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Thread: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Owner worked to help Artest
    Herb Simon joined other Pacers officials in their effort to get player reinstated.





    By Mark Montieth
    mark.montieth@indystar.com
    March 25, 2005


    Indiana Pacers owner Herb Simon broke his public silence on Ron Artest's seasonlong suspension Thursday.

    His primary message: His silence shouldn't be confused with agreement with NBA commissioner David Stern's penalty or lack of concern for Artest.

    Simon, contacted by The Indianapolis Star on Thursday, said that he, Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh and team president Larry Bird worked behind the scenes on a virtual daily basis to have Artest's penalty reduced for his part in the Nov. 19 brawl at Detroit.

    Stern admitted to considering a reduction in Artest's suspension that would allow the All-Star forward to play this season, but said Monday he has decided to uphold it. Artest will rejoin the Pacers for games next season, although he is currently allowed to practice with the team.

    "We tried to play this the right way," Simon said. "We're team players, we follow the rules of the league and we don't go public. But our fans and players should know that Donnie and Larry and I have been working on this thing consistently since the day of the incident."

    Simon, Walsh and Bird flew to New York to meet with Stern and other league representatives at the NBA's headquarters on Dec. 1 to make a formal appeal for a reduction in Artest's penalty. They held out hope it would happen until Stern's announcement earlier this week.

    "It's hard for me to fathom," Simon said. "In earlier meetings he gave suggestions of what Ron can do to rehabilitate himself. Ron and his people have done everything they've asked and then some.

    "The biggest problem is the misperception of Ronnie. He's given back to his community forever, has come out of a tough environment, has not messed around with drugs, has the best work ethic of anybody . . . He's not the kind of person people think. Yes, he made a mistake, but there were a lot of elements there. Even though we were responsible for part of it, the burden fell too heavily on us."

    Simon said he still wants to appeal for Artest's reinstatement this season, but admitted, "I don't know where to go from here."

    Simon, who along with his brother, Mel, bought the Pacers in 1983, said he hopes changes can be made in how major penalties such as those the Pacers received are imposed and reviewed. Currently, the commissioner has sole authority to issue suspensions and hear appeals.

    "We all have to take a step back to review the process," he said. "There's got to be a better way."

    Call Star reporter Mark Montieth at (317) 444-6406.

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    What I gathered from reading the article is that the Simons have very
    little influence. I find that amazing as they have been superb owners
    and you would think that would have some goodwill to draw upon.
    I also believe that Stern does not like the Pacers. In the last part of the
    article the simons wonder where they can go from here? I thought they could approach the other owners to intervene. This situation will only get nastier when the current agreement is re-negotiated this summer. This is looking to be a long and drawn out process. There may not be a Ron citing next year
    either. Mostly because of the massive ego that is David Stern.
    Lockout/strike here we come. Pathetic.



    owl

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    It's hard for me to fathom," Simon said. "In earlier meetings he gave suggestions of what Ron can do to rehabilitate himself. Ron and his people have done everything they've asked and then some.

    "The biggest problem is the misperception of Ronnie. He's given back to his community forever, has come out of a tough environment, has not messed around with drugs, has the best work ethic of anybody . . . He's not the kind of person people think. Yes, he made a mistake, but there were a lot of elements there. Even though we were responsible for part of it, the burden fell too heavily on us."

    Simon said he still wants to appeal for Artest's reinstatement this season, but admitted, "I don't know where to go from here."

    __________________________________________________ __________

    I want to comment on this part. It almost seems that Stern gave the Pacers the impression that if Ron did certain things he would be reinstated, evidently Ron did those things and Stern did not reinstate him. Seems that is what has Herb Simons upset.



    Hopefully Ron is doing OK and is not too depressed, there is nothing worse than doing everything you're supposed to do and still not getting what you want.

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Quote Originally Posted by owl
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    There may not be a Ron citing next year
    either.
    I sure hope Ron doesn't get cited for anything next year. I'm crossing my fingers. I wouldn't mind a Ron Artest sighting though

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    It's hard for me to fathom," Simon said. "In earlier meetings he gave suggestions of what Ron can do to rehabilitate himself. Ron and his people have done everything they've asked and then some.

