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Thread: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    My friends it's been a wild ride. We've been up, we've been down, we've been twisted all the way around. But, as a franchise, we have not been defeated.

    The season started off with a winning record, but if you will recall the season didn't begin without it's share of turmoil either. Jeff Foster needed suregery, Anthony Johnson & Reggie both required time off for rehab while they nuresed injury's from the pre-season. Bender (as usual) also was unable to go & even J.O. had some on again off again type injury's.

    But no matter what Pacer was on the floor on any given night, for the first 9 games of the season we were the best team in the N.B.A.

    With a combination of Ron Artest & Jackson our perimeter play was as good as it's ever been & probably was better than it has ever been for that matter.

    Then came the fatefull night in Detroit.

    Let's not rehash it here, let's just all agree that this night deeply impacted (thanks Jay) our franchise.

    This could have been the point right there that our team packed it in for the season. No team, to the best of my memory, has ever lost that many members of it's core unit & survived such a blow.

    But then a something special happened. On a night that the team had 6 active players, none of which were even slotted to be in the top 8 before the season started, we took a rejuvinated Orlando Magic team to the buzzer.

    This is a night when a rookie who was the last pick in the first round outplayed the # 1 pick in the draft.

    The night a third string point guard played every single min. of the game and most of the time played vs. a star player in this league while never backing down.

    This is the night a second round draft pick from the year before, who was not even slated to be on the active roster started against an aging superstar & recorded his first career double/double.

    This was a night when the slam dunk champion proved he was no Harold Minor.

    But most important of all this was a night when the fans of Indiana stood together with it's franchise as though we were a band of brothers & refused to let the team die.

    Victory was not ours that night, but in this case while we didn't win that battle we won the war.

    The war was the N.B.A. season & both the players & the fans that night decided that we would not be victims. We may or may not be the champions of the world, but it would have been easy for everyone to give in & just say this was a lost season.

    That may have been the best Indiana basketball I've ever seen. Notice what I said, I said Indiana baskteball. Not Pacers or N.B.A. but this was pure Hoosier spirit on the line that night & no not the college Hoosiers but the movie Hoosiers. It may sound corny but that one night was Magic.

    We then went on to beat the next three opponets. Will anyone who was ever there ever forget the heart of Scot Pollard vs. the Timberwolves? His shadowboxing after a big play will be burned in my memory forever.

    But then again, we were struck with injury's. Just as we were embarking on our west coast journey Pollard was sidelined with a soar back.

    Croshere also was playing with an assortment of injury's but never once asked for quarter.

    We lost a stretch of seven games & in some ways we were at our darkest hour. We had so many players coming & going during this time frame that if it wasn't so tragic it would have been comical.

    Into our lexicon of players we will forever need to add the names of Trumaine Folkes, Brittan Johnson, Marcus Haislip & Michael Curry. This was our bench for several games.

    Of course we had some of our regulars start coming back but because of the inconsistancy of who was available from night to night we could never get a groove going on offense.

    We finally got J.O. back at Christmas then we got Jax back a little later. But in the meantime we would win some & then we would lose some.

    It is a great credit to our franchise that we won some at all. There were nights that we fielded some talent that wold really not be any better than the Atlanta Hawks but we still managed to win around .500% of our games.

    Jamaal Tinsely played brilliantly but then a combo of illness & injury's did him in for a time & then a bizarre injury did him in for the season.

    Jermaine tried to be it all for awhile but after a time he just wore down from the pressure he was placing on himself.

    Then a tragic hit by Franco Elson put him out for over 20 games to end the season.

    Frankly at this point it looked all but lost. A playoff birth was looking more like wishfull thinking than a reality. Several teams were playing well at that point & frankly we didn't look at that great for a time but we were still holding our own.

    Then it happened.

    ******WARNING Blatant Dale Davis support to follow************

    The Warrior was home & from his first night on the floor he showed the way to physical play, defense, rebounding & brought back an overall swagger that our team so desperatley needed.

    It is no coincidence that Reggie Miller began to play better. Yes, you can say that it might be because he had to because Jermaine was gone or it might have been because he had finally admitted he was retireing but you cannot deny that he was more open on shots off of screens than he had been in five years.

    Jackson at this time also decided to pickup his play & helped lead the team to a string of victory's that helped set a course that would take us to 6th place in the East.

