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Thread: Post game-Pacers Wilt

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Bird did not break up that team. Hibbert, West, and Lance are/were washed. GHill has missed 70 games over the last 3 seasons if he doesn't miss a game the rest of the year. The key players on that team just fell off a cliff.

    It's actually a feather in the cap that Bird moved on from those guys when he did.

    That team also played above their heads. They were never contenders in my book. They bought into a Vogel defensive scheme and that would keep them in games and give them a chance, but their offense was mediocre at best with a tendency to go into long scoring droughts. Even when they were at their best, I was one of the few on here calling Hibbert, Lance and even PG at times over-rated. My Hibbert and Lance observations seem spot on now and even my PG observation may not be far off. He's a great player, but he IS over-rated by most. Hopefully over-rated by opposing GM's this Summer as well. ha!

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    That team also played above their heads. They were never contenders in my book. They bought into a Vogel defensive scheme and that would keep them in games and give them a chance, but their offense was mediocre at best with a tendency to go into long scoring droughts. Even when they were at their best, I was one of the few on here calling Hibbert, Lance and even PG at times over-rated. My Hibbert and Lance observations seem spot on now and even my PG observation may not be far off. He's a great player, but he IS over-rated by most. Hopefully by opposing GM's this Summer. ha!
    I think that team was actually good because it fit together well and the league had not quite figured out to counter Roy Hibbert's rim defense. Once they did that, it was over though. He was a huge part of that team's success.

    But even with that, Lance and Paul were a great tandem. George Hill and Lance Stephenson were great fits in the back court. West was West.

    So I disagree. That was a legitimate contender until Hibbert fell apart. They truly were pushing Miami.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I think that team was actually good because it fit together well and the league had not quite figured out to counter Roy Hibbert's rim defense. Once they did that, it was over though. He was a huge part of that team's success.

    But even with that, Lance and Paul were a great tandem. George Hill and Lance Stephenson were great fits in the back court. West was West.

    So I disagree. That was a legitimate contender until Hibbert fell apart. They truly were pushing Miami.
    OK....I'll meet you halfway. I would say they were a contender and a threat to win it IF they played near perfect ball, but we all know because of their style, their window was only going to be open for a VERY short time. Teams figured them out like you said, plus, the overall style and direction of the league was vastly changing. Pacers window to win a title was literally that one year when they pushed Miami and even then, I still think they played over their heads a bit.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    OK....I'll meet you halfway. I would say they were a contender and a threat to win it IF they played near perfect ball, but we all know because of their style, their window was only going to be open for a VERY short time. Teams figured them out like you said, plus, the overall style and direction of the league was vastly changing. Pacers window to win a title was literally that one year when they pushed Miami and even then, I still think they played over their heads a bit.
    I can buy that...even being a Lance-to-the-death fan. I would describe your last sentence a bit differently. I think they played so well because the fit was near perfect for that set of players. I think the combination of players on that team was ideal for not having a playmaking PG nor a great shooter. We had fantastic defense with that starting unit and 5 solid players on offense along with a superstar level talent and at one time a wall of a man in Roy Hibbert. But yes, it didn't last because some smart people got together and cracked Hibbert's code. It was called ball movement. We all know you could not go straight at Hibbert and even LeBron failed at that.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Sure, but he had a lot of money free up and he used that money poorly. He simply didn't acquire players that fit into a legitimate NBA strategy. He showed he had no idea how to build a team. Even to this day he does not have a shooter.

    He was fortunate to still have Paul George and George Hill but he turned around and traded Hill without having a good fit next to Teague. From Monta, to Stuckey, to CJ, to Chase...he failed time after time to bring in a starting quality SG.

