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Thread: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

  1. #26

    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    A motivated PG? Near the top of the list.

    The PG we get during the regular season that takes many games off, complains to refs, doesn't seem interested? A lot of other players.

    I know who PG can be, but that is not a representation of the player we get during the regular season. We need for him to be a leader and I've never gotten that vibe from him.

    I think if we had a team that was capable of competing, he'd be more dialed in. I think he knows this team isn't very good and so he doesn't wanna put 100% into it.
    That's fair. I fully agree with you we need a better leader. David West was kind of that guy before. Do you think there's any chance because we have a guy like PG getting the 6 or 7 seed that we knock off the Celtics or Wiz and make the ECF? Or no chance? Because as long as there is a chance of that happening that's what matters. And in my eyes and seems like yours too, Playoff PG gives us that chance.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    So, Paul George's offensive rating and defensive rating have each gone down over his last 3 full seasons. Offensive not much, defensive significantly. Do those count? Or do they not really work now because it doesn't fit your point?
    Do you know how each rating is figured?

    A defrtg cannot accurately measure an individual's defensive impact. It can measure a team's. I agree with defrtg if it's used for a team, and not an individual, because of that fact.
    Offrtgs for a team and an individual use two different equations. One is used with team stats and the other is used with individual stats, so they can show the difference between team and individual.

    I don't place all advanced stats in the same box and judge them together. I look at how each stat is computed and then make the determination if I agree with it afterwards. But please continue down this road.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

  3. #28

    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    I dont think PG wants to be here. I dont think he plays like he wants to be here. Because of this is value is going down so if we do trade him, we wont get much. And if we gamble and hope he re-signs, we are either overpaying for the guy or we will lose him for nothing. The Pacers and the fans are in a no win situation right now and it sucks. And i put a lot of that on PG.

    I mean, do you think he's come anywhere near the level of play he played against Toronto? If not then why?
    I think he tries to be Lebron sometimes and wants to be a guy on a team that can take days off and still be comfortably in the playoffs in a good position. When you see guys like LBJ get rewarded for being on loaded teams and being able to kind of slack on defense from time to time then you wanna do the same things. Problem is Pg isn't as good as Lebron and Pacers aren't as good as the Cavs. With that said- as long as we play well enough to get in and PG turns it on - then its better than not having Paul at all and turning him into potential solid players. We need Paul and we need one more piece to compete these next 5 years while Lebron ages.

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  5. #29
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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    That's fair. I fully agree with you we need a better leader. David West was kind of that guy before. Do you think there's any chance because we have a guy like PG getting the 6 or 7 seed that we knock off the Celtics or Wiz and make the ECF? Or no chance? Because as long as there is a chance of that happening that's what matters. And in my eyes and seems like yours too, Playoff PG gives us that chance.
    I don't think so.

    Our advantage last year was while PG was carrying the load offensively, we had guys like George Hill, Solomon Hill, and Ian Mahinmi busting their butt defensively as well. We don't have those guys now and I think we will struggle to defend teams to the same degree as we did in the playoffs last year.

    However, for arguments sake, lets say we do upset a team. Its highly unlikely we upset two teams and there is no chance in hell we get by the Cavs. We are the definition of a treadmill team right now and we are not a realistic piece or two away from changing that.

    I've said this before, but I'll say it again. If this were a game of poker, we are holding an Ace High. Sure, the Ace is great, but if he doesn't have other good cards around him, he is worthless. The Cavs have a Royal Flush, the Raptors have a Full House, the Celtics have a straight, and so on.

    We've lost. Time to fold the hand and hope we can get some better cards around Turner, who may turn into an Ace himself someday.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Do you know how each rating is figured?

    A defrtg cannot accurately measure an individual's defensive impact. It can measure a team's. I agree with defrtg if it's used for a team, and not an individual, because of that fact.
    Offrtgs for a team and an individual use two different equations. One is used with team stats and the other is used with individual stats, so they can show the difference between team and individual.

    I don't place all advanced stats in the same box and judge them together. I look at how each stat is computed and then make the determination if I agree with it afterwards. But please continue down this road.
    How about the fact that Paul George's man typically shoots better against him than their season average? Does this count?