    Now let's look at that for moment. 6th place in the east is disapointing when you look at it on the surface. I mean last season we were the # 1 team in the league & we were expected to be almost that good again.

    But with everything & I mean everything that happened to this team we still are in 6th place with a real chance of getting out of the first round.

    Let's look at the Nets for just a min. This season they have lost one great player to free agency & lost one star player for the year to injury. They, for the most part, have had the survices of thier best player all season though & it still took them making a trade to get a superstar player to come in & just still barley made the playoffs.

    The # 2 team in the N.B.A. last season did not even make the playoffs this year & they did not lose one of thier star players & certainly had thier superstar player all season long.

    They are not in the playoffs & we are # 6 in the east.

    So, while this has been one hell of a year, I would not trade it for anything.

    I again quote Frederich Nietzsche.

    "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger".

    Nothing could be truer.

    Now let's look at the players.

    Anthony Johnson. Most of you were ready to run him out of town on a rail early in the season. Ragnar would have led the lynch mob . However something clicked inside A.J.'s head as the season went along. Not only did he become a solid backup point guard but somehow some way he became a solid starter in the abscence of Jamaal. There were times he was putting up numbers that none of us would have ever dreamed possible.

    I give A.J. a solid solid B for the season but he gets an A for the way he ended the year.

    Reggie Miller. What can we say. He defered way to much & I suspect he has deferred way to much for the past 5 years. But once he said he was retireing & once Dale came home he became the Miller that we have watched for so many years during the 90's. Shot after big shot after big shot. If he was 39 he was the best 39 year old to have ever played the two guard spot. I thought Ewing was possible, I honestly thought West was out of the question. but now he has gone on & passed the legend & in turn has become one of his own. It was a Magic year for him & for those of us that got to watch him. I know a lot of you would have preffered for the entire team to be here for the season but I don't beleive that you would have gotten the Miller time that you got to end the season with.

    A B+ for the season an A+ for the way he brought us back during the playoff run.

    Eddie Gill. As a third string point guard not to shabby. Problem is he has been forced to be the backup p.g. for most of the season & even on rare occasions he has been the primary pg. Let's be honest, he's not going to lead a team to a title. But he can offer solid relief & he has hit some big shots for us & has provided decent defense on occasion.

    Solid C

    Jamaal Tinsely. Injury's have plagued him all season. Unfortunately this is getting to be a theme with him. But when he played he was beyond good. I called him the best pg. in the N.B.A. at one point. I don't back off that statement. But him being gone so much has really hurt. It's hard to give him a grade because I don't want to fault him for being injured but there were times that he didn't play for flu's etc.

    I'll go with a solid B but if you wanna disagree either way I'm willing to change this.

    Fred Jones. At times he was breathtakingly good. Right after the suspensions kicked in I thought we had found the answer to the two guard spot. But he then had some major slumps as well. But this is still only his third year in the N.B.A. & he has some growing to do. He has developed a good 3 pt. shot, he is decent driving the lane, now I want to see him develop a solid 10-15' jumper.

    Solid B

    Stephan Jackson. Had runs where he looked like an all-star then had times he looked like a chump. However he never shied away from taking a big shot & at the end of the day he hit a lot of them for us. He played solid if not spectacular defense all season long. He was not a peacemaker by any means on 11/19 & was one of the reasons why our season ended up the way it did, but to his credit he came back & was a solid citizen all season for us.

    I give him a B-

    James Jones. This guy was supposed to be the designate I.R.L. person & now has played his way into a nice mid-level or less contract. He's had a couple of stages for the season. After the fight he was magnificant. He provided defense & rebounding from the three spot & he hit some long balls for us. But then he hit the wall. Then after riding the wall for awhile he came back to be a solid contributer during the playoff push.

    I give him a C+

    Ron Artest. This won't be popular here & frankly I don't care. We can (& I'm sure we will) debate who was & who was not at fault in Detroit till hell freezes over. But one undeniable truth is there, Ron Artest was punished because he was Ron Artest. You can argue the merits of that (& God knows Able is heating up the keyboards right now doing so) but it was every past deed the man did that gave him the year. Even his biggest supporters (Suaveness & Uncle Buck) agreed he deserved a long suspension so even if Stern did what they wanted Ron still would have been gone no less than 40 games. He is a great player, maybe one of the best players in the N.B.A. & he may be the best Pacer ever for all I know. But there has never EVER been a player who has hurt this team more in their careers more than Ron Artest did this season. He played great for a short time but let's never forget that prior to the fight Ron quit on the team & the season was never going to be the same after that even before the fight.

