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Thread: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

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    Default [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/1...e-warriors-nba

    It's a fascinating debate raging across the league right now: How good, really, is Paul George? Before his ghastly leg injury, George was a consensus top-10 or top-12 player. Now, he probably won't qualify for one of six All-NBA forward spots. Toss in all the brilliant guards and unicorn bigs, and where exactly does George rank in the NBA's star hierarchy? Was he really worth all the trade deadline agita?

    He hasn't played with the same fire this season. Only 13 percent of his shots have come at the rim, the lowest mark of his career. His free throws are down, and he's taking more long 2s than ever. He has ceded some of the creative burden to Jeff Teague, and there are nights when he just looks a little off.

    There is even some evidence that his vaunted defense has slipped. His adjusted plus-minus numbers are mediocre, and opposing players are shooting above their averages when George is nearby, per NBA.com.
    He has developed a maddening habit of drifting too far from dangerous shooters when he doesn't need to, leaving them open even on the strong side -- one short pass away:

    It's almost as if George assumes he can make up all that distance if he revs into into gear. He can't. He has been too cavalier this season.

    But then you remember what he has done in the postseason hothouse. He drilled high degree of difficulty shots on the biggest stage, in the biggest moments. When he gets angry, George transforms into a lockdown defender -- a long, multi-positional weapon, always on his toes, bouncing in sync with his mark as if he's looking into a mirror. He almost single-handedly eliminated a massively superior Toronto team in the first round last season.

    When it matters, I'm still riding with Paul George.
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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    As I said in the other thread: Pretty much everything I have been saying.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    As I said in the other thread: Pretty much everything I have been saying.
    Feel like this is pretty much what everyone has been saying!!!
    Why so SERIOUS

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Really? View Post
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    Feel like this is pretty much what everyone has been saying!!!
    No, a good number of people here have said they like that PG doesn't give full effort so he can save his energy for the playoffs. A bunch of other people have said PGs effort is there and this is just the player that he is. I've gotten blasted a bunch for saying everything Zach Lowe just said.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Lowe also puts forth facts without context. He's quick to point out that PG is taking less shots at the rim, and more jumpers, but fails to mention that PG is shooting his best % since becoming a high(er) volume shooter. When you only present one side, it doesn't give the full picture of what is actually going on. Those things together is full context of his scoring/shooting rather than just focusing on one side. I'd imagine Dr. would also object if I only pointed out how his FG% is higher. And it would be completely understandable.
    Last edited by Since86; 03-03-2017 at 02:33 PM.
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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Lowe also puts forth facts without context. He's quick to point out that PG is taking less shots at the rim, and more jumpers, but fails to mention that PG is shooting his best % since becoming a high(er) volume shooter. When you only present one side, it doesn't give the full picture of what is actually going on. Those things together is full context of his scoring/shooting rather than just focusing on one side. I'd imagine Dr. would also object if I only pointed out how his FG% is higher. And it would be completely understandable.
    I think his FG% is higher because for the first time since becoming a high volume shooter, he is taking good shots. So many times over the past few years have we seen PG take a long, contested 3 early in the shot clock, a contested fadeaway two, shots on double teams, and so on. He'd make some because he is just a great shooter, but they were always low percentage shots. This year he actually has a coach that will hold him accountable and his shot selection has been much, much better.

    While I think part of the low FG% PG had before should be attributed to his decision making, I think a lot more of it should be attributed to Vogel allowing him to consistently take bad shots. This year is proof that PG could learn to take better shots, he just had to be told to do it.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    I agree with all of it other than thinking the coach really has that much influence on the shot selection. I think that just comes with the territory of your #1 offensive option. I do think he's taking better shots this season, but I think it comes down to him and him being more confident in the personnel around him. I thought he settled a lot last year, and I'm not sure how much was due to his leg and not wanting to really be aggressive and work to get deeper into the defense.

    CJ bettered his to and it wasn't because Nate started busting him about his shots, but rather he paid a scout to give him a scouting report and then adjusted his game from it.
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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Did PG work himself too hard last summer? I remember hearing something before the season started or during the first couple months about how he was drained from the summer. I don't think anyone will dispute his work ethic but perhaps he overworked himself with the Olympics last summer as well. He's looked sluggish (in PG standards) from the start.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    I think he was just looking at trends people have noticed and/or are talking about. Fewer shots at the time-->fewer free throws-->more long twos; just suggesting PG isn't attacking as much and is settling for tougher shots as a result. I don't think he's really making the argument that PG has regressed or anything.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I agree with all of it other than thinking the coach really has that much influence on the shot selection. I think that just comes with the territory of your #1 offensive option. I do think he's taking better shots this season, but I think it comes down to him and him being more confident in the personnel around him. I thought he settled a lot last year, and I'm not sure how much was due to his leg and not wanting to really be aggressive and work to get deeper into the defense.

