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Thread: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    Fully agree. Would like a better showing in the playoffs right now to be a little more attractive to potential targets. And it's going to take some creative maneuvering to make cap space for a real impact. But I still like the core of Teague, Turner, and PG, and I feel with another all-star and more time together, something special can come of that trio. Getting rid of Monta and AlJeff are the first step toward that, and it's going to be difficult.
    It's not easy to just get "another all-star" without giving up one (or a potential one in Turner). There's no way we can acquire anyone that is going to convince PG to stay without giving up Tuner... it's just not possible.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Dumb article...that Russian dude RUINED the Nets. Birds hand was forced, and we could be a lot worse off

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by MUpaceSIC View Post
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    It's not easy to just get "another all-star" without giving up one (or a potential one in Turner). There's no way we can acquire anyone that is going to convince PG to stay without giving up Tuner... it's just not possible.
    Pretty sure I didn't say it would be easy.

    Fully agree. Would like a better showing in the playoffs right now to be a little more attractive to potential targets. And it's going to take some creative maneuvering to make cap space for a real impact. But I still like the core of Teague, Turner, and PG, and I feel with another all-star and more time together, something special can come of that trio. Getting rid of Monta and AlJeff are the first step toward that, and it's going to be difficult.
    It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think Bird's biggest weakness is that even though he preached patience, his acquisitions are all short sighted. He gets paid to not only look at the present nature of the team, but what they can accomplish in a few years time.

    I don't think the Hill trade was bad, no one wants to pay 25 million to a 30 year old Hill. However, I agree Pacers traded the wrong player and we should have somehow tried to trade Monta Ellis for someone that fit our team better.
    Monta was shopped...nobody wanted him.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
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    He writes this article like the Pacers had the choice of trading George Hill or Monta Ellis for Teague. Wasn't happening for Ellis. Article assumes a lot. Did we lowball Lance? I thought the offer we made was for more years at about the same $ per year. Very uninformed article.
    Also, we don't get Teague unless a 3rd team got in on the deal, & that being Utah.

    George Hill for Jeff Teague was not a fair deal. Atlanta turned that down several times before...Utah got in with trading Atlanta the 12th pick & the deal was made.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I get your point, but then I see someone like DeAndre Jordan , and he is still relevant
    Well, he's a pretty athletic center though. I was thinking more like the Hibberts, Jefferson, Monroe, Mosgovs, and Boguts of the world.


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by I Love P View Post
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    Also, we don't get Teague unless a 3rd team got in on the deal, & that being Utah.

    George Hill for Jeff Teague was not a fair deal. Atlanta turned that down several times before...Utah got in with trading Atlanta the 12th pick & the deal was made.
    It was a fair deal. Hawks just didn't need George. They planned to promote Schroeder. To starting PG. Jazz needed to stabilize their point guard position. Besides, even if they had used Hill to back up Dennis or played him at shooting guard. There's no way the Hawks would've been able to afford a payroll of Dwight Howard, George Hill, Paul Milsap, Kent Bazemore, and then the emerging Tim Hardaway Jr. Not to mention Schroeder's extension.

  11. #33

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    The Pacers of today? Well yeah he played a significant role but I can't say he was the worst thing to ever happen to the Pacers either considering our only NBA Finals appearance he was our coach(maybe he should do that again I know he won't but honestly he might be an improvement)

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGeorgeHill View Post
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    Dumb article...that Russian dude RUINED the Nets. Birds hand was forced, and we could be a lot worse off

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    eh... forced? Change was needed, when it came to Hibbert. But nothing else was forced. He wasn't forced to fire Vogel and hire McMillan. He wasn't forced to sign Monta, Stuckey and Jefferson. Larry did this himself really.