    I give him a F

    Jermaine O'Neal. A lapse of Judgement to be sure on the 19th of Nov. But because of who he has been in his career the Arbtrator reduced his sentance & the league did not fight it. After that though Jermaine was just never the same. He tried to hard to make up for time lost & then he tried to carry the entire team on his back. There were nights he could then there were nights he could not. But in the end he began to focus to much on one side of the floor. His rebounding suffered, his defense lapsed. I want J.O. to go away this summer & just relax. Let his body heal & get his head right. Now to be honest he had to fight with Artest before the entire brawl happened & I think that weighed on him as well. Next season we will count on him & we will need him in the playoffs. But I think it's best if he just look back on the season as a learning experiance.

    I give J.O. a solid B

    Austin Croshere. He lost his shot. Somewhere someway after he broke his ribs he totally lost his ability to hit a three. For that he is castigated by people. But I go back to right after the brawl & there was one player who fought tooth & nail night after night after night & it was Austin Croshere. People always wonder why this guy gets the most cheers. It's simple, in Indiana we love a hustler & gutsy player & Austin is this in spades. He has gone from 11th man to 6th man to starter back to 8th man down to 10th man to starter & everywhere inbetween this season & has not once balked at doing so, never once sniped in public about his role. He is solid, he is professional & above all he was a calming influance & veteran leader to a team that desperately needed it.

    I give Austin a solid A. Feel free to disagree.

    Jon Bender. I will do nothing more than quote Roaming Gnome from our party after the Brawl. In our teams darkest hour in our most desperate need Bender was once again not there to help. Even his apologist are getting tired of this old story. I understand the knee & I understand why there will be excuses that will follow. But whenever I see Scot Pollard wincing in pain running up & down the court on that bad back or I see Jermaine O'neal playing on a shoulder that is not healed & still hurting I fume over thinking that Jon could not have come in & just stood at the three point line & fouled somebody. Reggie came out & told anybody who would listen to him that he wanted to be activated if for no other reason than to give somebody a 3 min. break in the game. Jon collected his paycheck & a lot of times he hasn't even been attending the games. Those of us who have read Montieth long enough know some of his code words & when he said the other day that there are players who are obviously willing to play with some pain & others who are not there was no doubt who he was talking about.

    I give Jon an F

    Jeff Foster. The fact that he is even trying to run on a bad hip that is still in pain just proves my F for Bender is right. Look, I make no lie on this. I can't stand Foster & O'Neal together. But Foster & Davis was great. Foster & Croshere is great. He is one of the best backup centers in the N.B.A. He is getting better about being physical & I think that his hip will make him relie less on athleticism & more on knowledge & strength. He helps.

    I give Jeff a B+

    Scot Pollard. I see him & I want Bender to burn in hell. Ok, maybe that's a little strong but not by much. He will Never EVER live up to the trade. It was a God awfull horrible trade. But it's not his fault. He gave us everything he had & that is all you can ever ask from any person.

    I give Scot a solid A

    Dale Davis. I'll be hones, I had no idea what to expect from him. I haven't seen him play in years & to I figured if he was getting DNP-Cd's in Golden State then he probably is done. I figured he would come here & maybe get 15 min. a game & I hoped he would just provide vet. leadership & show the young guys how to play the right way. In my wildest dreams I had no idea that he would be as good as he ended up being. I don't feel that I am overstating this. Without Dale Davis the Indiana Pacers don't make the playoffs. If you think that's wrong then I guess I'll not argue, but I just can't see anyway we would have won the games we did without him. He has already in his short time here had three game winning or saving rebounds at the last seconds. He completley shut the middle down for us & has taken us from one of the worst rebounding & defensive teams to one of the best.

    I've tried not to give it to him but I can't help myself A++ Ok, maybe just one plus.

    John Edward. Hard to be realistic about him. For a 15th man I've seen worse.

