they just leaving him be to avoid embarrassment?
    "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference


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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Are we still gonna play make believe, that trading Leonard for Hill was beneficial because we "needed a pg" lol. This trade is Bird's biggest blunder, and the largest stain on his GM record
    Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Are we still gonna play make believe, that trading Leonard for Hill was beneficial because we "needed a pg" lol. This trade is Bird's biggest blunder, and the largest stain on his GM record


    That was a good move at the time based on our needs and the fact that GHill was a proven NBA player.

    No one knew Leonard was going to turn out so good. Just like no one knew Oden was going to be a bust. You just never know with draft picks.

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  9. #56

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

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    That was a good move at the time based on our needs and the fact that GHill was a proven NBA player.

    No one knew Leonard was going to turn out so good. Just like no one knew Oden was going to be a bust. You just never know with draft picks.
    I didn't know Leonard was going to be this good but I wanted the Pacers to draft him. I didn't even watch him in college, I just remembered he was supposed to be a top 10 pick and thought you had to take him at 15.

    But most likely that wouldn't have been the Pacers pick had they not traded it away

  10. #57

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    I knew Pacers should have drafted Draymond Green too. Who did they draft that year?

    I was pretty pissed when they didn't draft Perry Jones cause he was supposed to be #1 pick at one point lol. But he isn't even in the league anymore

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by sav View Post
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    That was a good move at the time based on our needs and the fact that GHill was a proven NBA player.

    No one knew Leonard was going to turn out so good. Just like no one knew Oden was going to be a bust. You just never know with draft picks.
    As I've explained on this board 100 times, you don't have to know how Kawhi will turn out to know that was a bad trade. I called it then and I've always been right and it's really simple as to why:

    George Hill has always had a 0% chance of being the sort of game changer that causes a team to be a title contender.
    Player X where X is the draft pick, in this case Kawhi, has a greater than 0% chance of being that sort of player.

    When you are a team like the Indiana Pacers, a team that will never be able to sign a top free agent, a team that 100% has to acquire their best talent through the draft, you know what you don't do? Give away draft picks for middling players. That's a play that ensures your ceiling is somewhere below champion, always.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    It's the exact same reason giving away picks for Thad was awful management, too, by the way. You give up any chance of a player panning out and making your team a contender, and in exchange you get a mediocre player. That's not how you become a champion.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    It's the exact same reason giving away picks for Thad was awful management, too, by the way. You give up any chance of a player panning out and making your team a contender, and in exchange you get a mediocre player. That's not how you become a champion.
    Man what? For all you know Thad is a contributor on a championship team before that mid - late first round pick? How many picks in that range last longer than 3 years in the NBA?

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Man what? For all you know Thad is a contributor on a championship team before that mid - late first round pick? How many picks in that range last longer than 3 years in the NBA?
    It's the "A bird in the bush is better than a bird in the hand" mentality. Potential upside always outweighs a known downside.
    BillS

    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    It's the exact same reason giving away picks for Thad was awful management, too, by the way. You give up any chance of a player panning out and making your team a contender, and in exchange you get a mediocre player. That's not how you become a champion.
    Nobody said this when it happened...
    Lifelong pacers fan

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    It's the "A bird in the bush is better than a bird in the hand" mentality. Potential upside always outweighs a known downside.
    What bush was Bird in?

    "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference


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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    I think they did. We should go back and look. I know I was concerned about it.
    "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference


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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Things that aren't Bird's fault:

    1) PG suffering one of the most flukey injuries in sports history. This hastened the rebuild.

    2) Hibbert falling off a cliff in what is one of the most bizarre downfalls in league history.

    3) David "at that moment, the light went out" West moping around immediately after the PG injury, West wanting nothing to do with the Pacers franchise once they weren't in contention without PG, West having no leadership at all in that difficult season, and West having the desire to be an afterthought bench player who wanted to stare at Tim Duncan instead of trying to get the Pacers back on the map with PG's return.

    4) Lance being advised by a group of idiots in 2014.


    Things that are Bird's fault:

    1) Jefferson and Monta contracts. Since West worked out so well for us, I think Bird thought he could keep signing big name older guys and get production out of them. Stuckey was also a mistake.

    2) Firing Vogel and then promoting an assistant with a mediocre head coaching track record.

    3) Just not putting a good enough roster together at the moment. We don't have guys like Tristen Thompson who get those tough playoff rebounds. That's our team in a nutshell. Really soft.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 04-20-2017 at 11:57 AM.

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  22. #66
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    To me, the Hill for Teague trade is essentially a wash. Yes, we sorely miss Hill's defense against the Cavs (especially on Irving), but we'd also miss Teague's offense and probably wouldn't have enough offensive firepower on a team that simply has PG, Hill, Lance, and Turner as it's 'big guns' to get in a battle with the Cavs 'Big 3' even with improved defense.

    The Monta Ellis signing was bad. I think Bird was just trying to get PG some scoring help--having lost West in free agency. However, Ellis is a shell of his former self and simply hasn't aged well.

    The Al Jefferson signing was also bad; however, many people in the media and on this board loved the signing when it was made compared to the money that was dished out to Mahinmi. Maybe Bird should've predicted that Jefferson was aging and would become a dinosaur in today's game, but he also could've been a low post scorer who could wear down some of the 'small ball' lineups that teams are throwing out there.

    None of the other signings have really had a detrimental impact. CJ Miles is a streaky shooter. Stuckey was essentially replaced by Lance, so that signing hasn't really hurt us long-term.

    At this point, I wouldn't mind if we packaged a first round pick to try to move Jefferson and/or Ellis's contract to try to make one last run with PG before the clock strikes midnight. Maybe we could sign Gordon Hayward.
    I agree with most of this. But both Monta and Al took much steeper declines than skeptics even would have thought.

