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Thread: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    First off ReggieMiller8325 take a bow. None of us had the faith you did when it came to this tough stretch of games & I would venture to say that if we were asked which two games we would win & which two we would lose I assure you nobody would have said we would beat Detroit & San Antonio back to back. You had the faith, so keep the fires burning.

    I don't know where else to start but at Dale Davis. He ruled that game & proved to me that he is more than equal to the task of playing vs. the Wallace's. Not only did he control the boards but he controlled the paint. He adjusted more shots than I can remember the # of during that game because of his shot blocking. He rendered Prince pretty much impotent. However being the biggest Dale Davis fan on the board I understand that I may be making to much of his game. So I'll try & tone it down. In reality he was only important to the game if you count winning. There is that better

    I'll just end my segment about Dale with the following

    I'll move on.

    Let's talk about Ben Wallace. Look I still give the guy all the credit in the world for being a tough player & the fact that Dale Davis made him insignificant last night may just have been a fluke (Hardly the case but I'm willing to bend here) I have found something out about Ben that I really didn't know from the past.

    I used to compare him to Dale Davis all of the time but after the games I've seen him play this season I think I am beginning to believe that I really should have been comparing him to Jermaine O'neal. No, obviously not on the offensive end & let's be honest he's better than J.O. at defense.

    No, Ben & J.O. share one other trait that I didn't really understand until just this last game. They both are mentally weak when they are playing vs. physical players & the game is not going their way. Was Scot Pollard dirty? He did put the elbow out there & let's just go ahead & say he did it on purpose, hell let's just let some of the Pistons fans have their way & say he was dirty. So what? Detroit was far from out of the game at that moment & Ben could easily have been given a "T" (instead Pollard got it) or if it had been another player instead of Scot, Ben might have done something & been tossed. This is food for thought for future games because if there was ever a player that we might want to start playing a little more physical it might be Ben. I'm not calling him a punk, but I'm saying he might be mentally weaker than I thought he was.

    For that matter Scot Pollard should recieve a contract extension just for his actions last night alone. Not backing down from Ben was great, then standing there saying "What?" "What?" was even better. But the icing on the cake was when he sunk the free throw & then gave the toodle ooh wave to the ball had me to where I was unable to intake oxygen. Also he burped at the freethrow line, which also was pretty funny. Not only was he funny but what might have been missed in all of this was that he used his large frame to box out Wallace.

    Foster was great again as well. I loved his offensive aggresiveness because vs. the Pistons he has to be willing to do that.

    Croshere was perfect at attacking the rim as well. I don't know how many boards he had but I think he was pretty good on the boards as well.

    What more can you say about Anthony Johnson? The guy is stepping up big time & right now if Jamaal came back tomorrow I don't know that I would want to bench A.J. the first game just because the guy has played so well that I think he deserves his place for a game or two. Don't get me wrong Jamaal starts ultimately but to just bench him the first day would be wrong.

    Fred & Reggie both were great.

    Jackson pushed it a little to much but by the second half he did hit a couple of big shots, so I guess since we won it's ok. Besides, he was playing 1 on 22,005 on a few occasions.

    Ultimately this game all goes back to Dale, Reggie & Austin. Some of us said all along that the 00 team should never have been seperated & we were right.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    No, Ben & J.O. share one other trait that I didn't really understand until just this last game. They both are mentally weak when they are playing vs. physical players & the game is not going their way. Was Scot Pollard dirty? He did put the elbow out there & let's just go ahead & say he did it on purpose, hell let's just let all the Pistons fans have their way & say he was dirty. So what? Detroit was far from out of the game at that moment & Ben could easily have been given a "T" (instead Pollard got it) or if it had been another player instead of Scot, Ben might have done something & been tossed. This is food for thought for future games because if there was ever a player that we might want to start playing a little more physical it might be Ben. I'm not calling him a punk, but I'm saying he might be mentally weaker than I thought he was.
    I just want to comment on the "hell let's just let all the Pistons fans have their way & say he was dirty" statement. I agree with the general point of the paragraph, but the bolded statement was over the top. I didn't think that play was dirty was at all, so not ALL Piston fans think it was dirty. I'm just disappointed you said it. You're a better poster than that.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    I don't recall ever calling it "dirty" either......a lot of other things, yes. But not dirty.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Fantastic post, Peck. I've kept my silence through most of this, sitting back and enjoying the basketball and not really enjoying the arguing. What can you do?

