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Thread: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty?

  1. #26

    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty?

    If Donnie had some how managed to keep the team together in 2000 I would be in full agreement with those who argue that Donnie is more interested in having a competitive team rather than a Championship team.

  2. #27
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Peck, we know where you stand, but let me say this.

    I would rather have Jermaine O'Neal than Dale Davis. YOU would rather have Jermaine O'Neal than Dale Davis. Any way you spin it, that was a good trade.

    I don't believe that team could have beaten the Lakers in 2001 or 2002, the Spurs in 2003, or the Pistons in 2004. And when you're really honest, I don't think you do either.
    I have a feeling if you are honest you'd say you didn't think the Pistons had a chance against the Lakers last year. But that is beside the point. I just want to say on the subject of the 'almighty Lakers' that I like my chances of winning a championship better by actually getting to the Finals and playing them than I do by throwing up my hands, declaring defeat, and starting over as a mediocre team with 'potential' to someday be back there.

    -Bball
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  3. #28
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    I have a feeling if you are honest you'd say you didn't think the Pistons had a chance against the Lakers last year.
    Go back and find the threads... I picked whoever won the ECFs to win it all. I didn't think they'd win in 5, but I thought they'd win.

    And Peck just laid out a series of changes that would've been tweaks to the core, and not an overhaul like we got, that would put us right here today sans JO.
    Translation: Right where we are today but without our best player. So next year we'd have no championship banner, no franchise player, and no cap room. We'd be mediocre for years to come.
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  4. #29

    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty?

    If I am understanding this correctly are people arguing that trading two players in two years is blowing up a team? If basically the same team with Dale could have won a championship then that same team could have won with JO.

  5. #30
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian
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    If I am understanding this correctly are people arguing that trading two players in two years is blowing up a team? If basically the same team with Dale could have won a championship then that same team could have won with JO.
    Don't forget refusing to go higher after Mark refused Donnie's $32mil conract. And they'd have an unhappy Dale, because he was pissed (and vented to the media) at Donnie for giving him the max.

    Peck and Bball do this whenever we're playing poorly. Someday I'll buy them a copy of this:
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...38200?v=glance
    The New York Times Book Review, Fareed Zakaria
    . . . Arthur Herman has written a brisk survey of declinism from Sophocles to the Unabomber, outlining the long shadow of Western pessimism . . . .His aim is to discredit declinism: "While intellectuals have been predicting the imminent collapse of Western civilization for more than 150 years . . .its influence has grown faster during that period than during any other period of history." He places the worrywarts of today, from Al Gore with his "eco-pessimism" to Robert Bork with his cultural gloom and doom, in a long and misguided Western tradition.
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  6. #31
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty?

    In 2000, I knew that the Pacers were beat by a more powerful team(that's not to say I don't think of the "what if's", such as what would have transpired had Reggie's 3 in game 4 gone in)

    It's 1999 that I can't get over. That was the Pacers chance.. Most had the Pacers going to the finals before the season, and I believe most picked them before the playoffs started. How we let Allan Houston and Marcus Camby spoil our best ever shot at a championship still blows me away. We blew it in 1999, plain and simple.

    I totally disagree with the "Pacers overachieved" from 1994-2000 statement. The Pacers had one of the best teams in the NBA every one of those years, excluding 1996 because of Reggie's injury, and of course our crappy 1997 season.

    I believe that in most seasons, that there are several teams capable of taking at all, and the team that takes it is the team that makes the right plays in crunch time. The Pacers could have taken it to the next level so many times, but didn't. We could argue all day I guess about if the Knicks were better, or if the Magic were better..........but the fact is, the Pacers had their chances to win those series'.

    I think it was time to revamp the roster after 2000. Could the team had gone to the finals again in 2001? Possibly. But. We'll never know.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    For sake of discussion lets say I agree with you (I don't by the way), where would the franchise be right now if the old team was kept together until right now
    Right now? Assuming Walsh didn't suddenly turn into an idiot I'd say your starters would now be:

    PG - Tinsley (backup since he's hurt - or a trade acquisition)
    SG - Reggie
    SF - Al - I think Jalen would have been dealt once the holes became too apparent and I think he'd have gotten good players - impossible to say for what or who - Al would be your major post scorer though. Heck, the Artest deal might even have happened, in which case Al gets dealt for the exact reasons he was traded last summer and you have Jackson and ...
    PF - DD
    C - ???/AD (I think DW would have gotten someone decent here - again, might even have been Brad)

    And of course some pretty solid young talent. And you'd have Bender who would still be worthless and AC who would still be overpaid. I think Donnie would have looked for another good young shooter.

    My one near certainty is that Jalen would have been dealt and DW would have made the deal to fill the team's holes - beyong the Artest trade, you might even have Andre Miller - or Rasheed, Abdur-Rahim - look at any big money player and decide how likely DW could have gotten him for a 20-5-5 player.

