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Thread: Pep fired

  1. #51
    THE WITCH IS DEAD!!! Coopdog23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    I just think this was un-professional by Pagano. In the middle of the season is a little childish to me. I understand our offense is horrible but still, wait til after the season.
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  2. #52
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    I don't get some people. They can't differentiate playcalling and play selection versus execution. Just because the play isn't executed properly doesn't mean it was the right play or set of plays to begin with. This is the only way people can defend Pep, because they can't tell the difference. They just think "Luck threw it bad, how is that Pep's fault."

    To put in Pacer's parlance, it's like saying "Troy Murphy continues to jack up and miss three pointers, how is that Jim O'Brien's fault? And now we replace him with this Frank Vogel scrub nobody? We're a train wreck."

    And before you say it, yes Pep has as much influence on the offense as an OC as JOB had as a head coach; the two sports are actually different, if you can believe it.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 11-04-2015 at 11:59 AM.
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  4. #53

    Default Re: Pep fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    I just think this was un-professional by Pagano. In the middle of the season is a little childish to me. I understand our offense is horrible but still, wait til after the season.
    Not sure this was Chuck's call. Pretty sure it came from Jimmy. Or Grigson (via Jimmy).

  5. #54
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Not sure this was Chuck's call. Pretty sure it came from Jimmy. Or Grigson (via Jimmy).
    Not only that, but it had to be done, not later, but now. It had been a long-running problem.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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  7. #55
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I'm definitely not advocating moving Luck in any way, as that's unwarranted and completely unrealistic. I doubt Irsay would ever let Luck go without doing whatever he could to put him in a place to succeed. Reprimanding Luck in any way wasn't my point.

    The colts were 1st in the NFL in passing, and 6th in scoring just last year with Pep as the OC. But many said that was because of Andrew Luck's brilliance, and in spite of Pep. But now that the Colts offense is playing poorly, it's mostly because of Pep's playcalling as opposed to Luck's play?

    Hoosierguy made my point for me however:



    There may have been some issues with playcalling, but Luck is the one throwing the ball. He's the one throwing into coverage, he is the one over throwing wide open receivers, and he's the one not utilizing his legs more effectively. Those things have nothing to do with the playcalling, and changing an offensive coordinator mid season won't change that.

    If the offense sees any bump in production following this move, it'll be due to Andrew Luck being accurate and smart with the football. Not because some new offensive gameplan is going to miraculously make things run more efficiently.
    It all depends on how much of an issue you see with the playcalling versus the OL's ability to block and give Luck a clean pocket for the throws (and the amounts of passes called for in the first place). They are doing so little of the short, quick stuff that it's just making things worse and making the line look even worse. So when you're rushing throws and not comfortable in the pocket you also miss receivers, overthrow balls, don't properly scan the field, etc... Then add in an injury. Even if the injury (or injuries) have healed, there's a psychological effect to consider as well when the protection just doesn't hold up long enough for the plays to develop and now you have memories of that pain in your head too.
    Call a different game, get the ball out quicker, take some heat off the line, give the QB some confidence, give the OL some confidence and then see how things look.

    As far as the much maligned defense, I still don't think they are as bad as the statistics might say on first glance because they have to be on the field an awful lot when the offense is 3 and out or turning the ball over.

    3 low percentage long balls isn't the way to sustain a drive. Or one 3 yard run and 2 low percentage long balls.

    If that's on Luck changing the calls then the OC (HC and QB coach too) needs to do some coaching.... as well as a rethink of what tools (plays) they are giving him within the offense anyway.
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

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  8. #56
    " A,Β,..M,N,L,O,P,...F" Johanvil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    Absolving Luck of any blame this season is hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. I guess the picks vs the Saints, @Titans and most recently @Panthers for example it was down to play calling...

    Of course he is ailing, he won't admit it but he is. Nobody can blame him if he doesn't put the right zip on his throws to his receivers but do so when he can't see his open receivers (thing that has been a recurrence this year), when he refuses to throw it out of bounds and when he has consistently thrown to double coverage and got picked off. I mean that almost to be INT from Kuechly in the end zone is a blatant example of bad decision making.

