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Thread: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

  1. #126
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Our roster isn't total garbage, though it is a bit unbalanced. We have some talent. But it's not on par with super teams like Cleveland and Golden State. Not to mention that the coaching is suspect.
    I'm not sure I agree with that. Outside of PG I think our roster really is pretty much garbage. Who is our second best player, Teague? There are 15 other starting Point Guards playing in the playoffs right now and I would pretty quickly choose at least 12 of them over Teague. 2 I could go either way with, and 1 I have Teague ahead of. This is a star league, and even our second best player ranks among the bottom of his playoff peers. How is that a good roster?

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  3. #127
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    I agree with everything you said. And would add Lance and Thad to the people to keep around who are great pieces. (And even GR3 on the bench). So with that we are one piece away. Either Lance or Thad can start but not both. One of them should be our 6th man.
    Keeping Lance is a no-brainer, and I think he's a terrific 6th man, who can close games. He's a lot like Ginobli, IMO. Now that he's matured a little, I don't expect the Lantics like blowing in Lebron's ear. You're going to get big plays from him, and you're going to get some really dumb ones. Ginobli's dumb plays always get covered up because he's had Duncan, Parker, and now Kawhi to have his back.

    Thad is a fine player, but I think he's highly likely to be moved again. His skillset isn't what we need as much, and his contract is highly trade-able. I didn't realize until just now, he has a player option after next year, so in essence, he's a serviceable big with a $13mil expiring contract after this season is mercifully over.
    It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

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  5. #128
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    Cavs are overrated. This series proves it. We could've easily taken game #1 in Cleveland with better coaching, CJ hits his shot, or Paul gets the last shot. Game #2 was there for the taking also. Again, if we had better personnel and better coaching we probably win that one.

    Game #3 we really needed more shooters to keep Cleveland at bay during that run.

    We could easily be up 2-1 right now with a better coach and better personnel. Now as far as GSW is concerned, no team is going to be on par with a roster of Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green and Kevin Durant unless we re-sign Paul and then add Captain America, Batman and Wolverine in the off-season.

    Cleveland is elite offensively. And in today's NBA, offense wins more than defense.

    Golden State learned that last year, which is why they sacrificed defense to bring in Durant and improve an already-elite offense.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    Keeping Lance is a no-brainer, and I think he's a terrific 6th man, who can close games. He's a lot like Ginobli, IMO. Now that he's matured a little, I don't expect the Lantics like blowing in Lebron's ear. You're going to get big plays from him, and you're going to get some really dumb ones. Ginobli's dumb plays always get covered up because he's had Duncan, Parker, and now Kawhi to have his back.
    I agree with this, from what little I have seen from Lance this year he looks like a completely different player, yet while being the same player as before. I've always liked him as a 6th or 7th man, just never as a starter.

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  8. #130
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Cleveland is elite offensively. And in today's NBA, offense wins more than defense.

    Golden State learned that last year, which is why they sacrificed defense to bring in Durant and improve an already-elite offense.
    I don't think they're elite. Durant alone is worth more than everyone Cleveland picked up from the basketball boneyard. Our coach is just using the wrong scheme against them. He keeps doubling Lebron and Kyrie in the lane. Give up the "2" instead of the "3" should be the philosophy.

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  10. #131
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    Seriously? In terms of the next 5 years if I'm looking at East rosters- you got the Bucks, maybe Cavs and Wizards that are better aligned than us? What is everyone expecting? Teague, PG and Lance aren't old guys. And Turner/GR3 are very young. Thad will decline soon. Monta and Al are out of their primes obviously. So you got two guys out of their primes, 2 guys nowhere near their primes, 3 guys who will be in their primes for the next 4 years and 1 guy at the tail end of his prime. I think our future is fine and we're a piece away.

    Edit: I thought Thad was older. He and Teague each have 3-5 prime years yet.
    Who the hell knows what we'll look like in 5 years or any of those other teams. Hard to look past even next season. All I'm saying is I don't think we are terribly far, just have to make right moves.

    Monta and Al are expiring contracts next season, maybe can trade.

  11. #132
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Who the hell knows what we'll look like in 5 years or any of those other teams. Hard to look past even next season. All I'm saying is I don't think we are terribly far, just have to make right moves.

    Monta and Al are expiring contracts next season, maybe can trade.
    Monta can definitely be traded. His contract is like Stuckey's. You waive him before the conclusion of next season you aren't on the hook for his 2018-2019 salary. Al Jefferson has a team option for next Summer.

    As for the Cavs. They'll be older next season. More vulnerable than they are now. Also if they lose to GSW in the Finals, changes will be coming for certain.