    Once again, you've risen above it all and given us some great reading.

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    Mjolnir Diamond Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    I don't recall ever calling it "dirty" either......a lot of other things, yes. But not dirty.
    "Dirty", "Intentional elbow to the throat"

    Almost synonyms.

    Clearly Big Ben does not have the ultra tough personality that has been associated with him. I hate to keep using Dale references, but in terms of on court toughness Ben Wallace is no Dale Davis.

    Perhaps Ben just gets this persona since he plays in a time of soft play and frail Bender like players.

    Not the age of giants that Dale played in.

    Buck is right, Rasheed really needs to step up his Offensive game to help the Pistons. It might have helped them tonight, but maybe not. As soon as he started scoring at will over Croshere, Carlisle put Dale on him. Sheed could only seem to shoot fadeaways on Dale.

    I loved the performance tonight, however I still will not believe we can beat them in a series. Rip will be back. Jackson can do a decent job on either Prince or Rip but not both and Reggie can't guard either.

    But can either guard Reggie.

    Great win tonight though, hopefully the "events" that seem to take place in New Fallujah, Michigan when the Pacers visit will not continue into next year.

    God help everyone in that building if we meet in the playoffs.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Peck,

    Awesome post and I don't think your exagerrating on Dale. He was stellar tonight (just got done watching the game) against Detroit! Our defense has really taken a step up and his screening ability on offense is terrific!!

    As for Ben...have to agree....That is twice now in two games where we pounded their ***, he's gone looking to fight!! What a poor loser....proves my points about him! Was he thinking he could get the rest of our team suspended?!? LOL

    I can't remember if you mentioned Croshere, BUT HE played an awesome game as well. Also have to give props to AJ. I never thought I'd say that he is playing awesome, but I will tonight. Hell, the whole team played well....those screens for Freddie in the 2nd half were beautiful and we battled the whole game!! Cheers!!

    We just clobbered Detroit without 3 of our starting 5 including our only 2 All stars and number 1 point guard!!

    Water

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Quote Originally Posted by shags
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    I just want to comment on the "hell let's just let all the Pistons fans have their way & say he was dirty" statement. I agree with the general point of the paragraph, but the bolded statement was over the top. I didn't think that play was dirty was at all, so not ALL Piston fans think it was dirty. I'm just disappointed you said it. You're a better poster than that.

    Your are absolutely correct. I apologize for my generalization & I have gone back & edited the aformentioned error.

    I hate it when all Pacers fans get lumped into the Artest bandwagon so I should make certain that I don't do the same thing to Piston fans. I read in another thread that you didn't think it was dirty, so I stand corrected.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    I don't recall ever calling it "dirty" either......a lot of other things, yes. But not dirty.
    Sorry, you are correct you did not.

    I thought the tone you were using implied you thought it was dirty, but you never said that. I guess I should not try & read "tone" on the internet.

    Either way the series was split for the season & I think in the long run this game might have helped both teams in a crazy way.

    I bet you guys wake up the rest of the season & in all honesty if we do meet in the playoffs this game will probably make it so the your guys don't overlook us & take us for granted.

    Don't get me wrong, your still the champs. but with Dale on board the main things that scared me about the Pistons don't scare me anymore. I still worry, but I'm not scared.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Wow, we looked like a real playoff team tonight. Props to AJ,Dale everyone and even the big 3 from Gill. Near the end when all the pacers were turned around when the freethrows were being shot, I was thinking here we go again, another no finish in Detroit. Pollard was funny when Ben got in his face he was saying "WHAT" "WHAT".... classic moment. Glad we won. This BUDS for you Pacers.

    Kick *** in Chicago Saturday night. D.Davis owns the lane when he's in there. Peck you will remember me from the old Pacers forum I was BBSG (bleed blue / sweat gold)

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    OH MY GOD!!!!!

    Bleed Blue/Sweat Gold!!!!!!!

    No F'n way. My God man what the hell ever happened to you? You just up & left us for years.

    Man, that is a name that I thought I would never hear again.

    Funny thing is that I used to think that Uncle Buck was BB/SG way back in the day. It was only later when I met him did I realize it wasn't you.