    Pep should have been removed some time ago (we don't really have to re-visit the long developing routes of his, lack of quick slants etc.), and the same should happen to Grigson and Pagano in the off season. He has the lion's share of the blame with Grigson for the offense and then comes Luck as the least responsible.

    Andrew's insane quality papered over the cracks in the past and now that he's been hurt and he is off just completed a shitstorm.
    Last edited by Johanvil; 11-04-2015 at 01:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Pep fired

    You know what helps an ailing QB? Better play calling.

    Pep wasn't the issue, he just was the multiplier. They aren't going to get rid of Luck, so that leaves one option left.
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  11. #58

    Default Re: Pep fired

    Plus let's forget that Luck is playing hurt because grigsons line sucks
    Last edited by Mad-Mad-Mario; 11-04-2015 at 08:22 PM.

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  13. #59
    let's do better Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    I don't necessarily disagree with it but I think the timing is kinda dumb. We're on a short week and the best D in the league is coming to town, Luck looks like he has no damn idea what he's doing half the time so why add to the confusion with the bye week coming after Denver y'know?

    On the other hand, this season sucks so get the move over and done with and go win 7 games and get a home playoff game I guess.

    I just don't really think this move's gonna matter much. And we we'd been running short stuff btw, Luck just didn't throw it to em.

  14. #60
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I don't get some people. They can't differentiate playcalling and play selection versus execution. Just because the play isn't executed properly doesn't mean it was the right play or set of plays to begin with. This is the only way people can defend Pep, because they can't tell the difference. They just think "Luck threw it bad, how is that Pep's fault."
    I think most people get that point just fine. Besides, I don't see ANYONE defending Pep Hamilton. He is a questionable play caller in terms of setting things up. He lacks imagination or any original creativity. But that's not the point.

    The very simple point is that no matter what plays are being called - f you have an "elite" QB, they aren't supposed to make poor decisions on such a consistent basis.

    If you want to place blame for the offensive philosophy - blame Pep.

    If you want to place blame for the underutilization of our TE's and RB's - a lot of that is on Pep and his play calling as well.

    But poor playcalling doesn't excuse throws into double coverage or inaccurate throws to open receivers. Poor playcalling doesn't excuse locking onto one specific receiver. I don't know of any NFL offense that ONLY has receivers running deep routes EVERY play. Yet, it seems that those are the receivers Luck chooses to target most of the time. That last INT - he had the RB open. He typically can dump the ball off, but chooses to throw into coverage. (The Panthers routinely dropped should be INT's, including one that could've ended the game in the 4th). Those poor decisions that lead to turnovers aren't on the OC, it's on the guy throwing the ball.

    I understand the whole "they aren't putting Luck in a position to succeed" narrative. But at some point, he's got to receive at least SOME of the blame for poor decision making. Poor playcalling be damned
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 11-04-2015 at 02:28 PM.

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  16. #61
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    I see Luck making bad decisions because he knows if he doesn't make something happen, they're gonna have short offensive possessions.

    Not deflecting blame away from Luck, he's still making crappy reads and forcing the issue, but it's not a guy who's just missing receivers on the other side of the field trying to fit the ball to one particular player or anything like that. (although he does have a tendency to stare down a receiver now and again)

    I think, and will continue to think until proven without a doubt otherwise, that we're seeing a collection of two major things, 1) offensive line is absolutely horrible and 2) play calling has been absolutely horrible. I think when you combine those two issues together, you find your QB in a position where he has to force things instead of having confidence he'll get another chance a few plays later.

    We've been complaining about how far downfield the plays have been going for a couple seasons now, and complaining about the lack of check downs. Sure that could be on Luck, but I think he's too smart to be so clueless that he has other options. Which makes me believe that Pep has tried being overly aggressive when he calls passing plays, and it's more of design rather than Luck not understanding what's needed.

    I think the proof is the difference in the play calling when Hasselbeck played. I thought Pep's play calling took into account the QBs physical limitations/line limitations, and tried getting into positions to succeed. It just is confusing to see the night and day difference in how the Colts looked/plays that were ran between the two QBs.
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  18. #62
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    I really do think a lot of people need to take a step back and really think about what we have with Luck, me included. We had a decade+ of one of the 2 or 3 best QBs ever, a down year, and then got The Next One. Except he really doesn't seem to be, certainly not this year.