    He wanted to play faster. I really have no idea what he's doing. You cannot play small and not have good shooters in this league.
    But - to be devils advocate - players have to WANT to come here. And, I honestly feel that the top free agents have really never considered Indy as a destination....even when we were good.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    We all know you could not go straight at Hibbert and even LeBron failed at that.
    I have to disagree with this. That Miami series, everyone but Lebron went at Hibbert. Ray Allen, Wade, Chalmers, Norris Cole....hell, there was that one sequence, that I pointed out in the past, where Wade, consecutively, went at Roy in the paint. If Roy backed up, he shot it over him...if Roy stepped to him, he ran right around him for an easy layup. That's when I knew Roy was done.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    I have to disagree with this. That Miami series, everyone but Lebron went at Hibbert. Ray Allen, Wade, Chalmers, Norris Cole....hell, there was that one sequence, that I pointed out in the past, where Wade, consecutively, went at Roy in the paint. If Roy backed up, he shot it over him...if Roy stepped to him, he ran right around him for an easy layup. That's when I knew Roy was done.
    What? Roy's value was rim protection...especially against LeBron. Recall that when Roy left the game and Ian came in (who isn't too bad defensively), LeBron went straight to the rack. Roy's value and effectiveness wasn't so much warding off DWade it was preventing LeBron's frontal assault. The fact LeBron wasn't going at Hibbert, as you mention, was telling.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    What? Roy's value was rim protection...especially against LeBron. Recall that when Roy left the game and Ian came in (who isn't too bad defensively), LeBron went straight to the rack. Roy's value and effectiveness wasn't so much warding off DWade it was preventing LeBron's frontal assault. The fact LeBron wasn't going at Hibbert, as you mention, was telling.
    I agree that Lebron got scared to take on Roy; but if you happen to rewatch any other game in that series, you'll see that everyone else went right at Roy...without fear.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    I have to disagree with this. That Miami series, everyone but Lebron went at Hibbert. Ray Allen, Wade, Chalmers, Norris Cole....hell, there was that one sequence, that I pointed out in the past, where Wade, consecutively, went at Roy in the paint. If Roy backed up, he shot it over him...if Roy stepped to him, he ran right around him for an easy layup. That's when I knew Roy was done.
    Nobody is going to stop those guys. But the fact that Roy consistently had such great success against two all time greats at the height of their powers is telling.

    Roy's demise didn't begin until the entire Bynum and selfish dudes thing. Prior to that, he was very much so a defensive force for the Pacers

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Nobody is going to stop those guys. But the fact that Roy consistently had such great success against two all time greats at the height of their powers is telling.

    Roy's demise didn't begin until the entire Bynum and selfish dudes thing. Prior to that, he was very much so a defensive force for the Pacers
    Way before the Pacers signed Bynum, Hibbert wanted to come off the bench because he thought he wasn't getting enough touches. He had issues before, it wasn't just one or two things.

    Roy was very sensitive, not an athletic big, was slow while the NBA began to spread out and be faster, etc.

    Remember when he posted that all the other bigs in the NBA were his "disciples" copying his verticality? I love Roy but he had his faults. But I still say you could argue he was the most important center in the NBA at his peak.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Stop. Stop. Stop.

    The new NBA is the reason why Hibbert and MOST traditional post centers became worthless.


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Stop. Stop. Stop.

    The new NBA is the reason why Hibbert and MOST traditional post centers became worthless.
    Most traditional centers aren't worthless. Drummond, Howard,Bogut, etc. hell McGee still has value.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Nobody is going to stop those guys. But the fact that Roy consistently had such great success against two all time greats at the height of their powers is telling.

    Roy's demise didn't begin until the entire Bynum and selfish dudes thing. Prior to that, he was very much so a defensive force for the Pacers
    Roy's demise went far beyond Bynum and "selfish dudes". Roy didn't do much to capitalize on his opportunity in 14-15 with Bynum and the selfish dudes out of the picture. Since leaving the Pacers, he has fallen off the face of the Earth. The number 1 reason for Roy's decline seems to be Roy.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Most traditional centers aren't worthless. Drummond, Howard,Bogut, etc. hell McGee still has value.
    Worthless was too harsh of a adjective, but I'm still making the same point. Most of them are being regulated to the first big off the bench.