    Great to have you back.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Quote Originally Posted by aceace
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    Wow, we looked like a real playoff team tonight. Props to AJ,Dale everyone and even the big 3 from Gill. Near the end when all the pacers were turned around when the freethrows were being shot, I was thinking here we go again, another no finish in Detroit. Pollard was funny when Ben got in his face he was saying "WHAT" "WHAT".... classic moment. Glad we won. This BUDS for you Pacers.

    Kick *** in Chicago Saturday night. D.Davis owns the lane when he's in there. Peck you will remember me from the old Pacers forum I was BBSG (bleed blue / sweat gold)
    Jay and I will be there representing!
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Peck don't know why I quit. Don't remember, went through some hard times (divorce anyone) I missed talking about the games (especially those with bb knowledge) Star forum, I have been on here and there but the trolls kinda suck there with all their BS. Someone mentioned this forum and said it was "the place" so here i is. Gotta say this is it 4 sure. No doubt we would be best basketball team on planet earth if the brawl didn't happen. Maybe reg's comments will help but I doubt it. I wish he would play 1 more year because next year is ours with DD back in the fold. Frontline of JO,DD,Artest who could ever score against us. If that isn't enough we bring Pollard in to shut down Ben Wallace.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Two comments about the game (sorry, haven't had time to read entire board so if these have ben made elsewhere)

    LORD I LOVE DALE DAVIS! Next to Peck I'm prolly the happiest man on these boards now. Have you noticed how much harder Cro is working since DD's return? And now it seems to be infecting Jeff too? Is it DD's example or is it that they realized thay are in a fight for minutes now. There's a new dog in the pound and he's some real competition for playingtime, if not for next year's job.
    Give it up for Carlisle last night too. His handleing of AJ's foul trouble was masterful. He took chances and gambled, and it worked. His handleing of the team this year has been nothing short of amazing. He's absolutely COY IMO.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    The effect Dale had on the game last night cannot be overstated. He was as good as ever, the impact he had was similar to the impact he had back in the late 90's.

    No one should be surprised, the Pacers interior defense was great for years during the 90's and it certainly was not because of Rik Smits. In fact Dale carried Rik for years at the defensive end. I'm convinced that Rik made Dale's job harder at that end of the court.

    Peck, for a few years now, we've argued about Foster, your main complaint was his lack of offense and lack of physicalness. You always suggested Cro or Brad would help solve at least part of the problem. I never, ever argued that Brad or Cro were not an upgrade offensively, my point always was that neither were good defenders or even decent defenders. Of course Dale is an entirely different animal. As I've said for years Dale is my second favorite Pacers player of all time. I like Jeff but I like Dale more. Dale impacts the game in more ways even though they are about equal offensively.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    The effect Dale had on the game last night cannot be overstated. He was as good as ever, the impact he had was similar to the impact he had back in the late 90's.

    No one should be surprised, the Pacers interior defense was great for years during the 90's and it certainly was not because of Rik Smits. In fact Dale carried Rik for years at the defensive end. I'm convinced that Rik made Dale's job harder at that end of the court.

    Peck, for a few years now, we've argued about Foster, your main complaint was his lack of offense and lack of physicalness. You always suggested Cro or Brad would help solve at least part of the problem. I never, ever argued that Brad or Cro were not an upgrade offensively, my point always was that neither were good defenders or even decent defenders. Of course Dale is an entirely different animal. As I've said for years Dale is my second favorite Pacers player of all time. I like Jeff but I like Dale more. Dale impacts the game in more ways even though they are about equal offensively.
    I think DD, JO, and RA is a scary front court. If RA can keep his head on next year, and they can stay healthy, I think that is the right combo. DD was one of the best pickups the pacers could have made. He was very impressive last night.

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Ya think Dale might be happy to be a Pacer again!?!?!?!?!
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    I think one thing to really keep in mind here is the system that Dale is playing in. Why hasn't Dale been this effective with his other teams? Because they did not utilize him properly. Rick has a terrific system of getting the big men in place, and for some reason, he fits in with this team a whole lot better. So naturally, his impact is 10 times greater. Which rocks my world. And Peck's too.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Rick is great at putting players in position to be effective. He does not ask players to do things they are incapable of doing. He tries to cover up a players weakness. That means not giving the ball to Ben Wallace or Jeff Foster for that matter. Of course you could argue that with this approach Rick does not expand guys games. Fair criticism. But Rick would say his job is to win games.

