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Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

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  • #1

    Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

    Well I thought it would be lame to only write up one of these after a win so here is one after the loss. This game was not unexpected, it may not have gone down as we thought it might but losing in Toronto was not something that shocked anyone. That being said there were things to feel good about in this game and there were things to feel lousy about. The fact that we got down by 18 points in the first half was irritating and the fact that the bench for the most part allowed it to get away from them was no surprise to anyone either. However the ability to bring it down to 5 points at the half was great and honestly gave me lots of hope going into the second half. However we never could get a run going and ultimately once again the bench got way behind. This is going to just be an issue with our bench because as is always the case they are just not consistent at anything, but you could also argue that this is why they are the bench.

    However beyond the bench just being the bench the other big problem was a visit once again from our old friend, poor shooting. 20% from 3 and 41% overall. Some of it was certainly their defensive effort, they absolutely upped the defensive intensity and we did not respond well at all. However some of it was simply our inability to hit an open jump shot or several misses from less than 5 feet (Mahinimi).

    But the fact of the matter is I am thrilled to walk out of Toronto with a split, I honestly did not think we were going to take one up there but we did. So now we still have home court advantage for the short term and I would love for us to take care of business at home. The one thing I am taking away from both of these games is this. We are not nearly as far behind them as I thought we were before the series started. I believe both our coach and our superstar player have a playoff gear that the Raptors don't have. That doesn't mean they still can't take the series but I am confident now that this will not be easy for them if they do.

    That being said let's hit the grades again.

    Paul George: A++++++ He gets almost any consistent help in this game from anyone else and we are up 2-0. There is just nothing to say about him other than this and yes it is bold and outlandish but I'm saying it anyway. Other than LeBron James, Paul George is the best 2 way player in the playoffs. Yes that's right I think he is better in this playoff series than K. Leonard. There are a lot of people on the Spurs that can help shoulder the offensive load, there is nobody on the Pacers that can help Paul. If we lose the rest of the games I still think that this series is great because it shows that for once the Pacers have clearly the number one overall best player in a series and it isn't really even close.

    Monta Ellis: B He looked really good at times and this is one of those games where I think that we would have been better off with Monta Ellis playing "Monta ball". We struggle so much to score at times and in this time we need Monta to step up. With that in mind I would really like to see Monta play minutes with the bench. Ty Lawson has been a total dud in these first two games so I would not be opposed if Frank shortened the rotation so much that Monta was playing point with the reserves.

    Myles Turner: B This series is going to be very hard to watch because the Raptors are a very hard team to officiate. Valanciunas is just such a physical player that he could be called for a foul at the tip off, but the refs aren't going to foul him out every game so then you sit and wonder how this guy flails his elbows around and does not get a call but then Myles gets called for touch fouls. That being said Myles really helped bring the team back by being able to score, if we had another big that I thought could help I would advocate starting Myles again but we know that we don't. He really truly disrupts the Raptors on the inside and has been more than you would ever dream of from a rookie.

    Now its going to drop off significantly.

    George Hill: C- He played fairly decent defense against Lowery but not nearly good enough. We were once again treated to 5 shot George 3 of which were from 3 point range, none of which he made. I think its safe to say we need a lot more from him if we have any hope of winning again. He can not have 5 shot games. We can't have Paul completely burdened by having to score every time down the court.

    Solomon Hill: D+ As good as he was in that first game, he was about useless tonight. He somehow managed to lead our team in rebounding which actually says a lot more about our team than it does his ability to rebound. Much like his other Hill counter part he was also a 5 shot wonder but he only managed to hit 1 of his shots. Patrick Patterson pretty much abused him throughout the game.

    Rodney Stucky: D+ Now to be fair I might be overly harsh on Rodney but as sick as some are of LaVoy Allen I am sick of this guy and his inconsistent game. If he isn't running fast breaks and getting to the line I feel like he is pretty much useless. He is a middling defender at best and his shot just isn't what you would expect for someone who can score like he can. He did hit his one three point attempt so he should get credit for that. But overall I am just not happy with him.

