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More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

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  • #1

    More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

    http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2015/09/16/pacers-links-did-larry-bird-go-too-far/32529403/

    Did Larry Bird go too far in reshaping the Indiana Pacers' roster this offseason? Paul George on the cover of a new NBA2K16 app? Roy Hibbert already a star off the court in Los Angeles? The latest Pacers links:
    • Matt Moore of CBS Sports writes that while it's admirable that the Pacers are trying to adapt to a changing NBA in terms of style of play, Larry Bird went too far:
    "I'm all for staying ahead of the curve, and adapting to the new realities of the league. But that's if you're a team with no real future, not a team that was so close to a title it hurts, and the team that beat you no longer exists in that form.
    "Larry Bird went to extremes this offseason. Maybe David West was always gone, and maybe if that hadn't happened, he would have reconsidered trading Roy Hibbert. To go to the lengths he did to reshape this team, as quickly as he did, looks pretty extreme, though. Still, the damage is done and the Pacers are going to this smallball approach no matter what."

    Moore also considered whether Paul George will be able to be the same George he was in his breakout 2013-14 season, given his return from a traumatic leg injury:
    "Still, after an injury as traumatic as George's, there's a concern of what exactly his top level can be. The Pacers need him to be 2014 Paul George -- the MVP candidate, dynamic playmaker and scoring machine. That may simply not be possible for another year. And that's the other complication. This is in many ways expected to be a lost season as the Pacers try and transition to whatever new version Bird, Donnie Walsh and Kevin Pritchard envision."

    • Mike Bresnahan of the Los Angeles Times writes that former Pacers center Roy Hibbert, now with the Lakers, is adjusting to life in Los Angeles and his expected role with his new team:
    "Larry King saw Hibbert dining and brought him to meet a handful of guests at a nearby table, where pictures were taken with the 7-foot-2 center.
    "Sylvester Stallone approached Hibbert's table at a different eatery and wished him well, a particular thrill for Hibbert because of an interest in martial arts.
    "'People really love the Lakers out here. I walk down the street now and get stopped four or five times, taking pictures,' he said.
    "He says it with the same wonderment of someone discovering life beyond Earth. Or in his case, Middle America.
    "...'I saw how the trend was going with big guys in the NBA with how Golden State won,' he said. 'I started changing a little bit.'
    "He's not becoming a three-point wizard, a stretch center if you will. He hasn't worked on that aspect of his game. Just trying to be leaner and faster, even though the Lakers swear they don't care about getting any offense out of him."

    Hibbert also told the L.A. Times about his invitation of Paul George to his Indiana home before moving to the West Coast:
    "Before Hibbert moved out of his Indiana home last week, he invited Paul George to come over one last time, hiring a barber to give the former Pacers teammates haircuts in the barber-shop chair in Hibbert's man cave.
    "'I don't harbor any resentment. I don't want to see those guys do badly,' Hibbert said.

