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Thread: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

  1. #51
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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Here's my take.... If this keeps up there's only two possible answers.... The leagues will make it mandatory for players and personnel to stand. Or the leagues will drop the Natl Anthem from their pregame ceremonies.

    Whatever the easier route proves to be.

    Yes, there would be a PR hit from dropping the Natl Anthem. But there's already a PR hit with it being used and abused the way it currently is. And that is a long term problem. First it's growing and spreading for this current issue among leagues and players. And now that the door has been unlocked, there will be other issues down the road that will elicit this same protest. And probably of less importance too now that not standing or kneeling has become the new normal. At some point we won't even know what they are protesting exactly because it could the current issue, a new national issue, or even a local or personal issue.
    Meanwhile, doing away with the Anthem entirely is a short term problem. It'll hit hard and fast but then fade until not playing the Anthem before games becomes the new normal.

    Because businesses don't need their employees protesting on company time, and especially not when it harms the company. And if it continues, they WILL put a stop to it one way or the other....
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  2. #52

    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Wow. Once again we see that the team playing, donating huge amounts of time and money to foundations to support women and children in Indianapolis and around the country, being solid citizens and not getting into trouble get zero attention for those things, but make one protest and suddenly they are not only getting more attention but it is from people who didn't know they existed before.

    I think if you went out and asked the majority of veterans, they will tell you they don't fight for the flag. If it was a choice between defending a person and letting the flag fall to the ground, the flag would be on the ground.

    The right to protest is fundamental to the freedom we claim to fight for. So is the right to disagree with the protest.

    In this case, though, rather than discussing what is being protested, everything is based on veneration of the national anthem as a holy ritual that in and of itself is more important than the rights the country claims to stand for. In other words, being incensed because respectfully protesting (and I can't see why kneeling is less respectful than the fans in the crowd who talk on their phones and pay no attention) is deflecting the issue to be about an authoritative symbol that should be controlling our actions. For lack of a better term (because this is essentially the very definition of the term), that's fascism.

    I, for one, am proud of the members of the Fever for having the guts to risk the exact same sort of reaction that we've seen. I expect that very soon we will see someone get beaten over this - beaten because they didn't properly venerate a piece of cloth that supposedly stands for their right to voice their objections.
    Quoted just so this can be repeated again.

    Sorry some people's feelings were hurt that people kneeled during the National Anthem. Personally, I think systemic oppression is a darn good reason to protest.

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Personally, I think systemic oppression is a darn good reason to protest.
    The simple fact that we've had 7 1/2yrs of Obama/Holder/Lynch without them rooting out this systematic racism should be some evidence that the problem is a tad bit different than the one you think it is. Are there racist cops? Sure. Is there some nation wide unspoken policy of shooting black men? No. It's always interesting to read community activists take police training about shooting situations and read how they come away with different ideals of what actually goes on with being an officer. We should always work towards making our policing better, but when activists start labeling cops in general as racist, or even white people in general as racist, because of shootings you tend to turn potential supporters into dissenters.

    There's much better ways to bring awareness to the situation than being disrespectful to something that stands for the country as a whole. Hashtags and kneelings make for good newpaper headlines, but that's about all they're good for.
    Last edited by Since86; 09-22-2016 at 04:14 PM.
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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    It's a different world than it was 20 years ago. "Republicans buy shoes too" is no longer a free pass.
    True, 20 years ago you didn't have politicians aided with 21st century social media convincing citizens into thinking that there is always some boogeyman police officer lurking in the shadows who is ready to kill them at first glance. 20 years ago you weren't having mass cop killings in Dallas, mayhem in Charlotte, etc. Who has been the dominant controlling political ideology over the last 8 years? Democrats. Certainly not Republicans. A Democrat promised to make race relations better 8 years ago and instead they're far worse. Maybe the blame should be placed on those who've had the most power recently?

    Just my humble opinion of course.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-22-2016 at 04:23 PM.