    C.J. Miles: D+ One of life's great mysteries is how this guy managed to get a + in the +/- rating. 0-5 from three point land is just something that does not surprise me at all from him, nor will I be shocked if he goes 5-8 from three in one of the up coming games. He is just a chucker and you pretty much have to live with it. To his credit he does try on defense and he will get in there and try and help out on the boards. But overall he is what he is and he is the type of player that you will get high or low grades, very few in between.

    LaVoy Allen: F What would you say you do here? Played 21 min and managed to score 2 more points than I did. I used to be a LaVoy supporter and yes I know all of the small things he does. But at this level (playoffs) you have to step up. LaVoy has not only not stepped up he has stepped off. I would give serious consideration to playing Solomon Hill at the 4 to start the games but that is just me.

    Ty Lawson: F So disappointing. I had high hopes for him but this guy has just been hot garbage. Its not so much his offense, which since he is now a Pacer he is obligated to not be able to shoot the ball, but his defense as been embarrassing. If Frank want's to just cut him out and play Hill & Ellis at all times with just rotating in Stucky that would be fine by me at this point. I'd love for him to do better but I'm not holding my breath.

    Ian Mahinmi: F He better be injured. I will hope that his back is an issue. Because if it is not then he has been absolutely disgusting on the floor. 5 shots within 5 feet and 5 misses. Pathetic. How many times did he lose Valanciounas on defense tonight? 8-9 times?

    Frank Vogel: B I get accused of being an apologist for Frank and I won't deny it. But if somebody wants me to throw out a criticism I'll say this. I think he waited to long tonight to get the lineup changed back in the 4th quarter. By the time he made the move the game was pretty much toast. I get wanting to let your players play through issues but our bench is so inconsistent that if it were me they would have a very short leash. However that is why I'm not the coach and he is, he knows you have to show players you have confidence in them. Better him than me because I couldn't do it. Also while I understand trying to protect Myles, he essentially fouled Myles out with 5 fouls tonight. However still once again he designed plays that got us shots either at the rim or decent open mid range shots only to see the balls fall off of the rim. Unless Frank goes to score himself I don't see how this can be his fault. With that in mind I have absolute faith in frank to be ready for game 3.

    We got one, now we need to get two more and hold serve. If we do it will really put the pressure on them but whatever we do we cannot afford to get blown out on our own home court.



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

    PG, I agree. This is playoff PG, he is a entire different player. It's nice to know he can still step it up so much for the playoffs post leg snap.

    Monta is getting it hard by the fans. But Monta is playing pretty well. He is helping the team. I agree that some "Monta Ball" would help. I hope to see some 9f that in Indy. If not, I will take what he is giving us but others are going to have to chip in.


    Turner hit the rookie wall during the season. But he has peaked at the perfect time and we need to capitalize on it. He needs to start. Just from the way Ian is moving, he is hurt bad. He can barley get up the floor. Turner needs to start for Ian, or if we are going to start Ian (injury be damned) we need to start Turner as well.
    We had great success with Ian at the 5 and Turner at the 4. I would love to see this game 3, unless Ian is still moving like he was. If Ian still can't move, Start Turner at the 5.

    Starting Turner gets JHILL back in the rotation and frankly I think we need him. He is one of our best rebounders, and he can score. Sounds like something we could use.
    Turner moving to the starting line up has a ripple effect, and that ripple is positive.

    The bench is just playing "bad ball". It is sad. They look lost and have no clue what to do. But JHILL needs to replace Turner as he goes to the starters, and that could help the bench.
    Stuckey has to give us more. CJ has to find other ways to help our team when his shot is not falling. We know he can, and he needs to do so.

    We need to shake it up. PG needs help, and Turner can give him that help. With Turner in our starting line up, we will have a scoring pecking order as such:

    PG13
    Turner
    Monta
    GHILL
    Solo/Lavoy/Ian (how ever the bigs work out)

    That gives PG the help he needs. If Monta is the 3rd option with the starters, we are in better shape. I fully expect Vogel to make some sort of move. We are going to win game 3 with our roster and coaching.