    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-...-for-smallball


    It's a season of change for the Indiana Pacers. Gone are David West and Roy Hibbert, pillars of the Eastern Conference contender who pushed LeBron's Heat in 2013 and led the league for much of 2014 before their epic collapse. Instead, Larry Bird has pivoted and opted to aim for a fast-moving, versatile team ... except he doesn't quite have the personnel yet. After years of a dominant defense defined by their interior strength, the team traded Hibbert after West departed for San Antonio and tried to improve their offensive woes with the addition of Monta Ellis.
    Can this smallball approach work in year one? Can Frank Vogel piece together a playoff team in the weak East as he nearly did last year despite Paul George missing most of the year? What's the real identity of this team now? Lot of questions for a team that was within range of the Finals only 15 months ago.
    Key losses: David West (free agency, Spurs), Roy Hibbert (trade, Lakers), C.J. Watson (free agency, Magic), Luis Scola (free agency, Raptors), Chris Copeland (free agency, Bucks)
    Key additions: Monta Ellis (free agency), Myles Turner (draft), Jordan Hill (free agency), Joseph Young (draft), Chase Budinger (trade), Rodney Stuckey (re-signed)
    ***
    Can the Pacers pull off this transition to smallball? I'm all for staying ahead of the curve, and adapting to the new realities of the league. But that's if you're a team with no real future, not a team that was so close to a title it hurts, and the team that beat you no longer exists in that form.
    Larry Bird went to extremes this offseason. Maybe David West was always gone, and maybe if that hadn't happened, he would have reconsidered trading Roy Hibbert. To go to the lengths he did to reshape this team, as quickly as he did, looks pretty extreme, though. Still, the damage is done and the Pacers are going to this smallball approach no matter what.
    The biggest change will see Paul George move to smallball four, at least part of the time. It's an idea that George isn't exactly thrilled about, and that Bird says just isn't that big of a deal. In 2014, George posted up just five percent of the time. Obviously, George will be used as a stretch four as the Pacers look to go four or five out. But there's just no real evidence to know how George will function as a rebounder, defending true bigs or even as a primary screener.
    Bird has said the move is designed with the intent of taking the stress off George's injured leg by not making him chase small forwards. The problem, of course, is that it doesn't cover the issue of him having to defend bigger, stronger players, and to attack them on the glass. There's a tradeoff.
    There's also the question of whether the offensive upgrades with Ellis will be enough to lift the offense. Frank Vogel's teams have been sound and disciplined, but woefully inefficient offensively. Can this new shift to faster, smaller basketball lead to the improved offense the Pacers want? How much progress can they make in a year?
    Is Paul George ready? George is clearly the biggest key to Indiana's season. He managed to return for a handful of games at the end of last season, but skipped the Team USA minicamp this summer. There's no reason to think he'll be impacted during camp or the start of the season.
    Still, after an injury as traumatic as George's, there's a concern of what exactly his top level can be. The Pacers need him to be 2014 Paul George -- the MVP candidate, dynamic playmaker and scoring machine. That may simply not be possible for another year. And that's the other complication. This is in many ways expected to be a lost season as the Pacers try and transition to whatever new version Bird, Donnie Walsh and Kevin Pritchard envision. Whatever that future entails, George features prominently.
    So the focus can't just be on whatever they can get with George now, but the long-term hope of getting him back at 100 percent. (It's easy to forget George is still just 25.) If that means taking it slow with George's return to full-time status, so be it. If that means more short-term pain as the Pacers struggle without their best player, that's what happens. The Pacers have a plan and that's more important.
    Still, how George is able to recover this season will tell a lot about the Pacers' season and their future.
    How much will Indiana struggle on the boards? The Pacers finished first, third and sixth in the past three seasons in rebound percentage. However, after losing Hibbert they lost a big component of that success. Hibbert's individual rebounding numbers were the subject of scorn, but Hibbert's size also demanded attention, which opened up opportunities for his teammates. Throw in West's departure and the way the Pacers elected not to replace them with size, and all of a sudden Indy's very small.
    The center rotation is essentially Jordan Hill, rookie Myles Turner, Ian Mahinmi, Lavoy Allen,Shayne Whittington and Rakeem Christmas. There's just no telling how moving to this smallball rotation will hurt the Pacers on the glass. There's a balance to these things: better on the glass, worse on offense and vice versa. Yet in the East, and especially in the big-heavy Central Division (the Cavs, Bulls, Bucks and Pistons all have a lot of size in their rosters), Indiana could hurt badly.
    Still, a more 3-point-focused attack could lead to longer offensive rebounds and their athletic wings could pick up some of that slack. Meanwhile, if Turner has a breakout rookie season, if the up-and-down pace allows Hill to be effective while keeping bigger centers off the court, there's some hope Indiana can figure out how to get by.
    The odds of them returning to a top-five spot in rebound percentage, however, remain low. They purposefully gave up size and rebounding advantage. They'll just hope the cost doesn't outweigh the offensive benefits.
    Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

    http://www.si.com/nba/2015/09/15/nba...s-jimmy-butler

    Indiana Pacers

    Best move: Drafting a potential franchise big man in Myles Turner at No. 11.
    Worst move: Angering David West to the point that he gave up millions of dollars to race out of town.
    Analysis: There’s a difference between pivoting and careening when it comes to roster-building, and Pacers president Larry Bird might have crossed over to the wrong side of the line this summer. While some might view Indiana’s off-season as a premature blow-up, given Paul George’s return and the Pacers’ back-to-back trips to the Eastern Conference finals in 2013 and 2014, it’s not quite that simple. The core of those teams took a hit last summer when Lance Stephenson departed, Roy Hibbert’s defensive impact diminished significantly last season, and David West turned 35 this summer. Chasing the ghosts of those teams was a good recipe for disappointment.

    What Bird came up with, however, just isn’t all that enticing in the immediate future.Hibbert was strongly encouraged to opt out of his contract and then dumped to theLakers for next-to-nothing. West, upset in part with the treatment of Hibbert and Indiana’s dimming outlook, surprisingly turned down a $12.6 million option to chase a title with the Spurs on a minimum deal. Crafty veteran Luis Scola bailed for theRaptors. Those largely uncompensated departures left the Pacers with big frontcourtholes that will require coach Frank Vogel to give huge minutes to replaceable players (Ian Mahinmi, Jordan Hill, Lavoy Allen) and untested rookies (Myles Turner andRakeem Christmas), or to embrace smaller lineups that shift George up from the three to the four. Neither approach is totally desirable, and George’s initial reluctance to embrace life as a small ball power forward only exacerbates the positional balance concerns.
    NBA
    VideoSI.com's Top 100 NBA Players of 2016