    I'll be generous & give him a C-

    David Harrison. Man what could have been & hopefully what will someday be. He was the last pick in the first round so even making a team is a good start. But he had dashes where he looked like he would make the all-rookie team. I've already covered him in another thread so I won't rehash.

    I give him a B-

    Ok, fire away at me.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #2
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Suprisingly I would have given AJ a higher grade and Jamaal a lower one. Jamaal has just been out too long. If it is a torn ligament then I understand why he is out so long and it is amazing that he tried to play at all on it. But our wonderfull "news"paper has never felt it was important enough to fully fill us in on that one.

    I agree on Bender send him to Atlanta for nothing in return. Surely some team like Atlanta, Utah, Clippers or Charlotte will be willing to take the risk.


    I assume you would give Dale an A.

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    Suprisingly I would have given AJ a higher grade and Jamaal a lower one. Jamaal has just been out too long. If it is a torn ligament then I understand why he is out so long and it is amazing that he tried to play at all on it. But our wonderfull "news"paper has never felt it was important enough to fully fill us in on that one.

    I agree on Bender send him to Atlanta for nothing in return. Surely some team like Atlanta, Utah, Clippers or Charlotte will be willing to take the risk.


    I assume you would give Dale an A.

    D'oh!!!


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    But then a something special happened. On a night that the team had 6 active players, none of which were even slotted to be in the top 8 before the season started, we took a rejuvinated Orlando Magic team to the buzzer.

    This is a night when a rookie who was the last pick in the first round outplayed the # 1 pick in the draft.

    The night a third string point guard played every single min. of the game and most of the time played vs. a star player in this league while never backing down.

    This is the night a second round draft pick from the year before, who was not even slated to be on the active roster started against an aging superstar & recorded his first career double/double.

    This was a night when the slam dunk champion proved he was no Harold Minor.

    But most important of all this was a night when the fans of Indiana stood together with it's franchise as though we were a band of brothers & refused to let the team die.

    Victory was not ours that night, but in this case while we didn't win that battle we won the war.

    The war was the N.B.A. season & both the players & the fans that night decided that we would not be victims. We may or may not be the champions of the world, but it would have been easy for everyone to give in & just say this was a lost season.

    That may have been the best Indiana basketball I've ever seen. Notice what I said, I said Indiana baskteball. Not Pacers or N.B.A. but this was pure Hoosier spirit on the line that night & no not the college Hoosiers but the movie Hoosiers. It may sound corny but that one night was Magic.
    I really liked the way you stated the importance of this game. I think the we were helped out tremendously by the schedule in this case. Having a game the night after the brawl, before any suspensions were handed down, turned out to be the best thing that could've happened. The fans that turned out to that game didn't know how long the suspensions would be, and the 6 players that played didn't either. The focus that night was to get those players through that game and to keep them in it. The fans and those players reacted like champions. Had the game been 24 hours later, after the death sentence, I'm not sure if the reaction would've been the same. By the time Stern announced the suspensions, the tone for the next 30 games had already been set by that Orlando game. As much of the season that was lost in that Detroit win, much of it was saved the following night in a loss against Orlando.

    By the way Peck, what was your grade for Dale?

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    So, while this has been one hell of a year, I would not trade it for anything.

    Peck, I love your post and I don't mean to nitpick, but are you saying you would not have traded this season for another 61 win healthy season. A 61 season in which 11/19 never took place.

    I'll admit this has been a memorable season, it has been interesting. But give me a season like last year each and every year, please

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    I agree with all Peck especially Artest.

    Guys, Peck was just trying to not show his bias by not giving Dale a grade.

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Peck, I love your post and I don't mean to nitpick, but are you saying you would not have traded this season for another 61 win healthy season. A 61 season in which 11/19 never took place.

    I'll admit this has been a memorable season, it has been interesting. But give me a season like last year each and every year, please
    Depends. If we would have won 61 games again this year would we still have brought in Dale?

    If the answer is no, then yes I would much rather have this season because I don't care how many regular season victory's we would have gotten we still would never have been able to get past Detroit or even Miami without some help in the middle.

    Like I said before I like Jeff as a backup but he is useless vs. the Wallaces or Shaq.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Whacky grading system. Pollard gets an "A" because "He gave us everything he had & that is all you can ever ask from any person."