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Seems like to me a conversation is being had that wasn't before. Maybe race relations were always this bad and it's taken a black president to bring it out into the open.

    Also, not sure a political thread should like stay open like this.
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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    My problem with the kneeling during the national anthem has nothing to do with them choosing to do it because they have every right to and I think their thoughts are in a good place. I just would rather see them kneel for measurable goals.

    How do we know when systemic oppression is over? Is it 100% in the US... Around the world? Is it when progress starts to get made... And if so what progress?

    The right to vote for instance has a very real moment it is achieved. I know the issues are more complex than that but kneeling indefinitely loses its power for change IMO

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  12. #57
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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    So many people are more outraged by kneeling than death. And the "Obama didn't fix it" argument. What absurd points.

    But the best is people critiquing how people protest. "I mean, they don't have to protest on my bus and hold up traffic" "They don't have to sit in while people are trying to eat."

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by funnyguy1105 View Post
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    My problem with the kneeling during the national anthem has nothing to do with them choosing to do it because they have every right to and I think their thoughts are in a good place. I just would rather see them kneel for measurable goals.

    How do we know when systemic oppression is over? Is it 100% in the US... Around the world? Is it when progress starts to get made... And if so what progress?

    The right to vote for instance has a very real moment it is achieved. I know the issues are more complex than that but kneeling indefinitely loses its power for change IMO
    The goal is for murderers to be punished. Unless you don't see that as progress, what's your confusion?

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    I think that the most irritating part of this ties into what you are talking about. The pledge of Allegiance or standing during the national anthem shouldn't be mandatory. Part of the reason for the anthem (or prayer before/after an event) is bring (mostly) everyone together and remind us that the game is just a game.

    It's irritating because an individual or a group is taking focus away from that. The "cause" is not the concern, but rather "my cause" is more important than anything else including something that people take very seriously. There are better ways to bring awareness or promote discussion other than being passive aggressive or provocative...
    Do you not know any of the history or origin of the anthem?

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness View Post
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    Seems like to me a conversation is being had that wasn't before. Maybe race relations were always this bad and it's taken a black president to bring it out into the open.

    Also, not sure a political thread should like stay open like this.
    This.

    We also didn't have cameras 20 years ago on almost every police shooting. Watching unarmed men get gunned down is a sure way to incite a severe public reaction. And the problem isn't the cameras.

    For the record, I don't think protesting the anthem is productive. However there's an obvious problem and it isn't being addressed.
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-22-2016 at 07:24 PM.

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Do you not know any of the history or origin of the anthem?
    I am not sure what your point is, enlighten me.
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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    I am not sure what your point is, enlighten me.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...770075?0p19G=c

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    This.

    We also didn't have cameras 20 years ago on almost every police shooting. Watching unarmed men get gunned down is a sure way to incite a severe public reaction. And the problem isn't the cameras.

    For the record, I don't think protesting the anthem is productive. However there's an obvious problem and it isn't being addressed.

    Luckily for us, the premier academic institution in this country decided to look at the facts instead of the emotion (unless I missed where Harvard became a right wing news outlet run by Rush Limbaugh and Fox News). The Washington Post (again, hardly a right-wing outlet) also attempted to actually look at some facts which dispel the myths put out there by the left. The facts show that there are no racial discrepancies in officer-involved shootings.


    Last week, the Washington Post published a study of the police shootings that took place in 2015. Likely they intended the story to be shocking — as on Dec. 24, 965 people were killed by police! Instead, the report quells the notion that trigger-happy cops are out hunting for civilian victims, especially African-Americans. Among its key findings:
    •White cops shooting unarmed black men accounted for less than 4 percent of fatal police shootings.
    •In three-quarters of the incidents, cops were either under attack themselves or defending civilians. In other words, doing their jobs.
    •The majority of those killed were brandishing weapons, suicidal or mentally troubled or bolted when ordered to surrender.
    •Nearly a third of police shootings resulted from car chases that began with a minor traffic stop.