    And with AD's and Reggie's contracts expiring this coming summer you'd be looking at being a major FA player.

    A lot of this is throwing spitballs at the wind but I feel fairly certain in saying that Jackson would have retired by now, Jalen would have been traded, and Reggie, DD, Al and AD would have been 4 of your starters for much if not all of the time. You'd have been very competitive - and now is when you'd be looking at a huge re-shuffling of your lineup.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  8. #33
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Don't forget refusing to go higher after Mark refused Donnie's $32mil conract. And they'd have an unhappy Dale, because he was pissed (and vented to the media) at Donnie for giving him the max.

    Peck and Bball do this whenever we're playing poorly. Someday I'll buy them a copy of this:
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...38200?v=glance
    WTF????

    I answered a post by Uncle Buck. We just won a damn playoff game & I'm thrilled beyond belief that Dale Davis is home & we made the playoffs.

    What the hell are you talking about. Now to be fair U.B. was talking to Rimfire but I was under the impression that it was open for anybody to reply to.

    It has nothing to do with the fact that we are winning or losing. It's just the way I've felt since the end of the 00 run. I've always hated what happened no matter if we were 41-41 or last seasons 61 win team.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  9. #34
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Translation: Right where we are today but without our best player. So next year we'd have no championship banner, no franchise player, and no cap room. We'd be mediocre for years to come.

    But is he???

    I keep hearing that Ron Artest is the best player on our team. Which is it?

    As it stands right now today, you are not guaranteed a championship banner next season, you would have your franchise player in Ron Artest & you would certainly have more cap space if you didn't have one player making a max. contract.

    Mediocre is debatable. We didn't have J.O. or Ron or Jamaal for the last 20 games of the season & we weren't mediocre then either.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  10. #35
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Mediocre is debatable. We didn't have J.O. or Ron or Jamaal for the last 20 games of the season & we weren't mediocre then either.
    We were riding on emotion. We were riding on the hands of a 39 year old player. I hope you aren't saying that particular roster for an average, full season, would be anything above mediocre.

    We need JO, Ron, and Tins next year.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFanAdam
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    -snip- and of course our crappy 1997 season.


    You're pushing it, Adam. We don't even hint about that season, let alone discuss it or even acknowledge that it happened.

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  12. #37
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    Wink Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    You're pushing it, Adam. We don't even hint about that season, let alone discuss it or even acknowledge that it happened.


    Believe me Jay......I know not to get you started on 1996-1997, and/or Larry Brown.......;-)

  13. #38
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I keep hearing that Ron Artest is the best player on our team. Which is it?

    As it stands right now today, you are not guaranteed a championship banner next season, you would have your franchise player in Ron Artest & you would certainly have more cap space if you didn't have one player making a max. contract.
    On any given night, Ron could be the best player on the court. He has flashes of brilliance unmatched by anybody on this team (although Jermaine did show those flashes for the first time in his career this year).

    But Jermaine is the franchise player and the face of the franchise. He's solid both on the court and off. He's consistent. He gives you the same thing every night. I consider Ron to be a great basketball player and a valuable member of the Pacers, but I wouldn't call him a franchise player.

    And we wouldn't have any cap space without Jermaine. Our current payroll is $65mil. Take of Jermaine's 14, and we round down to $50mil. That's under the luxury tax, but well over the salary cap. When you add back Dale's $9mil/year (assuming we could have kept him, what with his complaining about his contract), we'd really be at $59 mil. No free agent signings for us!
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  14. #39
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I've always hated what happened no matter if we were 41-41 or last seasons 61 win team.
    Hey, that's fine. I completely believe that you've consistently hated what happened.

    But you didn't say anything about it during last year's 61-win team. In fact, you went out of your way to talk about what a good trade it was and how Donnie was right. I'd be happy to bump the threads.

    So what changed? No matter how you felt about it, it wasn't a topic you cared about last year. But this year it's kept coming up. I'm not ready to believe that it's unrelated to the fact that the Pacers will be eliminated from the playoffs within the next month.
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  15. #40
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    I'm not really sure I can answer the question because I'm not sure which one we're talking about......

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  16. #41
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Hey, that's fine. I completely believe that you've consistently hated what happened.

    But you didn't say anything about it during last year's 61-win team. In fact, you went out of your way to talk about what a good trade it was and how Donnie was right. I'd be happy to bump the threads.

    So what changed? No matter how you felt about it, it wasn't a topic you cared about last year. But this year it's kept coming up. I'm not ready to believe that it's unrelated to the fact that the Pacers will be eliminated from the playoffs within the next month.
    Feel free. In fact I want you to do it.

    But don't cherry pick it, pull up every single thread & post I made about it last year.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  17. #42
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    Cool Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Because God knows we need more random topics in the middle of the playoffs......

