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Thread: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

  1. #26
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Anybody have insider access?

    http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/fba/pla...ive?statsId=50

    EDIT: I found a bugmenot login, but I still can't access the page. It's the top hit on this google search:

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...oz&btnG=Search

  2. #27
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Well, we're into a little back and forth right now because of some of the hyperbole in Peck's post.

    However, I do want to compliment Peck on a really, really well-written summary of the season. Great drama, great passion. Good memory for details. Thanks.

  3. #28
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    If this is the quote you are talking about

    "It was hard, man," Bender said. "We were shorthanded and I had to sit. There really wasn't too much I could do about it."


    then I'm not apologizing. That just tells me that in an article written a month & a half after the brawl he stated it was hard for him but he couldn't do anything.

    Find me something where he said he went management & asked to play.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  4. #29
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    then I'm not apologizing. That just tells me that in an article written a month & a half after the brawl he stated it was hard for him but he couldn't do anything.

    Find me something where he said he went management & asked to play.
    I doubt I'll find it for you, because it seems that everyone involved (Bender, his teammates, the coaching staff, the medical staff, and the front office) knew he wasn't able to play yet. We know that he wanted to play before the medical staff would let him.

    Carlisle:
    I know he's worked awfully hard. I know he's doing much better. But this is a situation where I just think we've got to err on the side of reality. We're not sure exactly how long it could take. I'm glad to hear him talk about playing. That's great news. But until he's back, I'm not going to get sucked in.
    Jermaine:
    "We just want him to take his time," said O'Neal. "When we have really anticipated him coming back and playing, he's kind of taken two steps back, so we don't want to put any added pressure on him. Come back when you get the opportunity. It's a marathon. It's a long season. We haven't even reached the (All-Star) break yet.
    Find me any quote from anybody that suggests that it was primarily an issue of being willing to play through pain. The kid had a legit injury. I'm not saying he's not a walking injury magnet, because he is. But just because he's more likely to get injured doesn't mean he's not really injured.

  5. #30

    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Mostly I want to say I like the post and loved how our team kept competing through out the season.

    A little bit of my just can't understand the love for Cro. The biggest difference between Jeff's offensive game and Cro's is: Jeff gets the ball at the top of the arc, his man is sagging in the middle and Jeff passes to the wing. Cro get the ball in the same position, his man sags in the middle, Cro shots a 3 and the other team gets the rebound.

  6. #31
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Anybody have insider access?

    http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/fba/pla...ive?statsId=50

    EDIT: I found a bugmenot login, but I still can't access the page. It's the top hit on this google search:

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...oz&btnG=Search
    There is a lot more info but this pretty much is the info we need.

    JONATHAN BENDER NEWS ARCHIVE

    Mar. 16
    DL Bender (knee) isn't expected to play again this season, the Indianapolis Star reports.

    "I don't think we're counting on Jonathan being back this season," Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh said. "We want him to get his leg back. Dan said Jonathan will definitely play in the NBA. We're willing to let this happen for the future. If Dan says he can play before the season ends, that's fine, but we're not counting on it."

    Feb. 28
    DL Bender (knee) isn't close to returning to action and might even be done for the season, the Indianapolis Star reports.

    "He's continuing to make improvements, but I wouldn't say there's any short-term possibility of him being activated," coach Rick Carlisle said. "It's more of a long-range thing. If he keeps doing well, then it's possible before the end of the season we can activate him."

    Feb. 4
    DL The Pacers will place Bender on the injured list prior to Friday night's game against Dallas to allow his right knee to heal, the Indianapolis Star reports.

    Bender sat out the second half of Wednesday's loss to Toronto after playing just seven first-half minutes. Bender said scar tissue above his right knee, the result of his growth spurt in high school, causes his hamstring to slip out of alignment. It's like I'm running with no hamstring, so there's pressure on (the) front of my knee," he said. Apparently there will always be setbacks with Bender's knee, according to his physical therapist.

  7. #32
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Thanks, Jose. You're the man.

    Is there any way you can find this bit? It would be nice to have context.

    ... Bender will probably need surgery next summer for the right knee. "There's really nothing I can do about it," he said. ...