    The moral of this story is: Don’t point a gun at the cops and don’t run when they tell you stop, and you’re likely to survive. Since the population of the US is about 318 million people, a thousand deaths at the hands of police works out to 1 in 318,000. You have a better chance of being killed in a violent storm (1 in 68,000) or slipping in the tub (1 in 11,500) than being shot by a cop, no matter what color you are.

    But even these figures are deceptive. On those 965 killed, only 90 were unarmed, and the majority of those were white. (And that doesn’t take into account other extenuating circumstances besides a weapon that would have caused a police officer to fire.)



    http://nypost.com/2016/01/02/myth-of...ling-epidemic/

    (Washington Post study is within above link)

    Harvard study from Summer 2016 which finds no racial discrepancies in shootings:

    http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf

    The facts paint a far difference picture than the false political narrative advanced by the left. Racial divides are good for the left's political business. The left wants to convince minorities that there are evil racist cops lurking in the shadows ready to execute them at any minute. Hashtags and scary rhetoric are far more eye opening than reading through some dry Harvard study. The left wants to create hysteria to gin up their political base and turn out voters on election day all under the guise that there are evil racist cops everywhere and only Democrats can fix the problem. It doesn't matter that the facts say it's false. The charge and accusation is so shocking to the conscious that it spreads like wildfire and creates mayhem. The rhetoric can also have dangerous consequences. See Dallas, Texas.

    That's not to say there aren't bad cops or some stories where police officers acted wrong and deserve to be punished. Of course there are in a country of 300 million people. The Harvard study does say that minorities are more likely to experience force than whites. That certainly needs to be addressed. However, when it comes to the most deadly force, officer-involved shootings, the study finds no racial discrepancies in the data. Thus, the problem is nowhere near as scary and horrible as the left makes it out to be.

    Leave it to the left in this country to *******ize the national anthem. Only they could succeed in turning a once-unifying anthem into a polarizing political football. Typical. For decades, people from all walk's of life stood during this song because it stood for the idea that we all belonged to a country that, while not perfect, has advanced freedom and made continuous improvements over the years. But now it is forever tainted at athletic events. I grudgingly give the left credit for this - they always find a way succeed in doing the unthinkable.

    Fifteen years ago 3,000 people were slaughtered by terrorists who hate the freedom the US stands for. People of all races and socio-economic backgrounds were killed because they were in buildings viewed by terrorists as representing freedom. The attacks united the nation, but fifteen years later you had smug athletes desecrating the anthem as the country remembered those attacks. That obviously is going to rub a ton of people the wrong way. Sure, it takes guts to protest the anthem, I'll give them that. Most stupid actions do take guts.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-23-2016 at 10:54 AM.

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    And the "Obama didn't fix it" argument. What absurd points.
    If systematic racism was so rampant, wouldn't Obama/Holder/Lynch address it at some point during the past 7 1/2 yrs? So either they don't have a problem with systematic racism oppression their fellow AAs, or there's a different underlying issue. The DOJ has investigated every single one of the shootings that have gotten national attention, and they have not found a single case where action was taken.

    The only case that has went to trial so far has been the Freddie Gray case, and that was an utter embarrassment for the city of Baltimore.

    I can get behind protests of police abuse. But when those protests turn into racial theater, count me out. I have a problem with labeling complete strangers who I don't know a thing about as racist bigots, simply because they were involved in a shooting. Gonna need to know a little bit more about what happened other than a black man being shot. Especially when it turns out said black man was shot by another black man, in regards to Charlotte.
    Last edited by Since86; 09-23-2016 at 11:13 AM.
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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    So many people are more outraged by kneeling than death. And the "Obama didn't fix it" argument. What absurd points.

    But the best is people critiquing how people protest. "I mean, they don't have to protest on my bus and hold up traffic" "They don't have to sit in while people are trying to eat."
    My argument is more of a "Obama fanned the flames to help the business of Democrat politics" type of thing.

