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Thread: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    By the way, I've never said that Roy cannot set screens to save his life. After all, we used to have a screen-based offense that worked really well back when in 12-13. Yeah, things were different after that but it did happen.
    Honestly....I didn't know what a real screen looked like until Lavoy stepped onto the floor to set one for GH/PG13.
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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    It honestly shouldn't matter when you're scoring at such a high level.

    And my point wasn't to say it was or was not "ball-hogging." It was that "ball hogging" seems to conveniently only come up regarding Kobe. Jordan was just as much of a "ball hog" if not more. That's what big time scorers with that mentality do, they shoot the ball. As long as you're putting up the points around an efficient level, then there's not much to complain about.
    44% isn't efficient at all. His TS% of 54% (if averaged for a season) would rank in the 200s in the NBA.

    And again, that's why it's a perfect microcosm of his career. Put up a lot of points, on a lot of shots, with very little efficiency.
    Last edited by Since86; 04-14-2016 at 04:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    The NBA is a league that has always thrived on star power, and Kobe's night was a microcosm of it.

    Game was completely meaningless (would've had some meaning had the game hinged on Utah making the playoffs), so it was basically 100% all about Kobe. And this his credit, he delivered. Good for those fans who shelled out the ridiculous money to see that game. I figured he'd put up a 5-16 FG performance and spend a lot of time sitting on the bench soaking things in, but he played and delivered a pretty epic performance. Good on him for that.

    Last night's game probably (right or wrong) generated more buzz than the Mavericks winning the championship in 2011, but that's how things go. It's a star driven league and the majority of "casual" have no problem buying into that, so that's what the NBA is going to sell.
    Last edited by d_c; 04-14-2016 at 01:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Honestly....I didn't know what a real screen looked like until Lavoy stepped onto the floor to set one for GH/PG13.
    Nah, our 12-13 offense relied a lot on off-ball screens. This is how we were able to get open looks for Roy and David against the Heat in the '13 ECF. Coach Nick had posted a very interesting video about our offense at the time.
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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I didn't see this live, just saw the highlights. Really didn't like the guy, but that's an incredible way to go out.



    One thing I can't help but notice is the screens that Kobe was getting tonight. Roy Hibbert set some bone-crushing picks.

    He set even more completely illegal moving picks.
    My favorite moment is the 2:57 mark when the Jazz player on the bench signals that Kobe traveled. Who is that guy? Like... really? Kobe travelled? In his retirement game?

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    **** TS%

    The guy just singel handedly turned around the game and finished his last game 5 of 5 from the field and 4 of 4 from the free throw line with all the focus on him tonight. The guy has the Lambert Glacier in his veins.

    Ron Artest's tribute to Kobe had me lol

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by MvPlumlee View Post
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    **** TS%

    The guy just singel handedly turned around the game and finished his last game 5 of 5 from the field and 4 of 4 from the free throw line with all the focus on him tonight. The guy has the Lambert Glacier in his veins.

    Ron Artest's tribute to Kobe had me lol
    I missed this. What did he do? Got a link?

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by Lurkster View Post
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    I missed this. What did he do? Got a link?
    It was on NBA league pass.
    But it came down to all these other players and teammates with a serious face complimenting Kobe for his career and Ron was like "nobody in the NBA has made an impact on this earth and outside of this universe like you have, Kobe"

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by MvPlumlee View Post
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    It was on NBA league pass.
    But it came down to all these other players and teammates with a serious face complimenting Kobe for his career and Ron was like "nobody in the NBA has made an impact on this earth and outside of this universe like you have, Kobe"
    I can totally imagine Ron saying that
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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Also, this...

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../fga_game.html

    He just had to out-do Jordan...like he was thinking before the game "there must be some record I could claim over Micha-.....OOOOHHH!"
    Last edited by Ratking; 04-14-2016 at 04:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    It honestly shouldn't matter when you're scoring at such a high level.

    And my point wasn't to say it was or was not "ball-hogging." It was that "ball hogging" seems to conveniently only come up regarding Kobe. Jordan was just as much of a "ball hog" if not more.
    The numbers pretty clearly indicate Kobe is the greatest ball hog ever. Jordan just wanted to win, and scoring points was often the best way to do that. If you look at the majority of his mega scoring games, the efficiency was waaaaay better than 44%.

    Kobe is in love with his own point totals. Jordan was in love with winning. That's a very important distinction. You would never see Kobe averaging 11 assists in an NBA finals series.