  8. #33
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    While you are looking Jose can you find the article where Scot Pollard called Jon Bender a sissy? It's the same one where he called Jeff Foster Rick Carlisle's golden boy.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  9. #34
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Since Bender has been mentioned I feel I should say something...
    I'll say what I said several months back: We're watching the final chapter in Bender's career. It's now all about the waiting game to see who finally 'makes the call' and ends the charade.

    I tend to think Bender could play some... he might not be a jumping jack but he could've been a warm body when the team was short in warm bodies. Even if it was only mop up duty or emergency minutes.

    ...But I don't know... If he says he can't play due to pain then I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in that regard BUT he also must remember if he can't play he can't help the team and so his value at that point is nil. I don't know how long a team can hold a roster spot for a player that cannot help his team.

    --
    Good post, Peck.


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  10. #35
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    I'm still trying to figure the dynamics involved with JO-Pollard and JO-Foster vs. Foster-Pollard or Davis +either Pollard or Foster. Why do they play better with Davis than with JO. It's obvious they do but why? Is it DD's defense? And is that an indictment against JO for not being able to make his teamates better?

    As for Bender...(blush)

    well, I still hold out hope.


    That was a HUGE and I mean HUGE admission on your part Uncle Buck. So I will make mine too....I smiled when I saw Ron on the bench the other night.
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  11. #36
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Since this is now a Bender thread, I'll join in...

    While we are sidetracked on whether or not Jon was physically albe to play post-brawl we are missing one significant point:

    If Jon can't jump, he has NO game. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. He as never learned the fundementals of basketball. Peck's right on a the money with: "If he can't jump, he can still box out. He can't cut, he can still set a pick." The trouble is that Jon has never learned to do these things. Some players overcome a lack of athletism and still excel. Because of their court smarts, or their fundementals, or whatever. Jon can't. If his athletism is gone, then put a fork in him, he's done.

    I agree with the F. He's gotten an "Incomplete" almost every freakin' year. Do I feel sorry for Jon? Damm straight. And I would be very happy if Jon develops into a regular contributor. But this year was still a failure for him.
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  12. #37
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Not to change the topic. But remember several months ago, "Artest's people" indicated that he would address the media sometime in April. If I remember it was April 18th or so. Hopefully he'll wait until the season is over

  13. #38

    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Fine, give Foster an "A" then. I just have some issues with the style he plays but that doesn't take away from the fact that I don't think he doesn't give his all.

    Yes, Jax did, but he was penalized because of his participation in the brawl.
    Neither of these guys deserve an A or a B+. They were outstanding in nothing that had to do with basketball. Nothing. Mediocrity does not deserve a top grade in my school. What's wrong with a gentleman's grade for these gentleman. A nice C+.

    On the basis of your criteria, John Edwards deserves an A. He did his best, met low expectations, and avoided any suspensions all season long.

  14. #39
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Great post Peck. I was missing the Odd Thoughts after the . . . . game. The season recap was great. My reply will seems somewhat scattered in comparison.

    First off, let me help you with Bender. F-. There! The minus comes from the fact the organization kept feeding us a line of BS every time we turned around about his status. I ended up being right, the story would play itself out without my comment

    I have been very happy with what we got from the likes of our apparent "underachievers" - Cro, Pollard, Foster and Gill. Each gave us all he had to give. Austin did his part, it just came right after the brawl. I don't think I've ever seen a player more beat up over a season still trying than Austin. Pollard and Foster battle and they both have earned Warrior status in my mind. And I even started a thread recently about why there was so much hate for Gill. The guy was a third-string guard for crying out loud. He wasn't here to start - or even back up. He more than pulled his weight. And UB, I think you are wrong. I think Foster is as popular as Cro.

    Harrison. What a find! However, I do admit to being a bit antsy when he went on the IL. The pre-draft talk started to come to the forefront with me. More than anything, I want to see the Harrison we saw early on. The eloquent, funny big guy in the paint. Please David - be that player.

    James Jones. Proved again there is a place in this league for a shooter. I'm also impressed how he learned that faking and stepping inside the arc to make 2 is more than important than staying planted outside of it.

    Fred Jones. Despite the slump, Fred may be the only guy we have that is really a fuse. One play from him can light the fire.

