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Thread: Political News and Policies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    You know the left has lost the moral side of the abortion debate when they compare sperm to a developing fetus with clearly recognizable human parts that is on its way to being a fully functioning human being. If you think abortion should be legal, then fine, but acting like its the moral equivalent of throwing away some sperm really makes it look like you have some doubts deep down. The sheer absurdity of that speaks for itself. It's like saying that driving a car and driving a boat are the same thing since they both involve steering.

    The left uses this tactic all the time - they try to debate when life "begins" because they want to steer the attention away from the awfulness of the act of abortion.
    So, after reading my post, none of that sunk in? You would label me an awful person for preferring to save my wife's life?
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 07-31-2017 at 05:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Political News and Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    So, after reading my post, none of that sunk in? You would label me an awful person for preferring to save my wife's life?
    Do I really need to preface that I believe in saving the mother's life if that's what it comes to? I'm talking about the abortions that have nothing to do with rape, incest, or saving the mother's life (I.e. The overwhelming majority of them).

    I was directing my post more at Freddie and Vnzla who have talked a bunch about sperm.

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    If someone is pro-choice, then obviously I'm not doing anything to change anyone's minds or vice-versa. I just wish people would own the realities of the position. You lose a ton of credibility when you compare some dried up dead sperm to a fetus that increasingly develops into a fully functioning human by the day. When I read the sperm stuff, the impression I form in my head is that the person is being deliberately blind to the realities of the act so that they can find peace in their position. Sure, that's making an assumption on my part, but we all do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Do I really need to preface that I believe in saving the mother's life if that's what it comes to? I'm talking about the abortions that have nothing to do with rape, incest, or saving the mother's life (I.e. The overwhelming majority of them).
    But you said abortion was a terrible act. And how do you know what the over-whelming majority of them are? Is there a statistic? I somehow doubt that had we been forced to make that terrible decision, it would've been reported to any sort of data collection agency, nor would I have submitted to that.

    I know TONS of people who have pregnancy issues. They happen way more often than I bet you would think, and most people do NOT make their private struggles in these matters public, or even share with most of their family. It's very often a very private matter.
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    Default Re: Political News and Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Do I really need to preface that I believe in saving the mother's life if that's what it comes to? I'm talking about the abortions that have nothing to do with rape, incest, or saving the mother's life (I.e. The overwhelming majority of them).

    I was directing my post more at Freddie and Vnzla who have talked a bunch about sperm.
    How do you know that? also for somebody that wants small government are you trying to tell us that you want the government to make that decision for us?
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    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    How do you know that? also for somebody that wants small government are you trying to tell us that you want the government to make that decision for us?
    Google the Guttmacher Institute study about it. Most mothers who answer fall into the category of not wanting it/not able to afford it. Sure, some people wouldn't want to bring up the fact that they were raped, and I understand that, but why would you answer "don't want to be a single mother", "financial reasons", "done having children", or "not mature enough" if those weren't real reasons. Are these people straight up liars?
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 07-31-2017 at 06:39 PM.

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    I am still waiting on the correct number of abortions performed since the 1970s...
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    Default Re: Political News and Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Google the Guttmacher Institute study about it. Most mothers who answer fall into the category of not wanting it/not able to afford it. Sure, some people wouldn't want to bring up the fact that they were raped, and I understand that, but why would you answer "don't want to be a single mother", "financial reasons", "done having children", or "not mature enough" if those weren't real reasons. Are these people straight up liars?
    There are many reasons for somebody to do that the point is that the government shouldn't be making those decisions for anybody.

    It also seems to me like conservatives love this babies but what is their plans for this babies? how many of this babies are black or brown? Anne Coulter seems to think brown babies shouldn't be born, so what are the type of abortions that matter on this whole argument?

    Are conservatives ready to give social programs to this babies or they just want them to survive by themselves? I mean doing that is socialism so that is forbidden.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    So, after reading my post, none of that sunk in? You would label me an awful person for preferring to save my wife's life?
    Kid. First, when a mother's life is in jeopardy you will find a lot of Christians very understanding of that. I wouldn't paint that brush so broad. Many understand the rape example as well.

    Also, you say: "hypocrisy is one of the terrible traits a person can possess"...yet all you are doing is admonishing others who *you say* judge. Your "hardcore Christian family" is probably tired of you judging them as well. I'm also sure they don't appreciate you describing them as having a "narrow sliver of existence". Your "larger world-view of things" must mean you know better, right? So, we went from hypocrisy to condescending?