    I just find it incredibly hard to believe that anyone would argue that the defense we have gotten from Paul George this year is remotely close to the defense we used to get from him.

  7. #31

    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    I don't think so.

    Our advantage last year was while PG was carrying the load offensively, we had guys like George Hill, Solomon Hill, and Ian Mahinmi busting their butt defensively as well. We don't have those guys now and I think we will struggle to defend teams to the same degree as we did in the playoffs last year.

    However, for arguments sake, lets say we do upset a team. Its highly unlikely we upset two teams and there is no chance in hell we get by the Cavs. We are the definition of a treadmill team right now and we are not a realistic piece or two away from changing that.

    I've said this before, but I'll say it again. If this were a game of poker, we are holding an Ace High. Sure, the Ace is great, but if he doesn't have other good cards around him, he is worthless. The Cavs have a Royal Flush, the Raptors have a Full House, the Celtics have a straight, and so on.

    We've lost. Time to fold the hand and hope we can get some better cards around Turner, who may turn into an Ace himself someday.
    If you're point is correct - wouldn't you rather have that Ace for the next 5 hands, knowing that you have another Ace coming up within the next 3 hands and key pieces around them already in place? PG is 26 and Myles is 21. It's not like they are 32 and 21.

  8. #32

    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Agree 100℅. George is a different beast in the playoffs.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    If you're point is correct - wouldn't you rather have that Ace for the next 5 hands, knowing that you have another Ace coming up within the next 3 hands and key pieces around them already in place? PG is 26 and Myles is 21. It's not like they are 32 and 21.
    Not when that Ace has checked out. "I wanna go be apart of a Royal Flush.", "I'm not having fun.", "I'm mad about not being included in picking the other cards to go with me.", etc.

    If his comments didn't make it pretty clear he isn't happy, his demeanor on the court has.

    Even then though, I think Turner is a good 4 years away from really being that player PG would need next to him to compete. However, we are starting from scratch at every other position too. In 4 years, none of the members from this team should be on the roster, outside of maybe GRIII. Paul George isn't going to be okay with a full rebuild(which is desperately needed), and even then, it takes a lot of time to really find the right pieces to compete for a Championship. We don't have the advantage of just signing another All-Star and competing. We mostly have to build through the draft and trades. Problem is, we don't have any valuable young assets(outside of Turner) to trade and we are going to be picking in the middle of the pack. You can certainly find good players there, but the odds are much more slim. By the time we actually got that team together, Paul George will be declining. He'll likely still be a very good player, but the window would shut more and more each season. I just don't view it as realistic that we could compete for a Championship with him. Not his fault, but its just where our team is right now.
    Last edited by Dr. Awesome; 03-03-2017 at 03:54 PM.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    How about the fact that Paul George's man typically shoots better against him than their season average? Does this count?
    Sure it counts. Defense is a tricky thing to measure though. Yes, opponents shoot better but it could be explained by the fact that PG has to help more. Is that the explanation? IDK. But individual defense is hard to measure because it's so dependent on the team. We can look also look at on/off numbers. Last year the team was 1.5 worse defensively (opponent offrtg) with him off the floor. This year it's 1.1 worse.

    Or we can look at 82games counterpart production and see things like he's giving up 19.9pts to his offensive counterpart this season and 20.1 this season (at the SF position).


    This is what I mean about looking at all the information and not just the one side of it. When judging defense, hell anything for that matter, it's best to gather as much information as possible.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Sure it counts. Defense is a tricky thing to measure though. Yes, opponents shoot better but it could be explained by the fact that PG has to help more. Is that the explanation? IDK. But individual defense is hard to measure because it's so dependent on the team. We can look also look at on/off numbers. Last year the team was 1.5 worse defensively (opponent offrtg) with him off the floor. This year it's 1.1 worse.

    Or we can look at 82games counterpart production and see things like he's giving up 19.9pts to his offensive counterpart this season and 20.1 this season (at the SF position).