    Jackson. I would like for him to tone the emotions down a bit. But he is exactly what I want from my 2 guard next season. Somebody who will take the shot and take the consequences.

    Tinsley and O'Neal. Early in Jamaal's rookie season I was just astounded at how this guy could pass. Then he fell into a Rucker ball player and I thought his disposition stunk. I really believed he was uncoachable. This year he showed me sign of having worked on his game and the ability to be a floor leader. We need that. I am as concerned as everyone else about his physical breakdowns. We need Jamaal and what he brings to the court. As for JO, I truly believe this off-season and next year will prove to be the most scrutinized of his career here. He's a scorer. But he needs to do learn to box out, rebound and pass to be great. His game, as it is right now, will not sustain him in the eyes of Indiana basketball fans. As far as leadership, Jermaine needs to walk the walk.

    Anthony Johnson. This is where I take a hit. Nothing more than a back-up. I hate watching his game. He may be the most mechanically flawed guard I have ever seen. He comes up the floor straight up and down. He has horrible hands for a guard. He puts himself and his teammates in bad situations at times because of his indecision and I find it funny people hated Travis Best because of his pounding the ball at the top of the key until the clock ran down. Johnson does the same thing only he just stands there. I give him major props for being able to score late this season. Obviously he can shoot and that opened things a bit for him to have some nice assist games. But to me, he's lucky he was scoring because I didn't think he brought much else to the floor. Certainly not leadership.

    Artest. Never has there been a player who owes more to his team and the fans. You don't easily forgive a guy who tanks a potential championship season. ZERO antics next year!

    Dale Davis. I could write till the end of time about how I feel about Dale but Peck has said it all. He turned things around for us. I'm happy as hell he's back home.

    Reggie. It's all been said. It's all been done. I am so happy I defended him over the past year. He proved me right.

    Right after the brawl I stated what this team was doing would long stay in the memory of Indiana basketball fans. I believe I'm right. It's been miraculous what has happened here. No, we may not have anything left in the tank but that's not important to me. Before the season, nothing less than the NBA championship would have been a success. To have witnessed this kind of adversity and be where they are today makes me as proud of this team as any other since I've been a fan.

    Lastly, there is only one A+ grade I would give out. And that is to the job Carlisle and his staff did. I'm sure they had to reach way back in the coaching manuals to pull out some of the things they did - maybe even written a few themselves.
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  15. #40
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    I don't give a **** about Bender, he meant nothing to the Pacers this season, so I'm going to go back to Peck's original post:

    Player Peck's Grade Jay's Grade Comment

    Anthony Johnson
    Peck: I give A.J. a solid solid B for the season but he gets an A for the way he ended the year.
    Jay: I agree, and I didn't think AJ had that in him. The key to AJ's game is persistence, in short spurts he looks awful but he always seems to eventually figure out how to make a positive impact. He was getting enough minutes late in the season that he lifted himself out of the "**** away a lead" doldrums and has certainly been one of our top players over the past two months. I still wonder if he's wearing a glass slipper or concerned about a pumpkin reappearing at midnight, but thank-you AJ for really overachieving this season when the team needed you.

    Reggie Miller.
    Peck: A B+ for the season an A+ for the way he brought us back during the playoff run.
    Jay: That's too low. At 39 years old, he's going to receive a bunch of 3rd-team all-NBA votes. What we really should do is go back and make his grades from the last two or three seasons even lower. But I'll give him an A for the entire season, he also helped us much more than we expected when he returned from the I.L in early December - before JO's suspension ended.

    Eddie Gill.
    Peck: Solid C
    Jay: I agree. For a third-stringer, he's done his job.

    Jamaal Tinsely.
    Peck: I'll go with a solid B but if you wanna disagree either way I'm willing to change this.
    Jay: I've got to go with a "C" here. He gets an "A" for on-court performance but a "D" for his inability to stay healthy. It may not be his fault, but I'd get a "D" on a Physics 101 exam, too, just because I'm not smart enough. He's fragile. Man, I love his game but he's fragile. If he figures out how to stay healthy, he'll earn numerous "A's", but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Fred Jones.
    Peck: Solid B
    Jay: I'm certainly not on the Fred Jones bandwagon. At times he looked great. But unlike some of the other young players, I'm not sure the post-suspension experience truly helped Fred. He seems to be on his way to becoming a "black hole". You know, the ball goes to him but it never comes back out.