    The Wizards will throw a max at Otto Porter but to be honest, they are in a dog-fight with Atlanta in this series. They've won both games in Washington but they haven't come easy. Wizards are good but not elite.

    Milwaukee is interesting but between injuries, losing Monroe in free agency this Summer possibly, it's not exactly a solid foundation there. They have Giannis but if I were them I'd shop Parker hard this Summer and see if someone bites.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    Monta can definitely be traded. His contract is like Stuckey's. You waive him before the conclusion of next season you aren't on the hook for his 2018-2019 salary. Al Jefferson has a team option for next Summer.

    As for the Cavs. They'll be older next season. More vulnerable than they are now. Also if they lose to GSW in the Finals, changes will be coming for certain.

    The Wizards will throw a max at Otto Porter but to be honest, they are in a dog-fight with Atlanta in this series. They've won both games in Washington but they haven't come easy. Wizards are good but not elite.

    Milwaukee is interesting but between injuries, losing Monroe in free agency this Summer possibly, it's not exactly a solid foundation there. They have Giannis but if I were them I'd shop Parker hard this Summer and see if someone bites.
    This might be the first post of yours I've agreed with.

    Bucks have Giannis, who if he learns to shoot could be one of the most unstoppable players in the NBA. But they get bit by health bug every year.

    But yes, Monta and Al are expirings. I'd try and move them both for Melo if it would please PG.

  13. #134
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    This might be the first post of yours I've agreed with.

    Bucks have Giannis, who if he learns to shoot could be one of the most unstoppable players in the NBA. But they get bit by health bug every year.

    But yes, Monta and Al are expirings. I'd try and move them both for Melo if it would please PG.


    Actually, I read over at Hoopshype Celtics front office is stirred up about this playoff series with the Bulls. They are really thinking about trading Crowder for Melo this off-season. If that occurs, they are REALLY out of the Hayward sweepstakes. Especially because along with a possible Melo trade, they have to pay that No.1 pick, and also pay Kelly Olynyk is they wish to retain his services.

  14. #135

    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Who the hell knows what we'll look like in 5 years or any of those other teams. Hard to look past even next season. All I'm saying is I don't think we are terribly far, just have to make right moves.

    Monta and Al are expiring contracts next season, maybe can trade.
    Agreed.

  15. #136
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Blame PG all you want, but we're paying Ellis and Jefferson a combined $22M this season, and we had 8 points in 18 minutes to show for it last night.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    he's done a pretty bad job building the roster the last several years. trading away draft picks for old and or mediocre vets has been his biggest issue, followed by signing old and or mediocre vets

    bird has turned the pacers into a treadmill team with really only two valuable assets

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    In the summer everyone thought Bird was a genius for putting together the roster. No one foresaw this happening. Even PG thanked Bird or our FO for "not wasting his prime" and putting together a great roster.

    I'm still of the position that if we had Vogel or a decent coach we wouldn't be this bad. We have a talented roster on paper. We just need a coach to put it all together
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    In the summer everyone thought Bird was a genius for putting together the roster. No one foresaw this happening. Even PG thanked Bird or our FO for "not wasting his prime" and putting together a great roster.

    I'm still of the position that if we had Vogel or a decent coach we wouldn't be this bad. We have a talented roster on paper. We just need a coach to put it all together
    Bird's "3 year coach" philosophy is eerily similar to his "3 years past their prime FA signing" philosophy...

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    Blame PG all you want, but we're paying Ellis and Jefferson a combined $22M this season, and we had 8 points in 18 minutes to show for it last night.
    Who is blaming PG?

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    In the summer everyone thought Bird was a genius for putting together the roster. No one foresaw this happening.
    Disagree. This team was an obvious 5 to 10 seed before the season and quite a few called it. Go ahead and put this fact down as well. Unless we trade PG, we will be a 5 to 10 seed next year too.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    In the summer everyone thought Bird was a genius for putting together the roster.
    No. Not everyone. A number of people still pointed out that the roster didn't make a lot of sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    I'm still of the position that if we had Vogel or a decent coach we wouldn't be this bad.
    Well, that's a given. Better coaching would result in a better record both in the RS and in the playoffs. That's exactly why Bird deserves blame both for firing Frank and for failing to replace him with a coach of a similar caliber. The fact that he didn't interview anyone other than Nate was heavily criticized in this forum.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    No. Not everyone. A number of people still pointed out that the roster didn't make a lot of sense.