    by Ben Golliver and Rob Mahoney




    Indiana’s big addition was Monta Ellis, a quality playmaker with defensive deficiencies who arrives on a four-year, $44 million contract. That price is alright, not fantastic, and it’s time to start wondering when the burden of playing the most minutes in the NBA since the start of the 2010–11 season will catch up to him. Fit-wise, it looks like a decent move: Ellis’s off-the-dribble game should work well in Indiana’s spread lineups, and the presence of George Hill andRodney Stuckey should ensure Vogel doesn’t need to over-rely on him. Still, his entertainment value has generally outpaced his impact on winning in recent years, and his presence will strain Indiana’s interior defense. Besides Ellis, the Pacers’ other veteran additions, Hill and Chase Budinger, are forgettable. If there’s anyone to truly get excited about it is Turner, a versatile 6'11" center who projects as a quality interior defender and an inside/outside scorer. However, asking for ready-made production from any teenage big man is simply asking too much. Phasing out Hibbert in favor of Turner over multiple seasons would have made for a smoother transition, and the Pacers will undoubtedly take some lumps if and when they decide to give real run to the Texas product.
    Like George, who returned to the court for just 91 minutes last season following a devastating leg injury, the new-look Pacers are an unknown quantity entering the 2015–16 season. The summer produced a clear shift in philosophy, but it didn’t quite feature the necessary corresponding talent overhaul. If this new cast shapes up into a winning product, Vogel should be at the top of the Coach of the Year conversation. But, if things don’t go so well, Bird should be the first to shoulder the blame.
    Grade: C
    Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

      Bird did what had to be done. There were too many under-performing players on the Pacers, and Larry cut bait. Just like any business, if you have employees that aren't getting the job done, you look for better alternatives.
      Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

        SI grades so far

        Southeast
        A- Heat
        B Wizards
        C+ Hornets
        B- Magic



        Central

        Incomplete Cavs
        B Bulls
        B+ Bucks
        C- Pistons
        C Pacers
        Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

          Originally posted by Pacergeek View Post
          Bird did what had to be done. There were too many under-performing players on the Pacers, and Larry cut bait. Just like any business, if you have employees that aren't getting the job done, you look for better alternatives.
          Being an actual businessman I can tell you that you typically only do that when you can upgrade. We upgraded our back court at the expense of severely downgrading our front court. The nba is a little different in the way teams have to take a step back sometimes but we didn't have to take this big of a step back in our front court. Signing Ellis made some sense but the combination of players that we spent the money from the Hibbert move on made no sense at all and left our roster very unbalanced.
          Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

            Originally posted by Pacerized View Post
            Being an actual businessman I can tell you that you typically only do that when you can upgrade. We upgraded our back court at the expense of severely downgrading our front court. The nba is a little different in the way teams have to take a step back sometimes but we didn't have to take this big of a step back in our front court. Signing Ellis made some sense but the combination of players that we spent the money from the Hibbert move on made no sense at all and left our roster very unbalanced.
            We upgraded our front court as well. Turner will be better than Hibbert. In two years from now, when Turner is an all-star candidate, none of us will be thinking that we somehow downgraded at center from drafting Turner
            Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

              also being an actual business, man, stop applying that dumb **** to sports franchises

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

                Originally posted by Pacergeek View Post
                We upgraded our front court as well. Turner will be better than Hibbert. In two years from now, when Turner is an all-star candidate, none of us will be thinking that we somehow downgraded at center from drafting Turner

                Maybe, just maybe 2 years from now in his third season if we find a starting caliber PF then we will have an upgraded front court.
                For this season Turner is a big step backwards from Hibbert and our overall front court is very much a downgrade.
                Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

                  Originally posted by Pacerized View Post
                  For this season Turner is a big step backwards from Hibbert and our overall front court is very much a downgrade.

                  It's hard to "downgrade" from something that was as horrible as our front court was last year, especially when you consider that the contracts of West and Hibbert were an absolute albatross on the franchise in relation to their 2014-15 production.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

                    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-...-for-smallball

                    The audio feed is also worth a listen.
                    Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

                      Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                      It's hard to "downgrade" from something that was as horrible as our front court was last year, especially when you consider that the contracts of West and Hibbert were an absolute albatross on the franchise in relation to their 2014-15 production.
                      Let's see how our defense is this year. My guess is it will be a huge downgrade even with Paul returning and it could have been better this year due to that.
                      Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

                        Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                        It's hard to "downgrade" from something that was as horrible as our front court was last year, especially when you consider that the contracts of West and Hibbert were an absolute albatross on the franchise in relation to their 2014-15 production.
                        And yet, they managed to do it.
                        “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

                          Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                          And yet, they managed to do it.
                          We'll see. We sucked in the W-L column with Hibbert playing 76 games and West playing 66. As a duo, they were stale and predictable while weighing us down with their massive salaries.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

                            Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                            It's hard to "downgrade" from something that was as horrible as our front court was last year, especially when you consider that the contracts of West and Hibbert were an absolute albatross on the franchise in relation to their 2014-15 production.
                            I think the downgrade at defense in our front court is a given. I think our overall offense will be a little better this year but it's still very likely that even our offense won't be as good from our front court rotation. We managed to get 11.7 from West, 10.6 from Hibbert, 9.4 from Scola, 5 from Lavoy and 4.3 from Ian. I'm not sure if we'll get that much from Ian, Hill, Turner, Lavoy and Whittington this year.
                            Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

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                            • #15
                              Re: More Pacers articles Did Bird go too far?

                              I think the defensive downgrade will have a bigger impact than the offensive upgrade.

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