    But for the couple of games he started at PG on the west coast, I haven't been impressed at all with his ballhandling or passing. His 3pt FG% has improved but I still don't have much confidence that he'll hit "the next one." I do like his ability to penetrate and finish, but I don't think he uses it enough. And somebody please teach him about a mid-range game.

    Jay's grade: C

    Stephan Jackson.
    Peck: Had runs where he looked like an all-star then had times he looked like a chump.
    I give him a B-
    Jay: For the same reasons, I'll give him a "C".

    James Jones.
    Peck: This guy was supposed to be the designate I.R.L. person & now has played his way into a nice mid-level or less contract.
    I give him a C+
    Jay: I agree

    Ron Artest.
    Peck: Ron quit on the team & the season was never going to be the same after that even before the fight.
    I give him a F
    Jay: I agree

    Jermaine O'Neal.
    Peck: I give J.O. a solid B
    Jay: Like Tinsley, he'd get an "A" if he could stay on the court. To JO's credit, his injuries over the past couple of seasons are due to freaky circumstances. Not his fault, and I truly think his body is still somewhat broken down from all the summers representing USA Basketball. He needed more time off than he was allowed last summer, and he'll need more time off than he will be allowed this summer. I frankly wish he'd spend November and December on the I.L., letting his body, that shoulder, his knees, fully recover so we can see the JO - MVP Candidate - again. Jay's Grade: B+

    Austin Croshere.
    Peck: I give Austin a solid A. Feel free to disagree.
    Jay: Austin's a winner. Period. There's no reason for him to be as successful as he's been, except that he's a winner. I agree with Peck's grade.

    Jon Bender.
    Peck: I give Jon an F
    Jay: I give Jon a W/F (Withdrawal while failing) but I really don't care enough to discuss him any further.

    Jeff Foster.
    Peck: I give Jeff a B+
    Jay: No way. I know the hip's been a problem all season. But I still think I could push this guy around in the post. If he'd been a backup all season, he might get a B-/B for playing this way. But he was a starter most of the season, and Rick gave him legacy starts immediately upon his return, even though he was playing like crap at the time. C-.

    Scot Pollard.
    Peck: I give Scot a solid A
    Jay: God knows I was Scot's third-strongest critic on here last season. But I've been really impressed when he's been healthy enough to play this season. Too bad its only about once every two weeks. B-.

    Dale Davis.
    Peck: A++
    Jay: Incomplete. Over the last week or two, he's looked exhausted to me. I think he's been invaluable to the team so far but I'm not convinced he's got much left, nor do I believe he can keep it up over 82-games at more than about 12-18 mpg.

    John Edward.
    Peck: Hard to be realistic about him. For a 15th man I've seen worse. I'll be generous & give him a C-
    Jay: Why not?

    David Harrison.
    Peck: I give him a B-
    Jay: I was sky-high on DH early in the season, but I'm concerned about his ability to play regular minutes for 82 games. So I concur with a B-.

    What, no grades for Curry, Johnsen, Fowlkes, or Haislip?
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  16. #41
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Jeff Foster.
    Jay: But he was a starter most of the season, and Rick gave him legacy starts immediately upon his return, even though he was playing like crap at the time. C-.
    Yes, getting 17, 18, 16, 12, 13 rebounds is really crap. I'll asume you just are forgetting, but he was averageing over 12 rebounds per game for the first 10-15 games he came back. There was a point where he would have led the NBA in rebounding if he had played enough games. There were threads started asking if Jeff has a chance to make the allstar team this season.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Good comments ABA. I sometimes find myself disagreeing with you, but I always respect your thoughts. My only disagreement would be with Jackson. Now, IF he goes back to being the player I saw the first of the year well then welcome aboard...but since his return I have seen little I liked. I consider him to be selfish and erratic. But that's my opinion. I wonder how they'll exist if RA comes back and Jax still dominates the ball.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Jeff Foster.
    Peck: I give Jeff a B+
    Jay: No way. I know the hip's been a problem all season. But I still think I could push this guy around in the post. If he'd been a backup all season, he might get a B-/B for playing this way. But he was a starter most of the season, and Rick gave him legacy starts immediately upon his return, even though he was playing like crap at the time. C-.
    When Jeff first came back he played great, then he ran into various other injuries and tailed off..........