    Montas first year was a pretty decent dropoff which was a little surprising, but he was still arguably our second best player. But look how far he has dropped now. He's gone from being the leading scorer on a good mavs team to being joe backup combo guard rodney stuckey clone on a 42 win team in just 2 seasons. If Monta would have just continued to play as well as last year the signing would have been decent given the price.

    Same with Al to a degree. He looked good on paper for 10m a year, especially since he was just brought in as a backup PF - even looked like maybe a steal. Just two years ago he was nearly a 20/10 guy. I thought if nothing else he was insurance if Myles wasn't playing well. But god, he is just worthless to us. He's still an absolute beast with his back to the basket and maybe the best rebounder on the team, but even that isn't enough to offset his 1/10 defense or his inability to help the team in any way on offense other than catching the ball in the post. He isn't even playing this series - one where we are getting murdered on the boards and nobody has really even noticed. Really just been so disappointing...
    Lifelong pacers fan

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Regarding the Hill - Teague trade: I like Hill a lot, but had we kept Hill and had he played in such a limited amount of games here like he did in Utah, then we wouldn't have the opportunity to get smacked around by Cleveland in the first round because this wouldn't be a playoff team.

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  26. #68
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    Nobody said this when it happened...
    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...t=#post2143117

    No one? Checkout​ my dozen posts calling this move a bad move ensuring mediocrity right when it was announced in this thread. Why make such an easily disproven statement?

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...t=#post2143117

    No one? Checkout​ my dozen posts calling this move a bad move ensuring mediocrity right when it was announced in this thread. Why make such an easily disproven statement?
    Ok. The majority of people
    Lifelong pacers fan

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    It's not Larry's fault, for example, the NBA passing Roy by. It is Larry's fault however of not having the slightest clue on how to piece together a roster that has any semblance of balance on either side of the ball.

    West wanting to move on isn't something he can control. Building a roster that can't defend, can't shoot, and can't rebound falls sqaurely on Bird's shoulders.

    Reading people defend Larry when the moves Larry made clearly don't meet the standards Larry laid out for his chosen squad is and always will be hilarious.

    The only thing that saved this from happening sooner is the fact he had a core that would have been criminal to touch during their ECFs runs. But his inability to piece together even an average bench at the time was a preview of what was to come with the full roster.

    We always got the "well Dan Burke is the true genius of defense" and "giving up wide open 3s is the strategy" and some point in time reality needs to set in that the roster we've seen for two years and the benches we've seen for 6-7 is the fault of the guy in charge. After a certain point when it happens over and over we just need to realize Larry struggles with team building, which is really his whole job.
    Last edited by Since86; 04-20-2017 at 12:21 PM.
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  30. #71
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    I have supported Bird for a long time. You now I approve of him bringing back Lance. But this Stuckey, CJ, Chase, AlJeff etc. stuff is garbage. Those are loser type players. Also, Larry did an awful job constructing this last iteration of the Pacers. Just on that note, I wouldn't blame Paul George if he walked. I would need Bird to provide an explanation for the mess he's made recently. With that said, he did draft well recently. This is not an all or nothing thing. Bird has done some good things but lately the bad has outweighed the good.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    Ok. The majority of people
    Reading that thread I see a majority of people who should be saying, "we're sorry Dece, we let our excitement get the better of us, you were right. If anything you weren't pessimistic enough since 41 wins is way less than 45-50."

  32. #73
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    Off the top of my head my issues are (with no hindsight being used as a crutch):

    Ellis signing
    Stuckey signing
    Not picking up Solo's option
    Al signing
    Teague trade
    Thad trade
    McMillan hiring

    I'm sure there are a few more but that is a quick rundown. Even with that said though while I think Larry has done a pretty crappie job over the last 3 years I still think overall he has been good. I honestly believe he may have taken over the single worst situation in the NBA and made some pretty amazing things happen. The last few years though have me ready to move on.
    I completely forgot about the Solomon Hill contract option. Yes, that was a mistake IMO. Solo could easily have been here on a cheap one year deal and he easily would have been better as our backup over LaVoy Allen as a small four or IMO he's really no worse than C.J. Miles. I do think not picking up his option was a mistake.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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  34. #74
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    I've said it in many ways, discussing many aspects of the particular issues at hand. But this article seems to touch on most, so I'll just reiterate.

    Larry got Reggie and the Pacers to the Finals. He had some great years here as a Coach. In his various different front office roles, he's had times where he hit home runs, and he has had times when he made mistakes.

    Sometimes the mistakes were the type that you could only know about looking back, hindsight being 20/20. Sometimes the mistakes were the result of some truly awful things that happened *around* him and the team that put him in a position where avoiding a mistake was very difficult, but regardless.

    But my contention has always been that in recent years, *especially* from the Danny trade on-wards, the NBA has moved on and Larry hasn't kept pace with it. Because again, as I said, all GM's make mistakes. So I am not going to call for Larry's job because of each and every single misstep from his entire tenure. But early on in his time here, he won GM of the year and his homerun moves far outweighed his missteps (early coaching decisions aside...Let's not go there.) - But in the last 2-4 years, his homeruns have basically been: 1) Draft Myles and 2) Take a wild gamble on Lance to salvage a dismal season. Everything else, that I can recall from the top of my head, has been mediocre and hasn't allowed us to keep pace with an evolving league. OR WORSE, it's set us back dramatically. I won't bother naming all those, because it's just beating a dead horse.

    I have so much respect for what LB has done for this franchise, and I am really sad that my personal opinion of him is somewhat deteriorating because of the last few seasons. But it's time.

    The league has changed and we need to change with it.

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  36. #75
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Solomon Hill was, is, and will continue to be garbage. Only thing he'd be doing here is make people ask why Nate won't play GR3 over him

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