    CJ bettered his to and it wasn't because Nate started busting him about his shots, but rather he paid a scout to give him a scouting report and then adjusted his game from it.
    Part of it is probably Jeff Teague breaking down the defense which frees up PG a bit more, I agree with that. However, I don't think Vogel ever really got on anyone about their shot selection or lazy passes last year. Our FG% is up, despite Teague not being as good of a shooter as Hill. Our turnovers are also down despite Teague turning the ball over more than Hill. I think the players are being actively taught to value possessions this year, where as they weren't previously.

    Of course, all that is an assumption, I know that, but I called previously that Vogel never held players accountable. We get a new coach and a lot(not all) of my complaints about Vogel's offense are gone.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    We get a new coach and a lot(not all) of my complaints about Vogel's offense are gone.
    And they're putting up pretty much the same offensive efficiency. 104.6 last year compared to 105.3 this year. Probably more to do with newness of Nate, rather than the gains they've made offensively.
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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And they're putting up pretty much the same offensive efficiency. 104.6 last year compared to 105.3 this year. Probably more to do with newness of Nate, rather than the gains they've made offensively.
    I feel like in another thread earlier today you were bashing advanced stats, where as now you are using them. Pick a side.

    So, you don't think Nate has anything to do with us having a better shot selection and having less careless turnovers?

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    No, a good number of people here have said they like that PG doesn't give full effort so he can save his energy for the playoffs. A bunch of other people have said PGs effort is there and this is just the player that he is. I've gotten blasted a bunch for saying everything Zach Lowe just said.
    Eh- some of the times you've gotten blasted you've been way more down on PG than ending your statement with "I'm still rolling with Paul George". Haven't you wanted to trade him before in the past or am I mistaken on that?

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    I cant wait to pay this guy 200 Million because we wont get trade value for him. Also cant wait for him to not accept that 200 million dollar contract.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    Eh- some of the times you've gotten blasted you've been way more down on PG than ending your statement with "I'm still rolling with Paul George". Haven't you wanted to trade him before in the past or am I mistaken on that?
    No, I absolutely want to trade him, but I've always said it has nothing to do with who PG is as a player and everything to do with the state of where this team is right now.

    I've also said I know come playoff time, he will give full effort. Doesn't excuse his lack of effort in a lot of regular season games.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    I feel like in another thread earlier today you were bashing advanced stats, where as now you are using them. Pick a side.

    So, you don't think Nate has anything to do with us having a better shot selection and having less careless turnovers?
    I bashed advanced stats that are based on projections and estimates because there's no way of actually quantifying what they're trying to quantify. I don't have a problem with offensive/defensive ratings in general. If it can be actually measured and observed, then it's good. If you have to fill in holes with estimates and projections, then......
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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    I cant wait to pay this guy 200 Million because we wont get trade value for him. Also cant wait for him to not accept that 200 million dollar contract.
    After the Toronto series last year were you on the trade PG wagon? I'm seriously just wondering if your constant bashing is due to this years regular season performance or if you've been on the Pg isn't that valuable wagon for awhile. I'll say this: Pacers are never getting Steph Curry, Russ Westbrook, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis or the Greek Freak. Aside from those 5 is there anyone that is deserving of a max deal to you?

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    After the Toronto series last year were you on the trade PG wagon? I'm seriously just wondering if your constant bashing is due to this years regular season performance or if you've been on the Pg isn't that valuable wagon for awhile. I'll say this: Pacers are never getting Steph Curry, Russ Westbrook, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis or the Greek Freak. Aside from those 5 is there anyone that is deserving of a max deal to you?
    I've been on this for a while. I reckon i mentioned it a few times last season.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I bashed advanced stats that are based on projections and estimates because there's no way of actually quantifying what they're trying to quantify. I don't have a problem with offensive/defensive ratings in general. If it can be actually measured and observed, then it's good. If you have to fill in holes with estimates and projections, then......
    So, Paul George's offensive rating and defensive rating have each gone down over his last 3 full seasons. Offensive not much, defensive significantly. Do those count? Or do they not really work now because it doesn't fit your point?