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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    eh... forced? Change was needed, when it came to Hibbert. But nothing else was forced. He wasn't forced to fire Vogel and hire McMillan. He wasn't forced to sign Monta, Stuckey and Jefferson. Larry did this himself really.
    I am not mad at Larry for Monta and Stuckey. Monta had a terrific few years in Dallas. The problem in Indiana was Monta was/is playing shooting guard. He needs to be your point guard, or de-facto point guard. We brought Monta off the bench here in Indy as the point guard twice this season. Once during the 7 game win streak, and then for the last few games of the season. He averaged double-digits both times. Now we have him back at shooting guard again in the starting lineup, and it's been a disaster. Not sure if Nate is just dull, or if he literally has no other personnel to work with. Which is another reason why we should've signed Poythress for the rest of the season. We could've started him at the 3 and slid Paul to the SG until GR3 got healthy. If we had signed Alex Poythress during our big losing streak earlier in the season he would've been acclimated and up to speed by now.

    Not saying Alex Poythress is a world beater. We really don't know what he is or can become yet. But in his time with the Sixers he has shown an ability to space the floor by shooting the 3. He also is 6'7. Meaning he can play as your SF or SG. He's also young and athletic. A great body to use against the older Cavaliers. Far better size, athleticism and youth to use as our starting SG than the smaller, shorter, and older Monta. Plus it allows Teague to be your primary ball-handler which is where a point guard, excels the most.

    As for Stuckey, after the amazing season he had on a 1 year deal. Larry did right by him. Too bad his body couldn't hold up. But Stuckey's style of play is also at fault. You can't be a human bowling ball forever.
    Last edited by Grimp; 04-19-2017 at 08:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    eh... forced? Change was needed, when it came to Hibbert. But nothing else was forced. He wasn't forced to fire Vogel and hire McMillan. He wasn't forced to sign Monta, Stuckey and Jefferson. Larry did this himself really.
    Did Larry snap PG's leg in half? Did he make Hibbert become irrelevant almost over night? He made West quit on this team and then opt out? He made Lance turn down guaranteed money to "bet on himself"? You're telling me that you think he would have broke up this team anyway, even if none of this stuff happened? Sorry but I don't buy it. Of coarse there would be change, but nothing to the degree of what we've seen. Sometimes **** happens.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    The article does not mention the loss of Manhimi, which arguably has proven to be the major missing link this year, particularly in the playoffs.

    Larry's hand was probably forced to let Manhimi go. But his mistake was in not looking for a solid replacement, even just for a few minutes a game, particularly down the stretch. Was there not a vet who could have filled this void? Vets Stuckey, Ellis, and Jefferson did not address it at all.

    I am comfortable with Teague, even with his defensive liabilities, as he truly can create and he is clutch down the stretch. Unfortunately Bird did not predict how much of a liability Turner would become on both ends of the floor, and did nothing at mid-season to address it.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 04-19-2017 at 09:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Larry has made some mistakes over the last couple years. Some of the signings were either bad or mind boggling. But prior to that and even with the Myles Turner signing, he made decent decisions.

    Personally, I am on the fence with him. I wonder if he lost whatever he once had. Maybe we should have known when he hung onto JOb way too long.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    The article does not mention the loss of Manhimi, which arguably has proven to be the major missing link this year, particularly in the playoffs.

    Larry's hand was probably forced to let Manhimi go. But his mistake was in not looking for a solid replacement, even just for a few minutes a game, particularly down the stretch. Was there not a vet who could have filled this void? Vets Stuckey, Ellis, and Jefferson did not address it at all.

    I am comfortable with Teague, even with his defensive liabilities, as he truly can create and he is clutch down the stretch. Unfortunately Bird did not predict how much of a liability Turner would become on both ends of the floor, and did nothing at mid-season to address it.
    There was really nothing he could have done about Mahinmi. He was set for a big payday. Given the salary and his injuries this season, I say Bird dodged a bullet.
    Last edited by ksuttonjr76; 04-19-2017 at 09:43 PM.


