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Thread: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    I don't think PG is perfect though. He's definitely a superstar in my eyes, but he also has work to do with his body language and throwing his hands up about calls in-game. His teammates feed off that, and I think he needs to let his body language and composure still show that, 'Hey guys, we've still got this...'. However, that's still something he can grow into as he's still only what, 26 years old? It's not until guys are 27 or 28 that I expect them to be who be 'veteran leaders'.
    This is my biggest gripe. He's not a good leader. He's giving everything on the court, and I know his post-game comments are meant to be motivating. But his leadership on the court is very poor. It's a big reason Lance pairs so well with PG. Lance is vocal, energetic, and hard-nosed. He has his flaws also, and if he's your "team leader," you're not in great shape. But PG needs to have a vocal leader to accompany his All-NBA performance, or it's all wasted. McMillan is not that guy. Teague is not that guy. As much as I'd like Hayward, I honestly don't know if he is or not. What we need is an All-Star player that can fill the vocal leader role. Mark Jackson wasn't as good as Reggie, but they paired well together for the same reason.

    And the more tied we are to PG, the more I worry that our fate will be the same as it was with Reggie. Perennial 2nd Placers. Of course, right now, consistently challenging for 2nd would be great. Or, consistently doing anything. I'm ranting...

    You have to pay him, or you have to get an absolute king's ransom for him. His talent is clearly worth the max, but it's got to be paired with the right complimentary players.
    It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    He's the most talented NBA Pacer, without question.
    I disagree, I think JO and Artest both were equally as talented. I think the taint of the brawl and post-brawl era clouds some people's judgements with those two.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I disagree, I think JO and Artest both were equally as talented. I think the taint of the brawl and post-brawl era clouds some people's judgements with those two.
    I always compare JO to PG in the way of they both want to be the man. They want to be the voice, the leader of the pack but really don't know how to. Plus thye both weren't afraid to through teammates under the bus

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I disagree, I think JO and Artest both were equally as talented. I think the taint of the brawl and post-brawl era clouds some people's judgements with those two.
    I'll give you top-of-his-game, 55-point JO. He was an MVP candidate. I think the injuries and the black hole he became on offense take away some of that shine.

    Artest, though, didn't have half the offensive game PG does. All-world defender, and capable on offense. But he could never carry a team's offense like PG does, and PG can bring All-Star defense to go with it.
    It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Horford is making 30mil right now, PG is worth it even though I prefer to let him go and get something in return.
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  10. #81

    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    He is to the right team but not our small market team on a budget. Trade him for the best young package & free up that cap space. We'll be fine.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by jrwannabe View Post
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    I always compare JO to PG in the way of they both want to be the man. They want to be the voice, the leader of the pack but really don't know how to. Plus thye both weren't afraid to through teammates under the bus
    I think PG is already a better leader than JO was. JO was cliquey and never really got on the same page with Artest.

    However, I think some of the leadership things are overblown. Just because you're the best player doesn't mean you always have to be the leader, Reggie was our best player, but it was arguably Mark Jackson who was the voice of the team--as Reggie spoke with his play and results. I think the Pacers were hoping that Al Jefferson could be a 'David West' like veteran for this team and give us another voice, but a guy doesn't carry as much weight when he's unplayable in a series.

    I think the Pacers could use some 'Richard Jefferson' like role players, who've played in a lot of big games. Because when things started snowballing last night, no one was able to slow down the once small snowball from rolling down the hill and becoming an avalanche. It's like guys stood around waiting for someone to take charge, and PG couldn't do it all---and started to get frustrated with the calls and double teams.

    I think just having someone like David West last night--just purely from a mental and leadership standpoint would've helped dramatically more than whatever Monta Ellis said he did on the court last night.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    Not quite worth it statistically, but when you consider the effect that losing PG would have on the other players, the fanbase, potential free agents, etc, it's a no brainer.
    Star free agents have not exactly been beating a path to the Pacer's door to play WITH Paul either.

    To me, the first things Paul has to do to approach being worth that money are quit *****ing to the officials, and quit talking poorly about your teammates.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Just for clarification to anyone saying "no", are you saying that if given the choice between offering PG a 35% max offer or watching him walk away as a free agent, you would choose the later?