    Well, anyway, I read about the US history you are mentioning decades ago. Maybe 40 years ago. I've also been uncomfortable when people try to link Christianity to the USA, so I agree with part of what you say. Still, I'm not demonizing people for it. It's really pretty small stuff compared to eternity...which is what Christians are talking about.

    BTW, rather than go into detail you are basically anti-Republican. That's fine. The Republican Party is no beacon of goodness. Also, you are truly a product of our culture. This is the viewpoint taught in public schools today. Spot on. You clearly do not believe in absolute truth either which is a strong sign of where you stand. That is not so fine if you claim to be a Christian because that is a foundational concept in the Christian Bible...which is a big reason Christians do not fit into the culture in 2017.

    The reality is, people do not want to be convicted. People want to abort. They want to commit adultery. They worship money and power. People don't want to hear the absolute truth. They prefer moral relativism so they can go about their lives without interference. That is why we have this abortion debate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    But you said abortion was a terrible act. And how do you know what the over-whelming majority of them are? Is there a statistic? I somehow doubt that had we been forced to make that terrible decision, it would've been reported to any sort of data collection agency, nor would I have submitted to that.

    I know TONS of people who have pregnancy issues. They happen way more often than I bet you would think, and most people do NOT make their private struggles in these matters public, or even share with most of their family. It's very often a very private matter.
    I think you are extremely naive if you think a large portion of abortions are due to rape or a mother's life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Google the Guttmacher Institute study about it. Most mothers who answer fall into the category of not wanting it/not able to afford it. Sure, some people wouldn't want to bring up the fact that they were raped, and I understand that, but why would you answer "don't want to be a single mother", "financial reasons", "done having children", or "not mature enough" if those weren't real reasons. Are these people straight up liars?
    Note that the 92% is probably higher and the study was done by a PP affiliate. We can discuss the topic of abortion in different ways but claiming a substantial percentage is due to rape or medical reasons is simply not true.

    92% of Women Cite "Social" or "Other" Reasons
    New Study Examines Reasons Women Have Abortions

    By Randall K. O'Bannon, Ph.D.

    Why do women have abortions? For over 15 years, those asking that question have had to rely on a 1987 study that some were concerned might have become outdated in light of the declining number of abortions and shifting abortion demographics.

    Now a new study from the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), Planned Parenthood's special research affiliate, brings our understanding of women's abortion decisions up to date. While showing that women's basic reasons have largely remained the same, the study presents some compelling new data that those reaching out to abortion-prone women will want to consider.

    A couple of conclusions are very apparent from this data. First, those who wish to use the so-called "hard cases" of rape, incest, life of the mother, and genetic disability to argue for the necessity of abortion on demand will continue to find it difficult to make that case based on the reasons women offer for their abortions. Ninety-two percent cited what might be termed "social" or "other" reasons, rather than medical reasons or sexual assault, as the primary basis for their abortions.

    And those who cited medical reasons often appear to have been stating their own opinions (fear that drug or alcohol use may have harmed the baby, inability to handle morning sickness, etc.) rather than reporting any formal diagnosis by a doctor. Less than a percent each of women even mentioned rape or incest as a factor in their abortions at all.

    The 2004 study, which appeared in the September 2005 issue of Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health (formerly Family Planning Perspectives), surveyed 1,209 abortion patients at 11 large abortion centers across the country. The survey was then followed up with in-depth interviews with 38 women at four centers.1

    Women in the first group filled out an eight-page survey identifying their reasons for coming to the clinic, hospital, or doctor's office to have an abortion, and listed their demographic characteristics, such as age, race, income, marital status, etc. Women from the first group who agreed to sit for 30–60 minute recorded interviews discussing those decisions in more detail constituted the second group.

    There were a number of responses women gave to the question as to what was "the most important reason" they had their abortions: they were "not ready for a(nother) child/timing is wrong," cited by 25%; they "can't afford a baby now," cited by 23%; feelings that they had "completed my childbearing/have other people depending on me/children are grown," cited by 19%; and "having relationship problems/don't want to be a single mother" was cited by 8%.