    Larry Brown's approach is slightly different. he is more into developing guys. That is why Ben shoots more now. If Rick were still the Pistons coach he would direct more shots to players other than Ben. If If Larry Brown were the Pacers coach he would give Jeff more shots, he might run a play for Jeff now and then. Jeff likely would become a little better offensively, but the downside is the team might suffer a little

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Rick is great at putting players in position to be effective. He does not ask players to do things they are incapable of doing. He tries to cover up a players weakness. That means not giving the ball to Ben Wallace or Jeff Foster for that matter. Of course you could argue that with this approach Rick does not expand guys games. Fair criticism. But Rick would say his job is to win games.

    Larry Brown's approach is slightly different. he is more into developing guys. That is why Ben shoots more now. If Rick were still the Pistons coach he would direct more shots to players other than Ben. If If Larry Brown were the Pacers coach he would give Jeff more shots, he might run a play for Jeff now and then. Jeff likely would become a little better offensively, but the downside is the team might suffer a little
    Sort of like how Satan used to shoot way WAY too much. I used to cringe every time McKey got the ball because I knew no one would guard him and that he would take and clank the shot. I always hated Larry for that.

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    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    I agree with the point made about Ben Wallace.

    I think Wallace is obnoxious. Like you said, his mental game is weak when he plays against more physical players.

    Seeing Pollard not back down from Ben was hilarious. Ben is all talk and thinks that every player should be scared of him. I frankly think is one of the most arrogant players in the game today. Pollard made him look like a moron.

  21. #21
    BabbleOn
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Dave
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    Perhaps Ben just gets this persona since he plays in a time of soft play and frail Bender like players.

    Not the age of giants that Dale played in.
    This is a joke, right? You do recall Ben battled Shaq in the Finals? Successfully.



    Time to pull out the Jump to Conclusions mat.

  22. #22
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    Sort of like how Satan used to shoot way WAY too much. I used to cringe every time McKey got the ball because I knew no one would guard him and that he would take and clank the shot. I always hated Larry for that.

    What are you talking about? I was always of the opinion that Derrick McKey didn't shoot enough.

    When McKey played regular he was an excellent shooter. His career field goal percentage was .486. His first year with the Pacers he shot 50% from the floor in 34 minutes per game. Year's 2 and three he shot .493, and .486, so Larry Brown had every reason to want McKey to shoot more.

    It was only during Larry Brown's last year as Pacer coach that Mckey had a bad shooting percentage, .391. I think that had more to do with everyone tuning Brown out and playing lousy.

    It's not that McKey couldn't shoot, mostly he just wouldn't. I'm of the opinion he cost us a championship or two by NOT shooting! You don't have to guard someone who won't shoot.

  23. #23
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Okay Peck, I'm still trying to figure you out. Ben (IMO, wrongly) taking exception to an (unintential) elbow makes him a *****. But, if he'd thrown Scot down and started choking him, then he's a real man?
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  24. #24
    ReggieMiller8325
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    First off ReggieMiller8325 take a bow. None of us had the faith you did when it came to this tough stretch of games & I would venture to say that if we were asked which two games we would win & which two we would lose I assure you nobody would have said we would beat Detroit & San Antonio back to back. You had the faith, so keep the fires burning.
    thanks peck i just feel we have to keep our heads up we are the pacers i know we can win we should win we are the team of heart.I know that Reggie and S-jax would play hard all weak a two game losing streak can't bring us down we are the Pacers.We should be able to win every game and try our hardest.The player of the game award gose to Dale Davis.I have to give to him because his aggresivnes near the rim and his rebounding abbilty was marvelous Ben couldn't by him he kept ben down as ben shot 3-12 from the field.Our energy Player was Austin Croshere he was consitenetly hitting shots and drawing fouls he was our leading scorer and he kept everything together.Setting the pace has to go to Reggie Miller he had 14 points and consistently scored he kept shooting he drew fouls and had that with only 8 attempts from the field great performance by Reggie Miller.Once again thanks peck and next game we should be able to win we are fired up and will win i have fiath we can do it Go pacers

  25. #25
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Detroit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    Okay Peck, I'm still trying to figure you out. Ben (IMO, wrongly) taking exception to an (unintential) elbow makes him a *****. But, if he'd thrown Scot down and started choking him, then he's a real man?
    Yes.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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