    Well, that's a given. Better coaching would result in a better record both in the RS and in the playoffs. That's exactly why Bird deserves blame both for firing Frank and for failing to replace him with a coach of a similar caliber. The fact that he didn't interview anyone other than Nate was heavily criticized in this forum.
    I agree the Pacers should have kept Frank, at least for another year. But Nate was never supposed to have any relevance. The Pacers had a mini rebuild going and didn't want to fork out the money while the team was not going to contend. They were also not as high as some on this board with Frank, even if Frank is clearly better than Nate. He's not better than Rick Carlisle and certainly not as good as Larry Brown. The key is that he is replaceable and upgradeable. Pacers fans should not be concerned that Frankie is long gone. Nice smile he has, I know. But he's not the second coming of Gregg Popovich.

    The trades though were questionable. You don't bring a pass first PG like Jeff Teague to a team full of ball dominant guards. That's why Teague struggled early. It was a terrible fit. The other moves Larry made were also bad over the last couple years, especially the AlJeff, CJ, Stuckey and Chase acquisitions and Stuckey's second idiotic contract. The fact is, CJ and Chase were supposed to be a couple good shooters. Chase is gone and CJ is averaging about 15% from 3 the last two post seasons. We also lost Ian after losing Hibbert (great idea btw) and Bird didn't bring in size. It's just flat awful what Bird did to the roster.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Here's how Bird can rectify things.

    Step 1: Trade PG13 to the Celtics for the #1 pick. Draft Markelle Fultz
    Step 2: Sign Gordon Hayward to max contract
    Step 3: Let Teague walk.
    Step 4: Trade Monta or Jefferson

    Would love to see Reddick, but likely 0 chance that happens. Need some 3&D guys. I'd take a flier on Terrence Jones as he's going to be cheap. Why couldn't that guy get playing time?
    First time in a long time, I've been happy with the team that was constructed, and now they struggle. I blame the coach.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    Here's how Bird can rectify things.

    Step 1: Trade PG13 to the Celtics for the #1 pick. Draft Markelle Fultz
    Step 2: Sign Gordon Hayward to max contract
    Step 3: Let Teague walk.
    Step 4: Trade Monta or Jefferson

    Would love to see Reddick, but likely 0 chance that happens. Need some 3&D guys. I'd take a flier on Terrence Jones as he's going to be cheap. Why couldn't that guy get playing time?
    JJ is washed up. Not even being effective in these playoffs. Plus he's injury prone.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    For those knocking our roster, if we added a real big man would that answer some of the issues? I'm of the opinion that we have a real talented roster and some "tweeks" are required. For example if we added Brook Lopez at Centre?

    Teague
    Stephenson
    George
    Turner
    Lopez

    Wouldnt that be a huge upgrade there? It is also a realistic open given that Lopez needs to get out of Brooklyn as he's probably not in their long term plans.
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Our roster isn't total garbage, though it is a bit unbalanced. We have some talent. But it's not on par with super teams like Cleveland and Golden State. Not to mention that the coaching is suspect.
    I still think that's still wayyy too kind of an analysis.

    Yeah, it's not total garbage, but we have very limited room for growth internally and our primary hope in that aspect, Turner, is playing preeeetty bad in this series. Im just pinning hope that he will get stronger and added needed experience, beying just 21 years old.

    We are a playoff team, but its a team IMHO that's not just a notch below the real contenders, it's IMHO a team that makes the playoffs, but thats about it, maybe once in a number of years we get to the second round if we have all things go right. THATS IT. And then we got a crap pick in the draft. Awesome outlook. I'm not content with that.

    And the coaching and team composition and our identity as a team.... yeah, lets not even go there....
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  31. #148
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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    For those knocking our roster, if we added a real big man would that answer some of the issues? I'm of the opinion that we have a real talented roster and some "tweeks" are required. For example if we added Brook Lopez at Centre?

    Teague
    Stephenson
    George
    Turner
    Lopez

    Wouldnt that be a huge upgrade there? It is also a realistic open given that Lopez needs to get out of Brooklyn as he's probably not in their long term plans.
    If you think our rebounding is bad now with Myles wait till you get view of Brook Lopez rebounding. Now Robyn Lopez on the other hand....


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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    For those knocking our roster, if we added a real big man would that answer some of the issues? I'm of the opinion that we have a real talented roster and some "tweeks" are required. For example if we added Brook Lopez at Centre?

    Teague
    Stephenson
    George
    Turner
    Lopez

    Wouldnt that be a huge upgrade there? It is also a realistic open given that Lopez needs to get out of Brooklyn as he's probably not in their long term plans.
    Same as Melo. Lopez on this team only if the other team takes Al Jeff and Monta and nothing more

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    Default Re: Larry Bird Ruined The Indiana Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    Need some 3&D guys. I'd take a flier on Terrence Jones as he's going to be cheap. Why couldn't that guy get playing time?
    Jones has missed huge amounts of games with injuries for years now, I'd stay clear of him.
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