    FWIW, here are Jordan's biggest scoring games with the wizards, from the ages of 38-40:

    age 38:

    11/16/01: 44 points on 52%

    age 39:

    12/25/01: 51 points on 55%
    12/31/01: 45 points on 50%
    01/24/02: 40 points on 62%
    01/26/02: 41 points on 57%
    02/23/02: 37 points on 52%
    01/04/03: 42 points on 54%
    02/01/03: 45 points on 55%

    age 40:

    02/21/03: 43 points on 60%
    02/27/03: 35 points on 58%
    03/09/03: 39 points on 59%

    Compare that with last night. Even Jordan on a horrible wizards team several years older than Kobe never jacked up shots just for the sake of padding his point total.

    I totally understand why Kobe did what he did last night and I don't think there's anything terrible about it per se, but Jordan would never have gone out like that.

    Kobe had the luxury of being a really talented scorer with no conscience that had the ultimate green light for 20 solid years. Along the way he won some titles and he was the main reason why for two of them, so it isn;t like he wasn't an all-time great player, but his game was always compromised by his ego.
    Last edited by Kstat; 04-14-2016 at 05:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The numbers pretty clearly indicate Kobe is the greatest ball hog ever. Jordan just wanted to win, and scoring points was often the best way to do that. If you look at the majority of his mega scoring games, the efficiency was waaaaay better than 44%.

    Kobe is in love with his own point totals. Jordan was in love with winning. That's a very important distinction. You would never see Kobe averaging 11 assists in an NBA finals series.

    FWIW, here are Jordan's biggest scoring games with the wizards, from the ages of 38-40:

    age 38:

    11/16/01: 44 points on 52%

    age 39:

    12/25/01: 51 points on 55%
    12/31/01: 45 points on 50%
    01/24/02: 40 points on 62%
    01/26/02: 41 points on 57%
    02/23/02: 37 points on 52%
    01/04/03: 42 points on 54%
    02/01/03: 45 points on 55%

    age 40:

    02/21/03: 43 points on 60%
    02/27/03: 35 points on 58%
    03/09/03: 39 points on 59%

    Compare that with last night. Even Jordan on a horrible wizards team several years older than Kobe never jacked up shots just for the sake of padding his point total.
    Jordan wasn't coming off of so many serious injuries in his previous seasons the same way Kobe was, so yes he was much much more effective when he was younger.

    The rest of that is your own personal bias. Unless you somehow have an advanced analytic that says Jordan only shot a lot because he wanted to win, whereas Kobe shot a lot because he wants to pad his stats - you're simply sharing an assumption that's based on whom you like and don't like as a player. Do not try and pass it as a fact like a statistic, because it isn't one.

    Did Jordan want to win? Hell yes. But so did Kobe. Probably just as bad.

    That doesn't change the fact that they both shot a lot. They wanted to win on their terms, and being the alpha dog offensively was the way they both did it. Jordan did it better, but they still did it in similar fashion.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    I hate that dude, no surprise there. But ya know, it was his last game and I have LOTS of friends who are lifelong non-bandwagon Kobe/Laker fans.

    I remember very well the emotions I had for weeks after Reggie was done, and I totally empathize with people going through that, no matter how much I despite the player in question.

    That performance was epic. I am genuinely happy for my friends and LA for getting to have at least that. I can't, as much as I want to, deny how awesome of a performance that was in basketball lore.

    The 50 shots thing, while hilarious, isn't going to be what people will remember. Although the Kobe hater in me will always internally smirk when this game is mentioned.

    The guy was a heck of a player. He earned the right to chuck up 70 shots if he felt like it. I was ACTUALLY rooting for Kobe and a Lakers win in the final few minutes. That's the first and last time you will ever hear me say that. Unless the Lakers beating someone improves the Pacers standings or something.

    Anyways, all that to say: I recognize that last night was a special moment, despite my personal feelings. And it was a pleasure to see live.

    Respect. And good riddance.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Kobe shot a lot more than Jordan. And missed a loooooooot more.

    Jordan took way higher percentage shots. Anyone that watched both guys play would say that. Kobe was great but his ego was too much for his own good at times.

    He pissed away an NBA finals series because he was too prideful to admit that he couldn't beat 2-3 elite defenders off the dribble and pass it to the single-covered behemoth on his squad. Again, Jordan when faced with the same dilemma in the 1991 finals averaged 11 assists and no one ever tried it again.

    The simple fact is at no point in Jordan's career did he ever have a night like last night where he said "win or lose, I'm going to see how many points I can score for the hell of it." Kobe loved winning but he loved scoring points more. Jordan was the opposite.
    Last edited by Kstat; 04-14-2016 at 06:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Kobe also played a lot more than Jordan (20 seasons to 14). On average Jordan shot more shots per game than Kobe, including more FGA/GM during their last season.