    You don't think Steve Jackson gave everthing he had?

    Jeff Foster a "B+" and Scot Pollard an "A". Ree-dic-a-less.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Peck, I'm not in the mood to argue about Jeff with you tonight.

    But I do want to argue wabout Bender and maybe Croshere.

    I know Bender only played a few games this season, but did you not see those games. Did you not see him miss an easy dunk. Peck I'm tired of you stating that Bender did not play this season because he cannot play through pain. He did not play this season and may not ever play again because he has serious knee problems that IMO has ended his career. So instead of giving him an F why not wish him well on his after basketball career. Bender is through, he'll never be able to physically play NBA basketball. His body canot stand up to the rigors of the NBA. So instead of ripping the guy why not have a little empathy for him.

  10. #10
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    Scot Pollard. I see him & I want Bender to burn in hell. Ok, maybe that's a little strong but not by much. He will Never EVER live up to the trade. It was a God awful horrible trade. But it's not his fault. He gave us everything he had & that is all you can ever ask from any person.
    It was a good trade when you consider that no player is worth the money Brad is making if they consistently can't finish out the season.

    Enjoyable read, by the way.

    EDIT: If Brad were still here and had to carry the load that Pollard and others have had to this season, I imagine he would have broken down much sooner than he did this year.

  11. #11
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Peck, I'm not in the mood to argue about Jeff with you tonight.

    But I do want to argue wabout Bender and maybe Croshere.

    I know Bender only played a few games this season, but did you not see those games. Did you not see him miss an easy dunk. Peck I'm tired of you stating that Bender did not play this season because he cannot play through pain. He did not play this season and may not ever play again because he has serious knee problems that IMO has ended his career. So instead of giving him an F why not wish him well on his after basketball career. Bender is through, he'll never be able to physically play NBA basketball. His body canot stand up to the rigors of the NBA. So instead of ripping the guy why not have a little empathy for him.
    Absolutley not.

    He gets an F & if there was a way for me to give him an F- I would. You know perfectly well that I have seen every game that Bender played this season just as you did.

    The only differance was that I was not predisposed to make excuses for him like you (& I have a feeling I know who else) do.

    You can say I was predisposed to criticize him & I will not argue but I will argue till hell freezes over that he cannot play basketball because his knee is sore.

    Jeff Fosters hip is sore, he still plays. Scot Pollards back is killing him & he still plays.

    Both of these require every bit as much movement & strength as a knee does. Yet both of these guys never make excuses & never sit unless they have to.

    Here is the big differance. You think Jon can't play basketball because of his knee I think Jon can't play Benderball because of his knee.

    Yes, he couldn't fly through the air & dunk the ball anymore. Why can't he set a screen?

    Yes, he can run as fast for a big man as he once could. Why can't he box out?

    It's the fact that Bender never learned to play basketball other than knowing the ESPN highlights of dunking, three point shooting & shot blocking that is the reason Jon can't play right now.

    You mean Jon's knee, which has not required surgery so far, is more painfull that J.O.'s shoulder? Yes, you don't run on our arms but you do have to lift them to do anything else.

    No, I'm tired of seeing excuses for Jon Bender. I'm willing to say his knee is hurting him, but let's not kid ourselves & say this is a warrior who would soldier through pain at personnel peril either.

    If Bender would have gone public & said "I want to play right now but they won't let me" when the team needed body's after the suspensin then I would be far more forgiving. He certainly could find the time to talk to the press & inform them that this was going to be the year. But no, we got none of that.

    We got silence.

    You see an all-world player who was taken out in the prime of his career by injury's & I see a person who's talents were wasted because he never learned anything beyond athletics.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    I'm not sure what Harrison would have to do to get an A, if you thought this season was a B-. The guy was playing great until he got knocked out standing up. That's not his fault. He then had a knee injury. That's not his fault.

    I thought Harrison is everything and more that we could ever want from a guy picked last in the first round.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman
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    Whacky grading system. Pollard gets an "A" because "He gave us everything he had & that is all you can ever ask from any person."

    You don't think Steve Jackson gave everthing he had?

    Jeff Foster a "B+" and Scot Pollard an "A". Ree-dic-a-less.
    Fine, give Foster an "A" then. I just have some issues with the style he plays but that doesn't take away from the fact that I don't think he doesn't give his all.