    An additional 7% identified not feeling "mature enough to raise a(nother) child/feel too young," while 4% cited their view that the child "would interfere with education or career plans."

    Notably, only 4% cited a "physical problem with my health" as the main factor in their abortions, while 3% identified "possible problems affecting the health of the fetus" as the most important reason behind their decisions.

    Less than 0.5% cited each of the following reasons as most significant: rape, a husband or partner's desire that a woman have an abortion, parental wishes, or a desire to keep others from knowing the woman had sex or got pregnant. AGI listed the remaining 6% as "other."

    Authors of both the 1987 and 2004 studies took the long list of reasons that women cited and tried to assign them to general categories, though they did not necessarily combine these in the same way. As a consequence, reasons that were grouped together in one category in 1987 may have ended up in different categories in 2004.

    To try and make comparisons possible, authors of the 2004 study went back and recalculated and re-reported the 1987 reasons as they would have been categorized in 2004. Consequently, numbers would not seem to match up for anyone looking at the original 1987 study and the numbers reported for 1987 in the new study, but this is not necessarily a mistake.

    Economic reasons, a feeling of being unable to afford to have a baby, were cited by 23% as the most important reason in 2004 and 21% in 1987. Those citing childbearing concerns or concerns about other dependents as most important jumped from 8% to 19%, while those identifying relationship issues as primary declined (from 13% to 8%).

    Women who cited immaturity as the most important reason also dropped from 11% in 1987 to 7% in 2004 as did educational and career interference (from 10% to 4%). "Other" reasons jumped from 1% to 6%. For the most part, the remaining primary reasons were close to what they were in the 1987 survey.

    While we have concentrated on women's most important reason for their abortions, most women in AGI's survey cited more than one factor in their decisions. Among women citing at least two reasons, the claim of inability to afford the child repeatedly showed up.

    High numbers of women also mentioned concerns for how the baby would change their lives (74%), in regards to education, employment, career (38%), or other family members (32%). Relationship issues--that a woman was unsure about her relationship, didn't or couldn't marry the father, etc.--totaled 48%. At least 38% mentioned that they had abortions, at least in part, because they had "completed my childbearing."
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    Default Re: Political News and Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If someone is pro-choice, then obviously I'm not doing anything to change anyone's minds or vice-versa. I just wish people would own the realities of the position. You lose a ton of credibility when you compare some dried up dead sperm to a fetus that increasingly develops into a fully functioning human by the day. When I read the sperm stuff, the impression I form in my head is that the person is being deliberately blind to the realities of the act so that they can find peace in their position. Sure, that's making an assumption on my part, but we all do that.
    Not at all. I'm just stating facts. Abortion is legal because a fetus at conception can't be proven to be human anymore than sperm.

    All I'm talking is facts. Not pro choice, life, or opinion. Just proven facts of life.

    Nobody can say when a human life begins, fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Not at all. I'm just stating facts. Abortion is legal because a fetus at conception can't be proven to be human anymore than sperm.

    All I'm talking is facts. Not pro choice, life, or opinion. Just proven facts of life.

    Nobody can say when a human life begins, fact.
    OK. Just for grins. What is the time, exact or not, that you think a human being becomes human?
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Not at all. I'm just stating facts. Abortion is legal because a fetus at conception can't be proven to be human anymore than sperm.

    All I'm talking is facts. Not pro choice, life, or opinion. Just proven facts of life.

    Nobody can say when a human life begins, fact.
    So why is one charged with double murder in 37 states if they kill a pregnant woman, and charged with double murder on the federal level if it's a federal offense?

    Both of us can point to laws, but text written by judges/representatives does nothing to change the fact that a fetus has distinguishable human features that get more prevalent by the day, and if nature works it's course without disturbances, it will grow into a fully functional unique human being. It's more than sperm. Facts. Indisputable. Can't be debated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    So why is one charged with double murder in 37 states if they kill a pregnant woman, and charged with double murder on the federal level if it's a federal offense?

    Both of us can point to laws, but text written by judges/representatives does nothing to change the fact that a fetus has distinguishable human features that get more prevalent by the day, and if nature works it's course without disturbances, it will grow into a fully functional unique human being. It's more than sperm. Facts. Indisputable. Can't be debated.
    Those laws are for a certain stage of pregnancy. You can't take a pregnancy test then get killed by a drunk driver then charge double homicide.

