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Thread: Vogel had it right?

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    Default Vogel had it right?

    At the start of the season, I thought Turner at Center and TYoung at PF would work out okay. We had a stretch 4 and stretch 5. We could run the floor and space the floor. We may be a little down on rebounding, but I thought we would be okay.

    After nearly a full season of watching this team I still think Turner can turn out to be a good Center, but I think he is more suited as a PF. I think we should try and emulate what San Antonio does, playing with 2 bigs. Turner can take the role of Aldridge, George can take the role of Leonard. We just need to find guys to fill the other roles, which I don't think should be terribly difficult.

    Frank Vogel trying to play Mahinmi and Turner together last year was clearly a good idea last year...it may also be a good model to follow in the future. Obviously Mahinimi is overpaid, so letting him walk was a good idea, but we should have found a similar player to replace him.

    This is just my opinion and not that of staff or management.

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    Indy not China BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    So you are saying that size matters? I would have to agree!

    Small, fast ball can only work if you have lights out shooting and we shoot the least number of threes in the NBA with the exception of two teams.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    I've always been of the opinion that you shouldn't start 2 stretch front court players and you can't keep a stretch 4 and 5 on the court for very long together. For the most part stretch pf's or centers are weaker with poor post play on both offense and defense. You could always wish for a unicorn but I can't think of a physical banger in the paint that can really stretch the floor. IMO we have to find an enforcer to pair with Turner, weather you want to call that player a pf or c doesn't really matter. Turner may someday develop into a modern era Rik Smits but he'll always need a Dale Davis type of player to protect him.
    Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

    Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    I thought the Seraphin/Turner combo worked well. I just wish Thad was quicker so we could play him at the 3 more. But Nate loves him some Thad and I think plays him too much given that he is nursing an injury

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Yes, tanking in Orlando is the way to go
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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Yes.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    The thought of Myles at PF used to make me cringe, but now I'm all for it. He needs a banger who can rebound playing next to him.

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    Indy not China BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    The thought of Myles at PF used to make me cringe, but now I'm all for it. He needs a banger who can rebound playing next to him.
    Agree and would say this was obvious early this year.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    This where my hemming and hawing about the 28 million in Monta, Stuckey and Al comes in. You could have kept Ian and made the Thad and Teague deals. Obviously Ian's injuries make that a "bad" thing in hindsight but it would have been a better move from a purely team building stand point and regardless it illustrates why those 3 bench deals really hurt the Pacers.



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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    I thought it was pretty much consensus that Myles doesn't step out to defend the perimeter well? That is a necessity to playing the 4 in the NBA right now.

    I think the Pacers need a big who can bring some toughness, but I don't see any reason it can't be a traditional 4 who can also guard the position. Myles is a 5.
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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    People still want Ian? lol
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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I thought it was pretty much consensus that Myles doesn't step out to defend the perimeter well? That is a necessity to playing the 4 in the NBA right now.

    I think the Pacers need a big who can bring some toughness, but I don't see any reason it can't be a traditional 4 who can also guard the position. Myles is a 5.
    It seems to me that if San Antonio can be successful with Aldridge/Gasol and Dedmon, we should be able to be successful with Turner playing a lot at the 4.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    This where my hemming and hawing about the 28 million in Monta, Stuckey and Al comes in. You could have kept Ian and made the Thad and Teague deals. Obviously Ian's injuries make that a "bad" thing in hindsight but it would have been a better move from a purely team building stand point and regardless it illustrates why those 3 bench deals really hurt the Pacers.
    I think Monta has been good this year, he and Stuckey actually have been a positive on the floor together.

    The issue is Al Jefferson. Like you said Ian could have been a mistake as well, but still would have been better to get a defensive athletic big.

    I don't know. Because I'm more optimistic I'm hoping the bench pulls it together for the playoffs. I know it's not likely but I'll save harsh criticism until then.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    But you guys. Myles is 20.

    He may not look like a center going up against 30 year old men like Valacunas but that's how he learns. He will get bigger and stronger and playing against bigs and getting playoff games will make him better.

    Be patient, he can't even go into a bar.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Stuckey and Monta have not been positive on the floor together. There is a reason Stuckey did not play last night



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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Stuckey and Monta have not been positive on the floor together. There is a reason Stuckey did not play last night


    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are a perfect match. But I wouldn't use Stuckey not playing to prove any point. Al Jefferson played.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    He may not look like a center going up against 30 year old men like Valacunas but that's how he learns.
    Jonas Valančiūnas is 24 years old.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishPacer View Post
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    Empty vessels make the most noise.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Jonas Valančiūnas is 24 years old.
    Sorry, meant to list several center like Gasols. But you get my point. He is going up against grown men.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    But you guys. Myles is 20.

    He may not look like a center going up against 30 year old men like Valacunas but that's how he learns. He will get bigger and stronger and playing against bigs and getting playoff games will make him better.

    Be patient, he can't even go into a bar.
    Good point, but when has any of us on PD been patient.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are a perfect match. But I wouldn't use Stuckey not playing to prove any point. Al Jefferson played.
    Stuckey is in a major funk. Not sure if he's afraid to get hurt again or what. If he returns to his bulldog self, this team can be dangerous. But right now, he just isn't himself.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Funny...I actually switched opinions. I wanted Turner to play the PF when the season began, but now I'm comfortable with Turner playing as the C. He'll only get better with time. Also, I REALLY like Thad Young at the PF, and I just think the wrist injury is affecting his play as of late. Honestly, the only problem I see (which it's been pretty much all season) is figuring out how to get the home team on the road. The days of having a Dale Davis type player is over. You need mobile players at all positions, and the Spurs and Grizzlies are more the exception than the rule. There's no way a banger would be able to grab rebounds while defending the perimeter AND post at the same time. Embrace the new NBA. Turner, KAT, KP, and other are the new generation of bigs who are spacing the floor with their perimeter shooting.


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    There's no way a banger would be able to grab rebounds while defending the perimeter AND post at the same time. Embrace the new NBA. Turner, KAT, KP, and other are the new generation of bigs who are spacing the floor with their perimeter shooting.
    Other teams get it done.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Embrace the new NBA. Turner, KAT, KP, and other are the new generation of bigs who are spacing the floor with their perimeter shooting.
    It's funny that you say that because KAT and KP both share the frontcourt with bigs that are of the defensive and rebounding variety.

    Whether you want to call Myles a PF or a C, it's apparent that he needs to be paired with a player of similar ilk. Thad Young is not an ideal fit as the starting frontcourt partner with Myles.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    This idea that you can win in this league without a physical frontcourt baffles me.

    Even GS and Cleveland have big, physical frontcourts that are able to battle the boards and protect the rim.

    As skilled as Draymond Green and Kevin Love may be offensively, they both rebound the hell out of the ball. They both also play with bigs who rebound the ball well also.

    "Small ball" doesn't mean that you give up an emphasis on those things. It just means having a lineup that features players with diverse skills.

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    Default Re: Vogel had it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    This idea that you can win in this league without a physical frontcourt baffles me.

    Even GS and Cleveland have big, physical frontcourts that are able to battle the boards and protect the rim.

    As skilled as Draymond Green and Kevin Love may be offensively, they both rebound the hell out of the ball. They both also play with bigs who rebound the ball well also.

    "Small ball" doesn't mean that you give up an emphasis on those things. It just means having a lineup that features players with diverse skills.
    Haha, watching my 3rd grade son play in his travel league tonight was a potent reminder that "size matters", as he played against a team of 4th and 5th graders. Can't rebound if everyone has inches on your frontcourt players.

    It's as self explanatory as any concept in basketball.

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