    Yes, Jax did, but he was penalized because of his participation in the brawl.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Austin Croshere. He lost his shot. Somewhere someway after he broke his ribs he totally lost his ability to hit a three. For that he is castigated by people. But I go back to right after the brawl & there was one player who fought tooth & nail night after night after night & it was Austin Croshere. People always wonder why this guy gets the most cheers. It's simple, in Indiana we love a hustler & gutsy player & Austin is this in spades. He has gone from 11th man to 6th man to starter back to 8th man down to 10th man to starter & everywhere inbetween this season & has not once balked at doing so, never once sniped in public about his role. He is solid, he is professional & above all he was a calming influance & veteran leader to a team that desperately needed it.

    I give Austin a solid A. Feel free to disagree.

    Yes Indiana does love a "hustler & gutsy player ", but that does not explain why Cro is so popular. If that were the criteria, then Foster would be just as popular and he is not. People like Cro because he was "wronged by Isiah" and "he can shoot". I put those in quotes, because I think they are both myths, but that is why.

    My own survey of family and friends like Cro because he seems like a huge underdog, females think he's cute, and he is losing his hair, so he gets sympathy.

    See Peck, when you say Cro has lost his shot, I consider that very important to his game. He does not bring much us to the table, if he can't shoot, then what else does he bring. IMO not much. The Pacers really needed Cro the past few 6 weeks and he did not come through. Don't forget how much time JJ has spent at power forward.

    I know Cro is injured, I know Cro is a smart player, a veteran who provides leadership, but he really did not come through when needed, except fopr a few weeks after the brawl .

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    I'm not sure what Harrison would have to do to get an A, if you thought this season was a B-. The guy was playing great until he got knocked out standing up. That's not his fault. He then had a knee injury. That's not his fault.

    I thought Harrison is everything and more that we could ever want from a guy picked last in the first round.
    True enough but after he came back from the concussion he became a foul magnate & had regressed a little in conditioning. It got to the point he was getting DNP-CD's because of it.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Yes, he couldn't fly through the air & dunk the ball anymore. Why can't he set a screen?

    Yes, he can run as fast for a big man as he once could. Why can't he box out?
    Peck, you were doing so well, but this post was crap. And I don't even like Bender. The man couldn't RUN. You can't play basketball and not run.

    You mean Jon's knee, which has not required surgery so far, is more painfull that J.O.'s shoulder?
    Peck, his knee DID require surgery. And the other one is scheduled for surgery. You're flat-out wrong here.

    If Bender would have gone public & said "I want to play right now but they won't let me" when the team needed body's after the suspensin then I would be far more forgiving.
    He did say that, Peck.

    You need to let it go, man. We understand you hate the kid. Move on.

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Yes Indiana does love a "hustler & gutsy player ", but that does not explain why Cro is so popular. If that were the criteria, then Foster would be just as popular and he is not. People like Cro because he was "wronged by Isiah" and "he can shoot". I put those in quotes, because I think they are both myths, but that is why.

    My own survey of family and friends like Cro because he seems like a huge underdog, females think he's cute, and he is losing his hair, so he gets sympathy.

    See Peck, when you say Cro has lost his shot, I consider that very important to his game. He does not bring much us to the table, if he can't shoot, then what else does he bring. IMO not much. The Pacers really needed Cro the past few 6 weeks and he did not come through. Don't forget how much time JJ has spent at power forward.

    I know Cro is injured, I know Cro is a smart player, a veteran who provides leadership, but he really did not come through when needed, except fopr a few weeks after the brawl .
    We wouldn't be where we were if it wasn't for those few weeks after the brawl. He was that important.

    As to him not bringing much to the table. We'll just agree to disagree on that. IMO, he is a solid rebounder, is a good physical defender & very rarely hurts the team.

    He is a horrid dribbler though.

    He was wronged by Isiah & he could shoot so you have a point there. The balding head does tend to hurt my eyes so I guess I am sypathetic to him.

    How about this. What if he would change his last name from Croshere to Artest would that help you like him more?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Peck, did you not read the report about how Bender's knee cap is out of alingnment, about how his whole knee is also out of alignment. Bender in the condition he was in this past season was hurting the team when he played, the Pacers held him out.