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    No, I absolutely want to trade him, but I've always said it has nothing to do with who PG is as a player and everything to do with the state of where this team is right now.

    I've also said I know come playoff time, he will give full effort. Doesn't excuse his lack of effort in a lot of regular season games.
    I gotya- so that's where you and I agree is on who PG is- but don't agree on what the Pacers should do about it. I've been asking this question a lot to a lot of people to get a feel for where Pacer fans rank PG. Who would you rather have? I can name only a handful I'd rather have right now today (Lebron, Westbrook, Curry, Durant) and another handful I'd rather have for the future (A Davis, Greek Freak, etc.). But I think as long as we get in the playoffs, which we will, I'd take Paul over most other superstars. So that's why I don't understand the "trade Pg" talk. Turner will only get better, add one more piece and we have a shot in The east as Lebron ages. No other team besides the Cavs even this year would I be like we have less than 25% chance of beating that team in a series. And the reason I feel we can beat anyone minus Cavs, Spurs, Warriors is because of playoff Paul George.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    After the Toronto series last year were you on the trade PG wagon? I'm seriously just wondering if your constant bashing is due to this years regular season performance or if you've been on the Pg isn't that valuable wagon for awhile. I'll say this: Pacers are never getting Steph Curry, Russ Westbrook, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis or the Greek Freak. Aside from those 5 is there anyone that is deserving of a max deal to you?
    If PG has a good game, Foul on Smits declares MVP, if he has a bad game Foul on Smits doesn't think he is worthy of the NBDL.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    I've been on this for a while. I reckon i mentioned it a few times last season.
    I see I see- I was truthfully just wondering if there's been any back and forth with that opinion or if that's been your thoughts for awhile. Interesting. Agree to disagree. I don't see a team like the Sixers (who are loaded with young talent because of tanking) - getting to where we got with G Hill, Lance, PG, West and Roy. And I think we're closer to being that good again than people think and in 3 years Lebron won't be in our way anymore and Paul will only be 29.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    I see I see- I was truthfully just wondering if there's been any back and forth with that opinion or if that's been your thoughts for awhile. Interesting. Agree to disagree. I don't see a team like the Sixers (who are loaded with young talent because of tanking) - getting to where we got with G Hill, Lance, PG, West and Roy. And I think we're closer to being that good again than people think and in 3 years Lebron won't be in our way anymore and Paul will only be 29.
    I definitely think we are a lot closer to contending with Paul than we would be without him, but I think he's going to bolt in free agency. Hence my seat on the "trade PG" wagon.

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    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    I gotya- so that's where you and I agree is on who PG is- but don't agree on what the Pacers should do about it. I've been asking this question a lot to a lot of people to get a feel for where Pacer fans rank PG. Who would you rather have? I can name only a handful I'd rather have right now today (Lebron, Westbrook, Curry, Durant) and another handful I'd rather have for the future (A Davis, Greek Freak, etc.). But I think as long as we get in the playoffs, which we will, I'd take Paul over most other superstars. So that's why I don't understand the "trade Pg" talk. Turner will only get better, add one more piece and we have a shot in The east as Lebron ages. No other team besides the Cavs even this year would I be like we have less than 25% chance of beating that team in a series. And the reason I feel we can beat anyone minus Cavs, Spurs, Warriors is because of playoff Paul George.
    A motivated PG? Near the top of the list.

    The PG we get during the regular season that takes many games off, complains to refs, doesn't seem interested? A lot of other players.

    I know who PG can be, but that is not a representation of the player we get during the regular season. We need for him to be a leader and I've never gotten that vibe from him.

    I think if we had a team that was capable of competing, he'd be more dialed in. I think he knows this team isn't very good and so he doesn't wanna put 100% into it.

  35. #25

    Default Re: [ESPN] Zach Lowe on Paul George

    I dont think PG wants to be here. I dont think he plays like he wants to be here. Because of this is value is going down so if we do trade him, we wont get much. And if we gamble and hope he re-signs, we are either overpaying for the guy or we will lose him for nothing. The Pacers and the fans are in a no win situation right now and it sucks. And i put a lot of that on PG.

    I mean, do you think he's come anywhere near the level of play he played against Toronto? If not then why?

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