    "Pacers will win 50 games this season" 07-16-2015
    "Ian will average 10-10 this season" 10-21-15

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    • #3
      Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

      I don't agree with more JHill. Valanciunas would put on a dunking contest with him out there. I think we need Ian to get healthy.

      More important, we need our best players on the floor for more minutes. We should NOT have CJ Miles out there at all. Paul, George and Monta should be logging at minimum 35 minutes apiece.

      Maybe even more important, Frank has to interrupt the Raptors momentum. He did not manage the game well and kept our starters out too long.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

        I agree that Frank took way way way too long to go back to PG and Monta and lost the game early in the 4th.

        I also do not understand why the group that had the best impact in the last game did not really play together. We need to see Monta, G Hill. PG, S. Hill and Turner on the court together, that seems to be the most effective lineup. I could switch George Hill for Stucky or CJ Miles just because they at least seem engaged at this point.

        I would love to see the five man plus minus for them in the last game and this game.

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        • #5
          Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

          I think Ian is definitely slowed by his back. He was moving noticeably slowly and gingerly throughout (at least) the second half. Some of his shots looked short armed, and I'm thinking he can't really even get full extension on the little flips and jump hooks he seemed to have perfected this year. We need regular season Mahinmi big time. Hope he can recoup quickly since our depth at 4/5 is so thin. Lingering effects of the injury signal big problems for us.

          Everyone has to improve the pick n roll / pick n pop defense. Not easily done when we're talking Stuckey, Monta, Lawson - none of which are plus defenders - and our group of bigs (especially if Mahinmi isn't full speed).

          GHill has obviously got to be more involved offensively.

          Solo missing 3s and layups. Was the 3 point hot streak to end the year just just an outlier? If he can't sustain a decent threat level from downtown it significantly downgrades our bench offense. But I do appreciate his energy.

          Pretty much agree with these grades. Bench looks like an issue going forward. Agree also with sentiment we have to adapt rotation to keep some of our perimeter starters on court with bench.
          I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

          -Emiliano Zapata

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          • #6
            Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

            I missed the regular season. I've seen two playoff games. From what I've seen so far, I would be fine with never seeing Ty Lawson play another minute.
            "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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            • #7
              Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

              Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
              I missed the regular season. I've seen two playoff games. From what I've seen so far, I would be fine with never seeing Ty Lawson play another minute.
              I thought he was underwhelming in his regular season stint as well. Had very few good games. Can pass, but is not a threat to score and is arguably the worst defender on the team, at least amongst perimeter players. Might be better if he was in better shape and hadn't essentially missed the majority of this year (rust). But you have to wonder with his baggage...

              Plus, I don't know that he thrives in our style of play anyway. If we were truly a running team, it would be one thing. But most of the time, when one of our guys pushes the ball in transition, nobody runs with them. Game one was somewhat different in that regard, and more transition buckets could only help.
              Last edited by D-BONE; 04-19-2016, 07:49 AM.
              I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

              -Emiliano Zapata

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              • #8
                Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

                Ian is probably hurt. Do not sign him for next year unless it is cheap and as a back up.
                Biyombo would be better than any rebounder that the Pacers currently have.
                Pacers still need a point guard. Lawson is not it. The idea is right but Lawson is not what they need.
                As far as this series. Start Lavoy at center and have him never leave V.
                Maybe put Robinson out there for a few minutes with the second unit.
                {o,o}
                |)__)
                -"-"-

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                • #9
                  Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

                  I thought we had a shot in the second half. I thought that we might keep JonasV off of the boards a little better. I thought that Monta, Stuckey, CJ, or GHill could help out PG.

                  This game showed us the same issues that have plagued this team.

                  Lack of consistent outside shooting.
                  Lack of toughness inside.
                  Careless ball control for a perimeter focused team.
                  No point guard defenders on the bench.


                  We lost because we had no answer for Corey Joseph and JonasV. They scored 46 of their 98 points in the paint.