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    Just for clarification to anyone saying "no", are you saying that if given the choice between offering PG a 35% max offer or watching him walk away as a free agent, you would choose the later?
    I am waffling between 35% Max and option C, trade him for the best offer we can get in 2.5 months.
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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    I don't think there is anyone who would be in favor of letting PG walk away for nothing. If necessary, we should give him the MAX offer and then trade him for a package of young talent and picks. The idea of letting Paul just walk , to me, means we have no intention of ever trying to be a serious contender in the Eastern Conference, let alone the League .

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    Just for clarification to anyone saying "no", are you saying that if given the choice between offering PG a 35% max offer or watching him walk away as a free agent, you would choose the later?
    I'd give him max before letting him walk. But given the choice, I'd take a young talent, couple picks and a serviceable filler over both above options.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    I think the "trade him" viewpoint is fair, and I have been in that camp for a while. I just wasn't sure since it seems like a different question than the one asked here.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    Star free agents have not exactly been beating a path to the Pacer's door to play WITH Paul either.

    To me, the first things Paul has to do to approach being worth that money are quit *****ing to the officials, and quit talking poorly about your teammates.
    Everyone whines to the refs though. Most of them are old enough to be your grandfather. The NBA seems to have the same problem most Police Departments have. A shortage of new recruits. The end result in both cases is people working way past their expiration date.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Is the problem with both examples the lack of recruits or the lack of retirements from the ranks? Referees have a pretty good life of their own, if I understand the position correctly. I'm assuming the travel pay is pretty good and that they are lodged in pretty nice places as well being wined and dined. People are living longer and healthier than ever and are not willing to live on retirement pay as long as they can keep their day job.
    All that being said, I feel the game would be much improved if the Refs were a lot more "no nonsense" with the players. The NBA is about professionals playing the game at the highest lever, entertaining the paying customers, and at least trying to be a role model to young kids. The constant, infantile complaining about every call on both ends is just and unneeded distraction, imo. Refs should have and use the technical fouls to control the emotional outburst of players, including the SUPERSTRARS who whine about every call or lack thereof. Toss'em Ref!

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Worth it? No... The NBA operates with an unsustainable business model that will eventually burst in one form or another.
    Is that his market value with the current business model of the NBA? Yes....
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    I think the "trade him" viewpoint is fair, and I have been in that camp for a while. I just wasn't sure since it seems like a different question than the one asked here.
    My original intent of the thread was to ask if it makes sense to have one guy make 35% for a team that refuses to pay the tax. If the pacers won't spend to surround PG with talent to compete then I'd rather have the picks that would come in a trade. I think that would make a more compelling team and honestly a team with a better chance to eventually compete than a team with of and a bunch of scrubs.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    Is the problem with both examples the lack of recruits or the lack of retirements from the ranks? Referees have a pretty good life of their own, if I understand the position correctly. I'm assuming the travel pay is pretty good and that they are lodged in pretty nice places as well being wined and dined. People are living longer and healthier than ever and are not willing to live on retirement pay as long as they can keep their day job.
    All that being said, I feel the game would be much improved if the Refs were a lot more "no nonsense" with the players. The NBA is about professionals playing the game at the highest lever, entertaining the paying customers, and at least trying to be a role model to young kids. The constant, infantile complaining about every call on both ends is just and unneeded distraction, imo. Refs should have and use the technical fouls to control the emotional outburst of players, including the SUPERSTRARS who whine about every call or lack thereof. Toss'em Ref!


    I think the issue is new recruits. Joey Crawford and Dick Bavetta wouldn't have been working into their 60's as refs if the NBA could find replacements to fill their spots. More people want to play in the NBA than ref the game. You can't have frail or flabby guys in their late 50's and 60's running around with 22-27 year old thoroughbreds. Physically they aren't in shape to do the job to the best of their abilities, and they miss calls because they're at "that age" where your vision starts to fail by nature. Oh by the way, they also have to blow a whistle, motion what they're calling, visit the scorers table regularly, make sure the mop boy cleans up wet spots, etc. That's too much responsibility for men that old in a young mans game. Refs should be hired at 29 or older and forced to hang up the whistle at 55.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by DieHard View Post
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    My original intent of the thread was to ask if it makes sense to have one guy make 35% for a team that refuses to pay the tax. If the pacers won't spend to surround PG with talent to compete then I'd rather have the picks that would come in a trade. I think that would make a more compelling team and honestly a team with a better chance to eventually compete than a team with of and a bunch of scrubs.
    I guess I was answering the tittle question directly which is about as easy of a "yes" as you can get. There are people here that are ok signing Teague to 20% to 25% of the cap but flinch at signing PG to 35%. It's crazy. PG and a random poster from Pacers Digest is far more valuable than any number of Jeff freaking Teagues you could have on your roster.