    Maybe that's the disconnect, of course at some point during pregnancy there is a human being formed, which is why there are limits on abortion.

    But you do not know when life begins, and there's certainly nothing proven that separates a fertilized egg making it a human.
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    OK. Just for grins. What is the time, exact or not, that you think a human being becomes human?
    My personal opinion? I would say brainwaves, or when pain is felt. But I don't know.

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    If you start blurring what it means to be a human being based on level of development, there is quite a slippery slope after feeling pain.

    1) Not a human if not viable outside the womb.
    2) Not a human if not outside the womb.
    3) Not a human if cannot compehend and interact in a meaningful way.
    4) Not a human if it cannot walk or talk.
    5) Not a human if disabled in any way.
    6) Not a human unless it meets a certain level of intelligence.
    7) Not a human unless it is has certain physical features (e.g. blond hair, blue eyes)

    Edit: the point is, if you say nobody knows when a human being is formed, I don't think you can argue with people who hold these beliefs.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 07-31-2017 at 08:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    If you start blurring what it means to be a human being based on level of development, there is quite a slippery slope after feeling pain.

    1) Not a human if not viable outside the womb.
    2) Not a human if not outside the womb.
    3) Not a human if cannot compehend and interact in a meaningful way.
    4) Not a human if it cannot walk or talk.
    5) Not a human if disabled in any way.
    6) Not a human unless it meets a certain level of intelligence.
    7) Not a human unless it is has certain physical features (e.g. blond hair, blue eyes)

    Edit: the point is, if you say nobody knows when a human being is formed, I don't think you can argue with people who hold these beliefs.
    I'm not saying any of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    I'm not saying any of this.
    But you did say nobody knows. Are you saying you know that those examples are not true? If so, how do you know that?
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    But you did say nobody knows. Are you saying you know that those examples are not true? If so, how do you know that?
    Walking or disability are not the qualities that define a human life. These are facts.

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    Apple gives into Red China's control of the internet, all for the might yuan. Money over privacy rights. The next time they preach justice, freedom and privacy, I will pull at a torch and flame them. It's a shame they don't respect the USA more than China.

    https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/a...171805038.html
    Source: Yahoo
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Walking or disability are not the qualities that define a human life. These are facts.
    Why do you say they are facts if you don't know what makes a human a human?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Kid. First, when a mother's life is in jeopardy you will find a lot of Christians very understanding of that. I wouldn't paint that brush so broad. Many understand the rape example as well.

    Also, you say: "hypocrisy is one of the terrible traits a person can possess"...yet all you are doing is admonishing others who *you say* judge. Your "hardcore Christian family" is probably tired of you judging them as well. I'm also sure they don't appreciate you describing them as having a "narrow sliver of existence". Your "larger world-view of things" must mean you know better, right? So, we went from hypocrisy to condescending?
    That, sir, is called a logical leap, and it has no bearing whatsoever on anything I just said. You have no idea about my interactions with my family. I didn't tell you. I will, though. It involves me getting around them, and within some amount of time, they get serious, and start talking politics and God --- without a single iota of a word about it out of me. And the typical interaction goes like this: they talk for large periods of time about how liberals suck, and Obama sucks, and guns are extremely important, and muslims suck.... and I sit there and listen to it. And I frequently never respond or say a damned thing. Occasionally, they will ask me what I think and if I agree with something, I agree... and if I don't, I will tell them. And if it doesn't match what they wanted to hear, I then get a lecture. Keep in mind, this has been going on for decades. I'm not a "kid", despite my moniker.

    It *is* small-minded logic. There's absolutely no other way to describe it. THey live in bum-fart southern Indiana, interacting with nothing but white Christians. They have no serious interactions with people of other cultures, and frequently look down upon them without having once interacted with them. It's terrible. And I don't agree with it. And for that, they think I'm "lost".

    So, no, I'm not being hypocritical. Idon't tell them how to live their lives. I sit through many lectures from them about how I need to think like them. I don't sit there and tell them my beliefs, or make them sit through lectures. It is not me being condescending to them, it is completely the other way around.

    And this is how it goes in many settings I go to. Even at work, I often have to listen to co-workers admonish their beliefs upon myself and others, and I frequently just sit there and smile politely. But, no, BnB, you are certainly right, the quiet, respectful guy who who accepts almost everyone and minds his own business at family functions is clearly grating on everyone with all of his open-mindedness, acceptance, and silence. For that, I apologize.