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    I mean, even if he did 'ruin' them, he clearly created them to begin with. So he ain't all bad.
    Lifelong pacers fan

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Calling Ellis a "chucker" ruins this hack's credibility. He obviously has not watched any Pacer games. I love how these crappy bloggers look at a spreadsheet, and think they have figured everything out. What a loser
    Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Calling Ellis a "chucker" ruins this hack's credibility. He obviously has not watched any Pacer games. I love how these crappy bloggers look at a spreadsheet, and think they have figured everything out. What a loser
    Some games, I wish he was the vintage Ellis The Chucker, lol. He would never have a game with only 2 points.


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    To me, the Hill for Teague trade is essentially a wash. Yes, we sorely miss Hill's defense against the Cavs (especially on Irving), but we'd also miss Teague's offense and probably wouldn't have enough offensive firepower on a team that simply has PG, Hill, Lance, and Turner as it's 'big guns' to get in a battle with the Cavs 'Big 3' even with improved defense.

    The Monta Ellis signing was bad. I think Bird was just trying to get PG some scoring help--having lost West in free agency. However, Ellis is a shell of his former self and simply hasn't aged well.

    The Al Jefferson signing was also bad; however, many people in the media and on this board loved the signing when it was made compared to the money that was dished out to Mahinmi. Maybe Bird should've predicted that Jefferson was aging and would become a dinosaur in today's game, but he also could've been a low post scorer who could wear down some of the 'small ball' lineups that teams are throwing out there.

    None of the other signings have really had a detrimental impact. CJ Miles is a streaky shooter. Stuckey was essentially replaced by Lance, so that signing hasn't really hurt us long-term.

    At this point, I wouldn't mind if we packaged a first round pick to try to move Jefferson and/or Ellis's contract to try to make one last run with PG before the clock strikes midnight. Maybe we could sign Gordon Hayward.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Larry did a great job of putting together a great team and was recognized for it. Since 2014 he's done an overall poor job and has put together a dysfunctional team with a lot of holes and missing pieces with overpaid role players, a lack of shooters and horribly soft front court so he should be recognized for that. I don't agree with everything in the article, for starters the team isn't ruined yet but if we lose Paul George I think it would be fair to say this.
    The bottom line is that it's Larry's job to put a team together to compete for a title. This is not an easy job but he's failing right now and there is no reason to make excuses for him. Larry has a rare player in Paul George that he should be able to build around. A coach that fails is usually held accountable and Larry should be as well.
    Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

    Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    I mean are we comparing the Larry Bird body of work from when he took over in 05 or are we just talking the past few years? I've always loved Bird's attitude of not accepting being a playoff team, I mean sure there are years when you just have to be happy to be there (this being one of those years). But overall I like the fact that he is always trying in some way to get back to the title games. His personality is hit and miss and depending on who you are you either love his no nonsense talk or you hate the fact that he doesn't filter what he thinks about players. There is good and bad there.

    He has has a better than average, IMO, draft record. Typically we are drafting in the late teens or twenty's so he hasn't had a chance to hit or miss on a big time draft pick. However, again IMO, he has hit a couple of home runs drafting in the mid teens and hit the absolute jackpot the time he was able to draft in the top 10. His trades typically are middle of the road however he has had one real stinker of trade. Not talent wise per se but what it did to the team (again my opinion). I know that some people hated the Louis Scola for Gerald Green & Miles Plumlee but to me that was a (let's go for the title) type of trade that cost us just a couple of young players (neither of which figured into our long term plans) for a veteran who potentially could have made almost all of the difference in the world coming off of the bench.

    However coaching has been a real sore subject. He hired Jim O'Brien after a phone conversation, not even meeting face to face. Then kept him on well past his expiration date and even when players and the media were questioning him openly he gave him an extension. That one will always baffle me. Then it's not like he went and did long interviews to find a replacement, he hired Frank because he asked Jim who should replace him and to Satan's credit he said Frank. Bird kind of by default gave Frank the job and then Frank did the one thing I don't thing Bird expected, he kept winning. Then he decides to not rehire Frank as the coach because he wanted a new direction. He then hires Nate, who was Franks assistant, without even interviewing anyone else.