  18. #43
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Feel free. In fact I want you to do it.

    But don't cherry pick it, pull up every single thread & post I made about it last year.
    Yowza, that's a lot of threads.

    I'll pull threads that are important to me, and if there are others then you can do the same.
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  19. #44
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty?

    Didn't find the one I was looking for, but I know it's there somewhere. I have to run... I'll try to get back to this tonight.
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  20. #45
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    But you didn't say anything about it during last year's 61-win team. In fact, you went out of your way to talk about what a good trade it was and how Donnie was right. I'd be happy to bump the threads.
    I don't know when Peck said it, it could have been last year, I don't remember the circumstances, but I do remember him saying it was a good trade.

  21. #46
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    I don't know when Peck said it, it could have been last year, I don't remember the circumstances, but I do remember him saying it was a good trade.
    How about the day the trade was made.

    I have never once said it was a bad trade. I even went out of my way the day the trade was made saying that it was probably the best trade that Donnie could have gotten. People forget that Portland took Dale for J.O. over the offer of Mutumbo for J.O. from Atlanta.

    I always blamed Davis in the case of the trade & never once blamed Walsh for making the move itself & you know I would never back Walsh in almost anything but I know for a fact that Dale (at Kevin's urging) was an @ss in Walsh's office.

    But the trade & the fight over the contract are only part of the story, it goes back a year before that over the arbitration fight & there I do disagree with Walsh.

    My entire contention of my post to Anthem was that he contended that I did this whenever we were losing or playing bad.

    1. We had just won a playoff game & we have a winning record for the year.

    2. I was responding to a thread that asked the question if that team could have been a dynasty. I did not even start the thread I was just responding to an open question.

    3. Bulletproof had made another thread questioning the process over the past 5 years.

    Taking the three above things into consideration I just fail to see where Bball & myself are just responding when we are losing.

    Now to the trade itself. On a talent level it's not even close. Jermaine O'Neal is a top 10 player in the NBA (you can argue if he is higher & I wont disagree) & Dale Davis is winding down his career.

    If all you are ever gonna look at is numbers & stats. it's not even close. But if you ever watched Dale Davis play with the Pacers you understand that Dale's value is not measured in game stats.

    That is why I have always said it was never the one sided robbery that everyone else said it was.

    I think it's not unfair to say that if it weren't for Dale Davis the Indiana Pacers would not be in the playoffs this season.

    Now to the quote both of you are looking for I suspect that it was probably right after J.O. signed his long term deal with the Pacers.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  22. #47
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty?

    Thus discussion is giving me a headache. When is Ron coming back ?

    OK, I will say this. My comment about the Pacers over achieving is a compliment to the players, coaches, front office, and fans. That team was put together perfectly, the players fit together perfectly. The chemistry (except in 1997) was perfect. That team was truly better than the sum of their parts.

    Pacers never at one time had a top 10 player on any of those teams. Their margin of error was smaller than most of the other top teams. Their talent level was not as strong as other top teams.

    In each of the playoff series the Pacers lost during those years, except in 1996, I believe the Pacers lost to the better team.

    1995 and 1999 were the two toughest losses. Pacers should have beaten the Magic in 1995 and should have beaten to the Knicks in 1999.

    However the Rockets in 1995 and the Spurs in 1999 were better teams than the Pacers. One way I know that is because they soundly beat teams that just beat the Pacers.

  23. #48
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone believe that the Pacers' Finals team could have been the next Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Thus discussion is giving me a headache. When is Ron coming back ?

    OK, I will say this. My comment about the Pacers over achieving is a compliment to the players, coaches, front office, and fans. That team was put together perfectly, the players fit together perfectly. The chemistry (except in 1997) was perfect. That team was truly better than the sum of their parts.

    Pacers never at one time had a top 10 player on any of those teams. Their margin of error was smaller than most of the other top teams. Their talent level was not as strong as other top teams.

    In each of the playoff series the Pacers lost during those years, except in 1996, I believe the Pacers lost to the better team.

    1995 and 1999 were the two toughest losses. Pacers should have beaten the Magic in 1995 and should have beaten to the Knicks in 1999.

    However the Rockets in 1995 and the Spurs in 1999 were better teams than the Pacers. One way I know that is because they soundly beat teams that just beat the Pacers.
    But is that because in both cases each team had to play a grueling series vs. us & both Houston & San Antonio got to rest up for a few days before having to go to battle.

    I will always believe that the 94 Rockets benfitted beyond imagination because the Knicks had to play us in a very very hard fought 7 game series while the Rockets had 4-5 days off to rest.

    I'm not saying that either team wouldn't have won, but IMO I wouldn't just blow off the fact that each team had a very tough fight vs. us while in the west both teams had pretty much a cakewalk.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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