    Peyton made massive, gaping, talent holes if not disappear at least not matter. Luck can't do that. No one wants to talk about it but Luck's looking a helluva lot more like Jay Cutler and Matt Stafford than he is anything approaching Peyton.

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    Default Re: Pep fired

    Got a notification on my phone from BR (Bleacher Report) sources (that may well be BS sources), that Chudzinski is being evaluated as a potential new head coach.

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    Default Re: Pep fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    I really do think a lot of people need to take a step back and really think about what we have with Luck, me included. We had a decade+ of one of the 2 or 3 best QBs ever, a down year, and then got The Next One. Except he really doesn't seem to be, certainly not this year.

    Peyton made massive, gaping, talent holes if not disappear at least not matter. Luck can't do that. No one wants to talk about it but Luck's looking a helluva lot more like Jay Cutler and Matt Stafford than he is anything approaching Peyton.
    But Peyton wasn't consistently the Peyton that we all cherish until year 6 of his career. Like Luck, he had a great start to his career and then hit a rut in year 4. He improved in year 5 under Dungy, but we still got smoked 41-0 in the playoffs. It wasn't until year 6 that he consistently became the Peyton that everyone remembers so fondly.

    Look, I don't think that Luck is going to go down as being as great of a quarterback as Manning because that would mean that he would have to be like a top 2 all time quarterback. Nevertheless, he had us in the AFCCG as a third year starter, whereas Peyton didn't even win a playoff game until year 6. It's not uncommon for good quarterbacks to hit a rut early in their career. Also, keep in mind that Peyton had Tom Moore for his entire career, in addition to superior receiving options. Luck had Wayne to start with, but he's long gone. Also, I don't know if TY is ever going to quite live up to expectations. Manning OTOH had an all-world Marvin Harrison with him for the first 9 years of his career, Edgerrin James, Wayne for a while, Saturday, and Tarik Glenn blocking his blind side for 9 years.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 11-04-2015 at 03:28 PM.

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  22. #65
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    No one is saying Luck is playing great, so you can also move on from that point. This is a Pep thread, not a Luck Sucks thread. Of course Luck needs to pick it up. But that said, he's injured, which can certainly make a lot of his throws look like bad decisions, because he can't place the ball where is mind knows he needs to put it. A lot of his throws are floating and behind. He can't put as much on the ball as usual. You can see where he *intended* to put it, but it got nowhere near. I mostly think he's just injured whereas Pep was the one making most of the bad decisions.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 11-04-2015 at 03:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    Got a notification on my phone from BR (Bleacher Report) sources (that may well be BS sources), that Chudzinski is being evaluated as a potential new head coach.
    Irsay would no longer be fit to own an NFL team if he gave the coaching job to Chudzinski.

    The Colts have prestige, history, money, Andrew Luck, and a virtually guaranteed playoff spot in the AFC South. If Irsay doesn't leverage that into a top-notch head coaching hire, then Irsay is no longer fit to own the team.

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  25. #67
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    No one knows what Luck can throw better than Luck, whatever his physical status is

    He still keeps making the throws. Go watch the Carolina and NO tape of guys coming outta the backfield in the flat, open and signaling for it, and Luck either not even looking at them (Carolina) or making some early attempts and missing horribly (NO). No one is hyping up Pep, no one is saying Luck sucks, get over this one or the other narrative ********. But it's a systemic failure that I really think is more rooted in Luck, not Pep, not being able to adapt.

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  27. #68
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    So you're absolving Pep and putting most of this on Luck.
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    not absolving but yeah, I think most of it's on Luck

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    Default Re: Pep fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Irsay would no longer be fit to own an NFL team if he gave the coaching job to Chudzinski.

    The Colts have prestige, history, money, Andrew Luck, and a virtually guaranteed playoff spot in the AFC South. If Irsay doesn't leverage that into a top-notch head coaching hire, then Irsay is no longer fit to own the team.

    Agreed. Cowherd said today that there are even rumors that current NFL head coaches would be willing to quit their current jobs and slide over to Indy because of the weak division and the universal thought that despite his slump, Luck is the next great QB on the horizon.