    That said if you want to expand the question, I still think trading PG is probably for the best and it has very little to do with his salary. It is more about not having any realistic avenues to improve the team before his contract is up outside of trading PG.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    I guess I was answering the tittle question directly which is about as easy of a "yes" as you can get. There are people here that are ok signing Teague to 20% to 25% of the cap but flinch at signing PG to 35%. It's crazy. PG and a random poster from Pacers Digest is far more valuable than any number of Jeff freaking Teagues you could have on your roster.

    That said if you want to expand the question, I still think trading PG is probably for the best and it has very little to do with his salary. It is more about not having any realistic avenues to improve the team before his contract is up outside of trading PG.
    My hope would be that with Paul locked in for five years another star player along with some solid role players (Teague is a good example) would take a contract with Indiana and make a run. Not sure Simon will pay what it takes to do it though. I've been a Pacer fan for 23 seasons but if Paul walks at the end of next year and we get nothing for him I won't be more than a casual fan.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by DieHard View Post
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    My hope would be that with Paul locked in for five years another star player along with some solid role players (Teague is a good example) would take a contract with Indiana and make a run. Not sure Simon will pay what it takes to do it though. I've been a Pacer fan for 23 seasons but if Paul walks at the end of next year and we get nothing for him I won't be more than a casual fan.
    I'm not sure that another star player even gets us there unless that star is a Durant or Curry level star. Maybe if Turner develops into something special as well and quickly.

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    I think the "trade him" viewpoint is fair, and I have been in that camp for a while. I just wasn't sure since it seems like a different question than the one asked here.
    BTW......if PG13 doesn't get the Super MAX Extension and he doesn't sign the standard Pacers MAX Contract offer that the Pacers offer him.....I think that there is a good chance that Bird will end up letting PG13 walk for nothing.

    IMHO.....I don't think that Bird will be able to pull some magic rabbit out of his hat to build the Pacers into a Near Elite Team that the Pacers MUST BE in order to compete against the Cavs in the next 3 months. Ignoring that I have very little confidence in Bird's ability to surround PG13 with the right type of Players ( see the AlJeff, Monta and Stuckey signings over the last couple of seasons ) to get over this hill, his vision for this Team and the fact that Nate McMillan will likely still be in the HC seat come November 2017 ( see, a huge laundry list already ).....this Team has too many flaws and issues to address to fix in 1 season.
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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    It seems rather hopeless when it all comes down to needing basically two consistent AS-level players as your foundation for championship contention. I've followed the Pacers since the 80s and that's something we've never had. If you get something good for PG, which is not a given at this point, but say a top 3 pick. Said high pick develops into an elite player (best-case scenario here). We're still back to how do you get that other high-level talent. Of course, same conundrum if PG stays. Small-market, non-big-time FA destination curse.
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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    I think the idea that the Pacers can easily get someone who tosses up 36/9/15 with practically no help from the rest of his team in a single draft or as a part of a trade package from another team is ridiculous. This guy was high scorer, high assist maker, and high rebounder for the team in the last game and we're thinking replacements are a dime a dozen?
    BillS

    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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    Default Re: Is Paul George WORTH 35% of the cap?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I think the idea that the Pacers can easily get someone who tosses up 36/9/15 with practically no help from the rest of his team in a single draft or as a part of a trade package from another team is ridiculous. This guy was high scorer, high assist maker, and high rebounder for the team in the last game and we're thinking replacements are a dime a dozen?
    By trading him, you aren't trying to replace him. You trade him in hopes that you get multiple players that make the team better. Basketball is a team sport. Let's say you get Brown and Fultz for PG. Brown is no where close to PG but is a lot cheaper. Fultz can be your future point. so you can let Teague walk. The savings between Teague and PG being gone let's you get solid role players to strengthen your bench (if Bird signs the right players, big "IF"). The IFs are what would make it work. Cause Fultz, Brown, Zellar plus whatever else (likely a late first or the rights to Nader plus a 2nd) won't give you what it takes to replace PG's production. But, you don't have 1/3rd of the cap space eaten up by one player.

    Dream would be to trade PG and sign Hayward. But not sure Hayward would sign without PG here.

    Fultz/Lance/Hayward/Thad/Turner

    Ellis/1st/Brown/Hans/Seraphin(or Zellar)

    Nader/Niang or Christmas/Jefferson/pick/Seraphin or Zellar

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