    Kobe took a lot of bad shots which is why he shot 45% and Jordan shot 59. I'm not disputing that at all. But I am disputing that it's strictly due to ego. For better or worse, Kobe thought him shooting/scoring was the best way to win the game. Same way Jordan did. He just so happened to worse shot selection. He was basically a less efficient version of Jordan. They average similar assist and assist% numbers throughout their careers. Jordan was a better rebounder by 1 per game, so on and so forth.

    Did he cost them the Detroit series? Yes he did. But that doesn't mean he didn't eventually reinvent his game to a degree that allowed him to win two more rings. Kobe wanted the acknowledgment of being the alpha on his team. You constantly criticize and knock him for being 1A during his first three championships, so you can't really blame him for wanting to be that alpha player that is the clear cut guy on a championship team.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Being the alpha dog doesn't mean scoring points, it means producing points. If the best way for your team to do that is with you scoring then great but it also means getting points for teammates when the defense is overplaying you.

    Part of the reason Shaq was always #1 over Kobe is that he was never afraid to give the ball up out of the post and trust his teammates. Dumping the ball inside to him was always a better option for the team than Kobe, who was usually only looking for his own shot.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    44% isn't efficient at all. His TS% of 54% (if averaged for a season) would rank in the 200s in the NBA.

    And again, that's why it's a perfect microcosm of his career. Put up a lot of points, on a lot of shots, with very little efficiency.
    And he won 5 titles and is one of the greatest to ever play the game.


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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Did Jordan want to win? Hell yes. But so did Kobe. Probably just as bad.
    I'm not sure if you followed Jordan's entire career like I did, but IMO Jordan had mental issues he wanted to win so bad. Kobe was more typical A type that pushed himself and other people. But he wasn't obsessed with winning like Jordan.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Kobe loved winning but he loved scoring points more. Jordan was the opposite.
    /close thread. Nothing more to be said.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I'm not sure if you followed Jordan's entire career like I did, but IMO Jordan had mental issues he wanted to win so bad. Kobe was more typical A type that pushed himself and other people. But he wasn't obsessed with winning like Jordan.
    I'm not sure anyone in the history of competitive sports have been as obsessed with winning as Jordan. But let's not take anything away from Kobe's competitiveness: He was maniacal too.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Phil Jackson weighed in on this thing...and he has a bit more experience than anyone here with Kobe and MJ:

    On offense, Jackson said: "Jordan was also more naturally inclined to let the game come to him and not overplay his hand, whereas Kobe tends to force the action, especially when the game isn't going his way. When his shot is off, Kobe will pound away relentlessly until his luck turns. Michael, on the other hand, would shift his attention to defense or passing or setting screens to help the team win the game."



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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Why has this turned into Kobe vs. Jordan? Everyone knows Jordan was better; nobody is arguing that.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Why has this turned into Kobe vs. Jordan? Everyone knows Jordan was better; nobody is arguing that.
    I agree it's not about who was better. I don't think most here are making that type of comparison. Still, Kobe has been compared to Jordan since the day he stepped onto an NBA court. Not so much that he was as good or even approached MJ's greatness. But that he's about the best imitation and here we see him falling short once again jacking up shots.

    Kobe won, but Jordan was a winner.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I agree it's not about who was better. I don't think most here are making that type of comparison. Still, Kobe has been compared to Jordan since the day he stepped onto an NBA court. Not so much that he was as good or even approached MJ's greatness. But that he's about the best imitation and here we see him falling short once again jacking up shots.

    Kobe won, but Jordan was a winner.
    I find it really difficult to argue that Kobe wasn't a winner. He won five freaking titles. Again though, we can't resist the urge to compare him to Jordan.

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    Default Re: Kobe's Final Game: 60 points

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I find it really difficult to argue that Kobe wasn't a winner. He won five freaking titles. Again though, we can't resist the urge to compare him to Jordan.
    Kobe is totally a winner. I mean, I've heard time and time again over his career about how Shane Battier or even Mike Dunleavy are winning players, so it's no stretch to say Kobe is a winner as well. He's not as good as Jordan was, but it's proven that you can build title winning franchises around him.

    Clearly the 2nd best SG behind Jordan.

    He gets the additional press and adoration because 1) he played for a marquee franchise in a huge market and 2) he played there for 20 years. And the guy is sort of a rebel/loner who clearly never GAF about what people thought of him (except that one time when Philly fans booed him at the all-star game). Sort of a polarizing figure to so many, therefore people always had an opinion about him.

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