    Believe it or not, I speak much less freely IRL than I do online. It's the internet after all, anonymity, and all that.

    Well, anyway, I read about the US history you are mentioning decades ago. Maybe 40 years ago. I've also been uncomfortable when people try to link Christianity to the USA, so I agree with part of what you say. Still, I'm not demonizing people for it. It's really pretty small stuff compared to eternity...which is what Christians are talking about.

    BTW, rather than go into detail you are basically anti-Republican. That's fine. The Republican Party is no beacon of goodness. Also, you are truly a product of our culture. This is the viewpoint taught in public schools today. Spot on. You clearly do not believe in absolute truth either which is a strong sign of where you stand. That is not so fine if you claim to be a Christian because that is a foundational concept in the Christian Bible...which is a big reason Christians do not fit into the culture in 2017.
    Whoo-boy, here we go. First, there's a big difference between "anti-Republican", and "currently a Republican, but having his eyes opened and becoming less impressed with it". Catch my drift? The way the party has conducted itself over the last 4-5 years, and especially the last year, and especially-especially since Trump took office, is embarrassing and not representative of my own beliefs. If things don't turn around, I likely *will* find somewhere else to go. The party absolutely is a disaster right now. It was a disaster before Trump hi-jacked it and used it for his own purposes, and these last 6 months have been an on-going train-wreck an lesson in how *not* to run a country.

    I'm a product of my own situation, just as you are. I get from the way you're talking to me, that you think I'm young. I haven't been in public schools in decades. I learned most of what I know now by reading, investigating, on my own, through publications of my choice. But absolute truth? Wtf do you mean by that? Where do you learn absolute truth at --- Fox News? Limbaugh? Jokes of the party, whom I can't stand? I'm serious. I really want to know what "absolute truth" means, and why you have it and I do not. That is friggin' hilarious.

    Either way, since you admitted it, there is a massive reason Christians and religion in general are falling out of the culture in 2017 --- it's out-dated. It's archaic in thinking. It doesn't allow for any grey area at all, which is not how life really is. People can't identify with it. Religion proclaims these utopian existences but rarely practice it themselves. It's interpretive, and when someone doesn't interpret it the way you do, you label them as wrong.

    And that's a joke. Every single person on this planet is different, why would I expect you to be exactly like me? Are you perfect? No. Do I care if you are? No. Treat me with respect and dignity, and I will return the gesture, that's all I ask. And that's where religion falls short these days. That's not to say that there aren't some absolute saints out there in this world. I really enjoy Church's who are active in helping the community. I don't however, appreciate the preachy, come join us, God is All and if you don't believe that, then you are in the wrong and will suffer eternal damnation, now come give us money that a lot of churches have become.

    The reality is, people do not want to be convicted. People want to abort. They want to commit adultery. They worship money and power. People don't want to hear the absolute truth. They prefer moral relativism so they can go about their lives without interference. That is why we have this abortion debate.
    No, those things exist whether religion does or not. It's human nature. You can inject as much religion into as you want - it won't cure it. It never has, never will. You can accept that, or you can fight it. Either way, I don't go around "wanting to abort, wanting to commit adultery, worshipping money and power." You clearly don't know me. And I don't think you speak at all on behalf of most folks out there. That's my biggest problem with the Bible-thumpers --- they have "everyone figured out" and know what's best for them.

    Well, guess what. No, you don't have it all figured out, and no, you don't know what's best for them. You don't. The sooner you figure that out, the better off everyone will be. You be you, I'll be me; you respect that, and I'll respect you. The end. I don't want to hear your morality schpiel, because even though you act like you have it in spades, I'm willing to bet you're no worse or better of a person than I am. The difference is, I don't hold that against you, but you likely will against me.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 07-31-2017 at 10:05 PM.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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  27. #1074
    --------- freddielewis14's Avatar
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    Default Re: Political News and Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Why do you say they are facts if you don't know what makes a human a human?
    Because many things can walk...

    Wtf is going on here.

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    Default Re: Political News and Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Because many things can walk...

    Wtf is going on here.
    Recall that you said that nobody knows when life begins, right? If you cannot say when life begins, who are you to say what qualities do or do not define a human life?
    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

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