    I don't consider Howard a "traditional" center. Bogut is meh and doesn't move the needle. Drummond is mostly a rebounder. Ironically, I consider McGee (who I lobbied for two seasons ago) is the best value out of all of them. And yes...His blooper days are behind him.


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Most traditional centers aren't worthless. Drummond, Howard,Bogut, etc. hell McGee still has value.
    Is McGee a traditional? I'd consider him more of a today's style center. He's quick but just clumsy

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Pacers never trusted Hibbert, Bird at some point wanted Nene and then he got Bynum.


    His plan was to sign Nene/West and let Hibbert walk.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 02-27-2017 at 12:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Rudy Gobert, Tyson Chandler, Marc Gasol, Pau Gasol, Joel Embid, Drummond, Valanciunas, Gortat... There are plenty of traditional bigs.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Roy's demise went far beyond Bynum and "selfish dudes". Roy didn't do much to capitalize on his opportunity in 14-15 with Bynum and the selfish dudes out of the picture. Since leaving the Pacers, he has fallen off the face of the Earth. The number 1 reason for Roy's decline seems to be Roy.
    Roy didn't decline or really change at all. The league simply figured him out. He could protect the rim against guys attacking it. Otherwise he's a non-factor on both offense and defense.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    I agree that Lebron got scared to take on Roy; but if you happen to rewatch any other game in that series, you'll see that everyone else went right at Roy...without fear.
    I don't think that's how it worked. The Heat would draw him away from the rim, normally with Bosh shooting from range. The Heat would pass to a player who may well go to the rim but on the weak side. See, there is no way for guys to go straight at Roy. He's way too big and long which is why even LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony failed at that.

    The issue with Roy is that the league figured him out. Pero Antic drew him away from the rim which destroyed his game. What you saw against Atlanta in the playoffs was the death of Roy's game. Even he knew he was done which is why he fell apart.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I don't think that's how it worked. The Heat would draw him away from the rim, normally with Bosh shooting from range. The Heat would pass to a player who may well go to the rim but on the weak side. See, there is no way for guys to go straight at Roy. He's way too big and long which is why even LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony failed at that.

    The issue with Roy is that the league figured him out. Pero Antic drew him away from the rim which destroyed his game. What you saw against Atlanta in the playoffs was the death of Roy's game. Even he knew he was done which is why he fell apart.
    Honestly, I'd suggest watching that series again. Guys were running around whomever was the primary defender (Hill, George, Stephenson), and going right at Roy - exception being Lebron. Roy defended and/or blocked on SOME plays...but there were many plays he was left standing there like: "uhhh, what can I do?" And I'm talking about not only guys like Ray Allen and Wade (which is somewhat understandable), but Mario Chalmers and frickin' Norris Cole! The same Norris Cole who lasted maybe 5 years total in the NBA was running right through our defense and going at Roy. During that series he got ejected for getting into it with Pendergraph. Also during that series, there was a game where three or four consecutive plays in a row (and no, I'm not exaggerating), Wade (whom was supposedly hurt) got by his defender, and got Roy not knowing how to defend him. Like I said before, if Roy backed up, he shot over him. If Roy stepped up to defend him, he ran right around him and layed it in.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    Honestly, I'd suggest watching that series again. Guys were running around whomever was the primary defender (Hill, George, Stephenson), and going right at Roy - exception being Lebron. Roy defended and/or blocked on SOME plays...but there were many plays he was left standing there like: "uhhh, what can I do?" And I'm talking about not only guys like Ray Allen and Wade (which is somewhat understandable), but Mario Chalmers and frickin' Norris Cole! The same Norris Cole who lasted maybe 5 years total in the NBA was running right through our defense and going at Roy. During that series he got ejected for getting into it with Pendergraph. Also during that series, there was a game where three or four consecutive plays in a row (and no, I'm not exaggerating), Wade (whom was supposedly hurt) got by his defender, and got Roy not knowing how to defend him. Like I said before, if Roy backed up, he shot over him. If Roy stepped up to defend him, he ran right around him and layed it in.
    Oh, you mean like this where Hibbert snuffs out Wade?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnuHu3awJiA