    I find it very insulting that you and many others say that Bender more or less refused to play.

    He was physically unable to play this season.

    Criticize him all you want for the other things, but not this, not this season.


    Yes if Cro became Austin Artest I would like him more, although he would have a very funny name.

    I have not posted this yet, but I'm very nervous about next season and this season isn't even over yet. Oe good thing and believe me the only good thing about Artest being out is that for 5 months now I can come on here and talk about how good he is, about how much he's needed, and about how he is going to change and this and that. But come November I'll be very nervous.

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    He was wronged by Isiah
    Are you TRYING to drive me to the nuthouse? We've established that he WASN'T wronged by I.Thomas. Despite losing Brad Miller in the frontcourt rotations, Croshere played LESS in Carlisle's first year than in any of the years Thomas was coach. I can't tell what you actually believe and what you're saying to **** off UncleBuck.

  20. #20
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Peck, you were doing so well, but this post was crap. And I don't even like Bender. The man couldn't RUN. You can't play basketball and not run.



    Peck, his knee DID require surgery. And the other one is scheduled for surgery. You're flat-out wrong here.



    He did say that, Peck.

    You need to let it go, man. We understand you hate the kid. Move on.
    Thank you for telling me what to think. I'll be sure to run all of my future post past you for approval.

    Now let's get back to reality on this.

    You are dead wrong. Jon could run, I watched him run. He ran quite well. No, he wasn't as fast as he once was & he wasn't faster than every big man on the floor but he could run.

    As to surgery, which is it. Is he rehabbing a knee from surgery or did he hurt it in a pickup game in the Big Easy? It can't be both. Future surgery is scheduled? It is? When? So if your gonna flat out call me flat out wrong then I guess I'm gonna ask you to prove this. Show me the article that says he is scheduled to get surgery & I'll freely admit I'm wrong on this part of the issue.

    As to saying he wanted to play. Well, again, back this up. Show me the quote & I'll take it back. I've never seen it.

    I've seen Reggie's but I've heard nothing but crickets from Jon on this issue. So if you can show me where it says this at I will gladly write a post apologizing to Jon Bender about this. I'm not the only one who will need to do this though.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  21. #21
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Seems like some guys are getting straight grades and others "value added" -- how well they did in relation to their ability, or, how much they improved from where they were. Here's my list according to "value added." Some guys get two grades based on 1st adn 2nd half of season. Injuries are not factored in.

    AJ: B/A+
    Tins: B
    Foster: B
    Reggie: A+
    Dale: A
    Pollard: B-/A-
    Harrison: A-/C
    Gill: A-
    Jackson: B+
    James Jones: A/B
    Fred Jones: A/B-
    Bender: n/a
    Artest: B/F
    Edwards: Who cares
    Croshere: A-/B-
    Curry: B+

    I've never been a huge Reggie fan. But I think he deserves the top grade this year. Dale has been an incredible lift. I've liked Gill all year, and for a 3rd option (based on Value added) he deserves a high grade. Pollard, IMO, made remarkable improvement over the season. Unrelated, but I'll put it here. James Jones is a gamer. He has intelligence and great basketball intincts. He is everything that Bender is not.

  22. #22
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    How about this. What if he would change his last name from Croshere to Artest would that help you like him more?
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  23. #23
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat
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    That's cold man, that's cold.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Thank you for telling me what to think. I'll be sure to run all of my future post past you for approval.
    I'm glad you agree.

    As to surgery, which is it. Is he rehabbing a knee from surgery or did he hurt it in a pickup game in the Big Easy? It can't be both.
    Sure it can... he has two knees. He was rehabbing the left one when he messed up the right one.

    Future surgery is scheduled? It is? When? So if your gonna flat out call me flat out wrong then I guess I'm gonna ask you to prove this. Show me the article that says he is scheduled to get surgery & I'll freely admit I'm wrong on this part of the issue.
    All right, I can't find "scheduled." But the IS had several articles saying he would need surgery this summer. I'm trying to find reprints in other places, since the Star's online archive is atrocious.

    As to saying he wanted to play. Well, again, back this up. Show me the quote & I'll take it back. I've never seen it.
    This one I can do: http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/bender_050103.html

  25. #25
    Member skyfire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from an odd season....

    rofl magicrat

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