    EDIT-I should've known I wouldn't beat UB to that one.......
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  19. #44
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat
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    When Jeff first came back he played great, then he ran into various other injuries and tailed off..........

    EDIT-I should've known I wouldn't beat UB to that one.......
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  20. #45

    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    As far as the Bender thing, I'm not sure we will ever know who is right. Since we aren't Jon Bender none of us can really tell how his leg feels. And since I believe most people on the forum are neither licensed medical doctors or privy to the Jon Bender file, it is all going to be conjecture and gut feelings.

    You then have to weigh the line between being tough and stupid. Playing games like Larry Bird did and then having to wear a back brace all night is a rather tough thing to do. However, it is also arguable that it isn't the most intelligent thing to do. If we are just talking pain, then I'd like to see him tough it out. However, if we are talking about pain and increasing the chance of either 1.) Making it worse or 2.) Causing an even longer setback... not a smart thing to do. I've lambasted JO for not being tough early on in his career, so I'm not trying to be hypocritical. The pain vs. harming yourself even worse test will answer the question.

    Reggie asked Rick if he could come back and Carlisle said "No." Bender told everybody he was ready to come back and Carlisle basically said "He's being more optimistic than I am."

    For his career it is tough to argue that Bender isn't an F or an I. Whether he doesn't produce b/c of effort or injuries is debatable. What isn't debatable is that his contribution to the W's and L's of this team has been a complete void.

    I find it interesting that Tinsley, who just has a sore foot , is given so much leeway.

    I can't understand the Croshere grade. Perhaps it would be better if you seperated the grades. Give one grade for effort and one for productivity. I can agree that Austin gets an "A" for effort. He did play through nagging injuries and is one of the regulars to put in extra practice time. However, there is no way he gets an "A" for productivity.

    Dale gets a solid "B+" He was an "A" when he came here, but he's had some games that pulled him down just a tad. One thing is for certain though... we need this guy. Did you notice who pulled down the Reggie misfire against Chicago? I had to assume that was Peck's favorite play of the game.

    It's weird. I'm not sure I could give any one Pacer player an "A" for the year, but I would give the team an "A." I guess that is what has made this team so much fun to root for. I just hope they have some reserves in the tank for the playoffs. Multiple people are going to have to play out of their head for us to make some noise.

    Will it be Miller? Pollard? JJones? FJones? Davis?

    I have no idea, but I'm going to watch our team

  21. #46
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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  22. #47
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    I sometimes find myself disagreeing with you
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  23. #48
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    I'm a little surprised Fred Jones is not getting more credit for his play this season. Up until he broke his finger two weeks ago, he was shooting very well and having a great season. If you are going to credit Cro for his post brawl play, then Freddie needs as much or even more credit. He was forced into a role he had never played before a role that he was not expecting, in many ways he was the Pacers best player for a few weeks in early December

  24. #49
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    I agree UB. I guess in my mind it was more expected than surprised by it but it's a good point.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  25. #50
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Yes, getting 17, 18, 16, 12, 13 rebounds is really crap. I'll asume you just are forgetting, but he was averageing over 12 rebounds per game for the first 10-15 games he came back. There was a point where he would have led the NBA in rebounding if he had played enough games. There were threads started asking if Jeff has a chance to make the allstar team this season.
    We've covered this many times before, his one dimension just doesn't impress me that much. Most of his ORs were wasted, so they don't really count. He can't defend the post, he's not a weakside shotblocker. How many difficult rebounds has he gathered in traffic all season? Not many. He can't catch the ball, he can't tip in into the basket. He'd make a better sixth-man and as I said I'd give him an entirely different grade if he were a sixth-man vs. a starter.

    To his credit, he seems to have stopped attempting put-backs, because he just has no ability to hit those. Just get the rebound and quickly throw the ball to a teammate, Jeff.

    I just don't like Jeff's game, period. When he's on the court, I keep looking at the bench wondering who else should be playing. And the answer is, all of our big men except Edwards.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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