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  31. #71
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    No one is saying Luck is playing great, so you can also move on from that point..
    No, but you don't seem to put any of what's going on to Luck and his poor play outside "he needs to pick it up". Through 6 games - he has the lowest QB rating in the league right now. If he's elite, we should hold him to that standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    This is a Pep thread, not a Luck Sucks thread
    I'm not saying "Luck sucks", nor have I said that. Ever. I'm simply saying that he's playing poorly, and has been playing poorly for quite some time now. He is one of the main reasons that this team is struggling. If this were happening to any other QB, this wouldn't be a conversation, yet it's different when it comes to Luck. I was pointing out his continual struggles because I think it's what led to Pep getting fired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    ut that said, he's injured, which can certainly make a lot of his throws look like bad decisions, because he can't place the ball where is mind knows he needs to put it. A lot of his throws are floating and behind. He can't put as much on the ball as usual. You can see where he *intended* to put it, but it got nowhere near. I mostly think he's just injured whereas Pep was the one making most of the bad decisions.
    Luck has been playing this way since December of last season. He finished last season with similar numbers that he's putting up now

    Dec - 53.6%, 6TD, 5 INT, 71.1 Rating
    Playoffs - 58.3%, 3TD, 4INT, 71.8 Rating.

    So unless he's been inured since December of last season, I don't see how that's an excuse and not a trend of play.

    Edit: Again, I don't think Luck sucks. I think he's overrated, but I think he's quite talented. I just don't believe his issues lie within the play calling as much as they lie within his decision making and accuracy right now.

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  33. #72
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    I most certainly have called out Luck. This is a Pep thread. He was fired because he didn't do his job. Not because Luck didn't do his.
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  34. #73
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    This entire offense has sucked this year, not just Luck. The line has been a soap opera. The receivers can't get open. The running backs have self-induced fumbles. The person who coordinates all this wasn't getting the job done. Even when this offense experienced periods of success in the past, it felt throttled, and it was after stretches of many games of not performing to level, and taking way too long to adjust. We don't utilize player's strengths. We never achieved any sort of balance or consistency.
    This all was what Pep was responsible for. Often times it felt like we only experienced success when we abandoned Pep's gameplan and let Luck do his thing, usually after being down multiple scores.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 11-04-2015 at 04:52 PM.
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  36. #74
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    The complaints this year about the offense, have been the same (not all) complaints about the Colts offense last year, and the year before, and the year before, and the year before that, and the year before that.

    "But he's only been with the Colts for 4 years....."

    Yeah, the same complaints people had about Pep Hamilton are the SAME EXACT complaints people had about him when he was with Luck at Stanford. When the same complaints, not just the crappy throws or INTS, but the scheme complaints have followed the same guy for 7 years, I think it's pretty safe to assume it falls on his shoulders.

    The main complaint about Pep is, and has been, he doesn't maximize strengths with his play calling.

    We all know INTs mainly fall on the QB. But the issues go far beyond bad throws and turnovers.
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  38. #75
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    Default Re: Pep fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    This entire offense has sucked this year, not just Luck. The line has been a soap opera. The receivers can't get open. The running backs have self-induced fumbles. The person who coordinates all this wasn't getting the job done. Even when this offense experienced periods of success in the past, it felt throttled, and it was after stretches of many games of not performing to level, and taking way too long to adjust. We don't utilize player's strengths. We never achieved any sort of balance or consistency.
    This all was what Pep was responsible for. Often times it felt like we only experienced success when we abandoned Pep's gameplan and let Luck do his thing, usually after being down multiple scores.
    Did Pep stop calling the game once the team was down? No, he was the one calling the plays when the team would make their dramatic comeback, just as he was the one calling them when they got down to begin with. That's just another cop out.

    I completely agree that Pep was inconsistent with his play calling and ability to maximize the talent of his skill players.

    If Luck continues to play as he has, then the firing of Pep won't improve or change a thing -- which is exactly what the firing is supposed to garner in the first place.

    I'd predict the typical 2ish game boost to the offense whenever a coach is fired, but after that I'd assume the offense and QB would return to the standard. The only way that doesn't happen is if the bad decisions and inaccurate throws are minimized.

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