                  But the killer is...we only hit 4 threes. If you are a perimeter based team and you can't hit threes...you will lose every time.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

                    Agree with your summary, except if drop GHill to aD+ as well. He's supposed to be a veteran team leader and starter, not an offensive liability. At this point I'd trade all our guards and be happy. Don't know what to do about Val. We need a strong big man for situations like this, but I think they're with the Ants.
                    Danger Zone

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                    • #11
                      Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

                      IDK if Jordan Hill is the answer, and what I'm about to mention was in garbage time, but JHill seemed to use his body a lot better on JV. Hill won't be able to help off of JV near as good as Turner and Ian, but he may be able to keep him bottled up slightly better. Not sure if that's a good trade off, but may be worth a try.

                      Monta, PG and Turner gave us about what we need. One more guy has to step up. I'm looking at GHill and CJ. Solo needs to keep driving, not shooting 3s. He will get fouled. He is either matched up with someone too slow or too small overtime he's on the court.

                      PLEASE STOP WITH THE ALL BENCH LINEUP FRANK! It's killing us. One of Monta, GHill or PG has to be on the court at all times. I get PG was in foul trouble, so that guy last night should have been Monta. It's so obvious, STOP WITH THE ALL BENCH LINEUP.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

                        I thought the Raptors improved more from game 1 to game 2 than the Pacers dropped off from game 1 to game 2. Raptors defense was much, much better in game two, their aggression, their rebounding - everything was better.

                        Keep one thing in mind the bench almost always plays better at home as we will see in the next two games - that is just the way the playoffs are.

                        I see this series having several more twist and turns. But our big guys must play better.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

                          As I predicted, TOR would win Game 2 and their fans would think the series is over. Never seen a fanbase get more low and more high after a win/loss. I thought PD was bad. Next 2 games are here and you'll see more than 3 players know where they're at.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

                            We were one more offensive producer away from being up 2-0. The Raptors played extremely hard and well, and we still had a chance to steal it. We could just never get over that 5-6 point hump.

                            In a game where GH didn't even look at the basket, I found myself wanting Monta to look to drive to the rim more often. Monta's poor decision making/selfishness surely makes me mad (a lot) more often than not, but it was nice to see him at least attempt some shots. Had Hill done the same, I think we could have won this game in the 3rd qtr. Bottom line - if he isn't shooting, then he isn't helping offensively. And that's not okay.

                            Ty Lawson's defense is some of the worst defense I've seen at the guard position. He can't keep anyone in front of him and then he tends to foul guys once they get to the basket. His matchup with Cory Joseph has been absolutely one sided and has taken away from the one sided advantage that we've had between Paul and Derozan. You can't let a guy like Cory Joseph beat you so badly and expect to pull off an upset.

                            Valanciunas is also hurting us. Ian was a bit step slow in his rotations which helped JV finish at the rim much better last night than in game 1. We've got to put a body on him, but at this point the refs are letting the guys play and JV is just physically stronger than our guys. At this point we should have Ian box him out and have others come in and grab the boards. Just don't let him get his hands on it.

                            Ross and Patterson got hot from 3 a bit. But I'd assume some of that is home cooking. Hopefully we can get the same type of bounces at BLF. But we've GOT to stop with the all bench lineup. The lineup that had Lowry playing with the Raptors bench pretty much sealed the game for them. We should be doing something similar.

                            All in all, we got a split and are going home for 2 games. We've given ourselves a shot here. Nobody can be mad about that. Game 3 is going to go a LONG way in deciding this series.
                            Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 04-19-2016, 09:16 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Odd thoughts: game 2 playoffs Pacers vs Raptors

                              Scoring droughts. I still think the Pacers are really missing the boat by not adding the "Luvena Drought of the Game" to the list of sponsored summaries/highlights.

                              I was not quite as copacetic with Monta as I thought some of his early shot attempts broke up the offensive rhythm and contributed greatly to the first half problems. He turned it up in the second half but I still was yelling "Monta, NO!" at the TV when he took a long jumper ... even though he was finally making them.

                              Ian seems very hurt. As some of us have seen before, that lower back can make a huge difference for a big man - can you say Jeff Foster? That's where a lot of spring comes from when going up for shots at the rim as well as blocks and rebounds, and with it stabbing every time you put any pressure on it then the player will look like a telephone pole trying to do a high jump.
                              BillS

                              A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                              Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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