    Also while I'm at it there is this. For two of the three coach's Larry has said he wants to play faster and more uptempo only to give the coach's players who could not play this style if their life depended on it. He gave JOB Roy Hibbert and he has given Nate Al Jefferson. Do either of these scream up tempo to you? Me neither.

    I would say this if you asked or even if you don't.

    Larry Bird's tenure with the Pacers has mostly been positive with a few good to great seasons in there and a couple that we would all really rather just forget. However in the end his legacy I feel will be tied to Paul George. If Paul walks and we are left in shambles I think this will be the main memory people will have of Birds tenure here. Conversely if Paul stays and we bring in talent to compete I think almost all of any down years will be a faded memory.


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  31. #46
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Larry has made some mistakes over the last couple years. Some of the signings were either bad or mind boggling. But prior to that and even with the Myles Turner signing, he made decent decisions.

    Personally, I am on the fence with him. I wonder if he lost whatever he once had. Maybe we should have known when he hung onto JOb way too long.
    I don't think that he lost whatever he had.....the Bird that we see now is the same Bird that we saw before. He's rigid, unwavering in his belief that he isn't wrong, "old school" when it comes to building a Team and slow to adapt to make necessary changes when there are problems. He IMHO was a great President of Basketball Operations prior to the emergence of 3pt shooting NBA ( which saw the rise of the Pacers Big 5 lineup with GH/PG13/Lance/West/Hibbert )....but in today's NBA...I think that his style of Basketball doesn't fit.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    There was really nothing he could have done about Mahinmi. He was set for a big payday. Given the salary and his injuries this season, I say Bird dodged a bullet.
    Though the point stands on Ian, Bird clearly both misjudged both Myles' readiness to be a full-time starting center with major defensive and rebounding responsibilities and the viability of Al Jefferson as a full-time backup and occasional starter (if Myles went through any rough patches). Seems like McKeyFan was talking about how woeful the center position has been this year, and frankly, there were some of us (dozens!) who were mighty worried about it to begin the season.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    My problems with Bird since he's been in charge, JOB.

    Not trading Hibbert and West sooner.

    The Al Jefferson contract.

    I think that's it.
    Off the top of my head my issues are (with no hindsight being used as a crutch):

    Ellis signing
    Stuckey signing
    Not picking up Solo's option
    Al signing
    Teague trade
    Thad trade
    McMillan hiring

    I'm sure there are a few more but that is a quick rundown. Even with that said though while I think Larry has done a pretty crappie job over the last 3 years I still think overall he has been good. I honestly believe he may have taken over the single worst situation in the NBA and made some pretty amazing things happen. The last few years though have me ready to move on.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Wait until the off season. ....😅😅😂😂😂🙄🙄😂😂😄😀
    I'm not perfect and neither are you.

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    Ephisians 4: 32 And be kind towards one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as Elohim also forgave you in Messiah.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    Off the top of my head my issues are (with no hindsight being used as a crutch):

    Ellis signing
    Stuckey signing
    Not picking up Solo's option
    Al signing
    Teague trade
    Thad trade
    McMillan hiring

    I'm sure there are a few more but that is a quick rundown. Even with that said though while I think Larry has done a pretty crappie job over the last 3 years I still think overall he has been good. I honestly believe he may have taken over the single worst situation in the NBA and made some pretty amazing things happen. The last few years though have me ready to move on.
    I'm fine with Ellis and Stuckey signing. I think we underachieved last year and we almost beat Raptors. Ellis is a good expiring chip next year and we turned Stuckey into Lance because of smart contract structure.

    I'm fine with not picking up Solo option. All reports say he sucked because of effort and he didn't start giving effort until contract declined. Look at him now.

    Love the Teague trade. GHill is old and misses half the season, he would have been a disaster for us this year.

    Still not deciding on Nate after one regular season.

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