    This is what I mean about looking at all the information and not just the one side of it. When judging defense, hell anything for that matter, it's best to gather as much information as possible.
    I'm aware defense is more difficult to measure in stats. However, its easy to use the eye test to see he has not been remotely close to as good as he used to be.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Well my eye test tells me he is, so if the eye test is the deciding factor where do we go?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Well my eye test tells me he is, so if the eye test is the deciding factor where do we go?
    I think at that point you're just a lost cause. ;-)

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    When he wants to be, he's the same A+ defender he's always been. It's just effort.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    That's fair. I fully agree with you we need a better leader. David West was kind of that guy before. Do you think there's any chance because we have a guy like PG getting the 6 or 7 seed that we knock off the Celtics or Wiz and make the ECF? Or no chance? Because as long as there is a chance of that happening that's what matters. And in my eyes and seems like yours too, Playoff PG gives us that chance.
    If our bench keeps clicking the way it is, we can make some noise in the playoffs if PG steps up and the starting unit can build or hold a lead. Right now, our bench is keeping us in games (god, when is the last time you can say that about a Pacers's bench?)

  18. #40
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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Wasn't Reggie Miller always judged by playoff performance? Didn't Reggie complain too much to refs?

    Trading PG would be a massive mistake. Pacers will go 10 years trying to find someone as good as him.

    Great that so many of you seem to know that PG doesn't want to be here, and that so many of you know he will bolt in free agency. Wonder if you can go to Vegas and put your money where your mouth is.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Wasn't Reggie Miller always judged by playoff performance? Didn't Reggie complain too much to refs?

    Trading PG would be a massive mistake. Pacers will go 10 years trying to find someone as good as him.

    Great that so many of you seem to know that PG doesn't want to be here, and that so many of you know he will bolt in free agency. Wonder if you can go to Vegas and put your money where your mouth is.
    I see the word "think" everywhere except in this post.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Wasn't Reggie Miller always judged by playoff performance? Didn't Reggie complain too much to refs?

    Trading PG would be a massive mistake. Pacers will go 10 years trying to find someone as good as him.

    Great that so many of you seem to know that PG doesn't want to be here, and that so many of you know he will bolt in free agency. Wonder if you can go to Vegas and put your money where your mouth is.
    Are you going to go put money on him staying?

    If not, you really shouldn't be telling others to put their money where their mouth is.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Wasn't Reggie Miller always judged by playoff performance? Didn't Reggie complain too much to refs?

    Trading PG would be a massive mistake. Pacers will go 10 years trying to find someone as good as him.

    Great that so many of you seem to know that PG doesn't want to be here, and that so many of you know he will bolt in free agency. Wonder if you can go to Vegas and put your money where your mouth is.
    **** Vegas, what do you want to bet me?

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    Are you going to go put money on him staying?

    If not, you really shouldn't be telling others to put their money where their mouth is.
    No, because I have never said he is staying and I have never said he is leaving. I have said No one knows, and I don't think PG knows either.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    No, because I have never said he is staying and I have never said he is leaving. I have said No one knows, and I don't think PG knows either.
    Well then, **** us for having opinions, right?

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    PacersDigest.com: A place where you're only allowed to not know what will actually happen. Any speculation will be met with hostility by a mod.

  28. #47

    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    PacersDigest.com: A place where you're only allowed to not know what will actually happen. Any speculation will be met with hostility by a mod.
    Welcome to my world. God forbid i want another direction to be taken by this team. All hell breaks loose then.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    When he wants to be, he's the same A+ defender he's always been. It's just effort.
    No way in **** do I want to give a max contract to somebody who won't bring it every night.

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  31. #49
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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    I like playoff Paul George. Regular season Paul George flips between good and inconsistent/careless.

    I do feel like this current team, if they get to the post-season, could be a different animal, and could go deep. PG is a large part of that. I do have confidence in his post-season impact.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 03-03-2017 at 06:13 PM.
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  33. #50

    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Is there a feeling on here that PG maybe has one foot out the door? I wonder about his commitment sometimes. I think PG feels like the Pacers were going to get better, quicker with his growth, but now maybe looks at a constant changeover in style and/or personnel fit. Of course. I'm probably just being overly concerned what our team would look like if PG were to ask or demand a trade.

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