    Or this where LeBron fouls Hibbert going to the rack? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I59MqXbsXI8

    Or this where Chalmers is sent back to South Beach by Hibbert?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek5OWZdBOlE

    Here's your boy Norris Cole's highlights. Several involved Hibbert protecting the paint successfully. In each instance, either Hibbert is far from the rim or the shot was a 3. None where he goes at Hibbert with a frontal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvRs66VB8E0

    Why is that? Because the Heat did not have success against Hibbert in the paint. Mind you, I'm the resident Roy Hibbert critic sir. There isn't a single person on Pacers Digest who has been more critical of Roy Hibbert.

    You can deny these as anecdotal examples but I challenge you to find significant evidence to the contrary. Yes, he can get out of position and speed can get by him in some instances. Hibbert's lack of mobility is why his game is done. Yes, Wade could hit some long floaters at times. But Hibbert was almost always a wall in there against all players, not just LeBron. That's why the dude was an all-star, not because of his fantastic falling down offense and poor FG% for a giant C.

    Edit: a few more for your viewing pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axH12cukWPs
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 02-27-2017 at 11:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Oh, you mean like this where Hibbert snuffs out Wade?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnuHu3awJiA

    Or this where LeBron fouls Hibbert going to the rack? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I59MqXbsXI8

    Or this where Chalmers is sent back to South Beach by Hibbert?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek5OWZdBOlE

    Here's your boy Norris Cole's highlights. Several involved Hibbert protecting the paint successfully. In each instance, either Hibbert is far from the rim or the shot was a 3. None where he goes at Hibbert with a frontal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvRs66VB8E0

    Why is that? Because the Heat did not have success against Hibbert in the paint. Mind you, I'm the resident Roy Hibbert critic sir. There isn't a single person on Pacers Digest who has been more critical of Roy Hibbert.

    You can deny these as anecdotal examples but I challenge you to find significant evidence to the contrary. Yes, he can get out of position and speed can get by him in some instances. Hibbert's lack of mobility is why his game is done. Yes, Wade could hit some long floaters at times. But Hibbert was almost always a wall in there against all players, not just LeBron. That's why the dude was an all-star, not because of his fantastic falling down offense and poor FG% for a giant C.

    Edit: a few more for your viewing pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axH12cukWPs

    You showed a few examples, but I also said:

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    Roy defended and/or blocked on SOME plays...but there were many plays he was left standing there like: "uhhh, what can I do?"
    I didn't mean it to be like he was complete garbage (if that's how you took it); but, if you were to watch the whole series, I guarantee there will be just as many instances that back up my claim.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Show proof of Norris Cole "going at Roy Hibbert". Maybe after Roy fell down I suppose but that's not what you are saying. Hibbert would send the ball into the stands if that clown came at him.

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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I don't think that's how it worked. The Heat would draw him away from the rim, normally with Bosh shooting from range. The Heat would pass to a player who may well go to the rim but on the weak side. See, there is no way for guys to go straight at Roy. He's way too big and long which is why even LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony failed at that.

    The issue with Roy is that the league figured him out. Pero Antic drew him away from the rim which destroyed his game. What you saw against Atlanta in the playoffs was the death of Roy's game. Even he knew he was done which is why he fell apart.
    I have always wondered that usually when teams adjust to you that you try and adjust to the adjustment. Is or was there a way to keep Roy useful by scheme or a different player with him.
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    Default Re: Post game-Pacers Wilt

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Show proof of Norris Cole "going at Roy Hibbert". Maybe after Roy fell down I suppose but that's not what you are saying. Hibbert would send the ball into the stands if that clown came at him.
    Go to the 20 second mark and 1 minute mark
    Last edited by pogi; 02-28-2017 at 02:15 PM.

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