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If systematic racism was so rampant, wouldn't Obama/Holder/Lynch address it at some point during the past 7 1/2 yrs? So either they don't have a problem with systematic racism oppression their fellow AAs, or there's a different underlying issue. The DOJ has investigated every single one of the shootings that have gotten national attention, and they have not found a single case where action was taken.

    The only case that has went to trial so far has been the Freddie Gray case, and that was an utter embarrassment for the city of Baltimore.

    I can get behind protests of police abuse. But when those protests turn into racial theater, count me out. I have a problem with labeling complete strangers who I don't know a thing about as racist bigots, simply because they were involved in a shooting. Gonna need to know a little bit more about what happened other than a black man being shot. Especially when it turns out said black man was shot by another black man, in regards to Charlotte.
    It's harder for black people in power to address racism towards black people. I'm surprised this isn't an easily understood situation.

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    My argument is more of a "Obama fanned the flames to help the business of Democrat politics" type of thing.
    This is just flat out off base.

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    It's harder for black people in power to address racism towards black people. I'm surprised this isn't an easily understood situation.
    So it's hard for the President of the United States and the Attorney General of the United States to uphold the law of the United States, because they're black? Okay. It's not even like they have to write new laws or anything. All the Atty General has to do is make the decision to prosecute a police officer(s) under Federal laws already on the books. I don't know why their skin color prohibits them of doing their job, when there isn't anyone other than Obama above them that could stop them from doing their job.
    Last edited by Since86; 09-23-2016 at 02:12 PM.
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  32. #69
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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Ha, these arguments are gold.

    EDIT: dang, why delete sollozo? Hilarious.

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    I know the police have said they aren't going to release the video of Mr. Scott being shot just yet, but you do know there are still pictures showing a gun laying next to his body right? And before we start getting into whether or not it was planted by officers, just know that Mr. Scott's wife also released a cell phone video of the shooting and them planting it would be caught on her video and none of the eyewitnesses have given any reports of the police dropping a gun to plant evidence.

    I'll use this link for now, but I'd just watch the news report at the end.
    http://bluelivesmatter.blue/proof-ke...ont-scott-gun/

    EDIT: Here.
    Last edited by Since86; 09-23-2016 at 02:55 PM.
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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Ha, these arguments are gold.

    EDIT: dang, why delete sollozo? Hilarious.
    Since you asked....

    From "Hope and Change!" to "Hey, it's not fair to hold him accountable for anything after almost 8 years!"

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I know the police have said they aren't going to release the video of Mr. Scott being shot just yet, but you do know there are still pictures showing a gun laying next to his body right? And before we start getting into whether or not it was planted by officers, just know that Mr. Scott's wife also released a cell phone video of the shooting and them planting it would be caught on her video and none of the eyewitnesses have given any reports of the police dropping a gun to plant evidence.

    I'll use this link for now, but I'd just watch the news report at the end.
    http://bluelivesmatter.blue/proof-ke...ont-scott-gun/

    EDIT: Here.
    Favorite thing about conservatives, everyone has a right to bear arms, unless you're black and shot by cops. That said, I haven't seen your report from any legit source.

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Since you asked....

    From "Hope and Change!" to "Hey, it's not fair to hold him accountable for anything after almost 8 years!"
    Lol, thanks. **** was going great 8 years ago.

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    I also love that nobody addresses want prompted this, the origin of the national anthem. I posted the link, a celebration of slave murder. But you guys are more outraged by the Fever. Okay.

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    Default Re: 2016 Indiana Fever Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    Favorite thing about conservatives, everyone has a right to bear arms, unless you're black and shot by cops. That said, I haven't seen your report from any legit source.

    Ask Sollozzo, I'm a Libertarian. The 2nd amendment doesn't give you the right have a gun in your hand and disregard commands to put it down. The "funny" part about this is that those Conservatives you're deriding was the political party who fought for minority gun rights during Jim Crow. They, and the NRA, backed Otis McDonald against Chicago.
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