    "The biggest problem is the misperception of Ronnie. He's given back to his community forever, has come out of a tough environment, has not messed around with drugs, has the best work ethic of anybody . . . He's not the kind of person people think. Yes, he made a mistake, but there were a lot of elements there. Even though we were responsible for part of it, the burden fell too heavily on us."

    Simon said he still wants to appeal for Artest's reinstatement this season, but admitted, "I don't know where to go from here."

    __________________________________________________ __________

    I want to comment on this part. It almost seems that Stern gave the Pacers the impression that if Ron did certain things he would be reinstated, evidently Ron did those things and Stern did not reinstate him. Seems that is what has Herb Simons upset.



    Hopefully Ron is doing OK and is not too depressed, there is nothing worse than doing everything you're supposed to do and still not getting what you want.

    This article indeed debunks a few myths and suppostions, 1. being that Walsh was not the one lying when he said the Pacers asked for re-instatement, that quote shows that the one lying in plain daylight is Stern, the honourable.

    In the light of that blatant lie, it also becomes clear that he has lead the Pacers organization and Ron on in a way that can only be described as "low".

    Setting goals is one thing, but if someone accomplishes those goals ("and then some" is the real quote and this is not the first time I read this) and you do not keep your end of the bargain, it makes you "scum of the earth" if you are in a position to do what you promised to begin with.

    What has become blatantly clear is that Stern lost his "friend" the Simons.
    What that is going to do for the CBA negotitions, where now most likely the owners will side with the PA for a reform on Stern's power in these matters is unclear but what I wrote in my opinions on the process and due process earlier has now become blatantly clear.

    Stern not keeping his promise (which is what clearly is stated here) is something that is incomprehensible in the light of the fact that the owners still pay his salary. I can see people like Cuban jumping on any action to curtail him sufficiently.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    I find it amazing that the Simon's thought Stern would treat Artest fairly. Stern doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason to his suspensions. Look at Marbury - Rodman got 10 games for EXACTLY the same thing. The difference is Stern didn't like Rodman and Rodman didn't play for the Knicks. Stern doesn't like Artest and there was no way he was going to reinstate him.

    I agree w/UB - it appears Stern gave them a list of things Ron needed to do to be reinstated - he did them and still Stern says "ahhh - I don't think so."

    I personally think Stern is making a mistake PR-wise. He should've allowed Ron back with about 10 games to go. All of the media would have swarmed and over-analyzed Artest before the playoffs start. Then you have the playoffs and the summer free agent period to let the story die down. As it stands now this is going to be discussed Ad Nauseum for the whole month of October and November and the evils of the NBA will be on Sportscenter every day. This is a poor decision by Stern.
    "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    "Citing" =====duuhhhh

    "Sighting"=====good



    owl

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    What did Marbury do? And what did Rodman get 10 games for?

    It sounds like you're referring to Steve Francis of the getting 3 games to Rodman's 11 for kicking a cameraman...?

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    What did Marbury do? And what did Rodman get 10 games for?

    It sounds like you're referring to Steve Francis of the getting 3 games to Rodman's 11 for kicking a cameraman...?

    My bad - I was referring to Francis. The only reason I could see for the discrepancy was this "prior history" thing Stern uses. I still contend the league would take less of a PR hit by getting it over with but I'm not the Czar of the NBA - Stern is.
    "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Well maybe this article will shut up some of our posters that seem to think the Pacers did nothing to get Ron reinstated since they didn't make it public knowledge as they were doing it.

    Maybe we will all finally get the fact that the Pacers and other NBA teams don't put their day to day operating details out for public consumption for a reason. I am guessing it is easier to negotiate behind the scenes without public opinion swaying one side or the other.

    I for one say good job Pacers Front Office. They did their best and from what the article says they were lead along, I am sure someone will claim they should have seen this coming, but the fact of the matter is they did go to bat for their guy and struck out. Can't fault them, blame Stern. He is really playing with fire, especially with the negotiations of a new CBA coming up. I agree this does not bode well for a possible lockout/strike next season. Players and owners may agree that Artest should serve his time for his crime, but I think you will be hard pressed to find a player or union head that doesn't believe the punishment was excessive. I wouldn't be suprised that a major problem addressed in the new CBA is a limit on suspension time/Stern's say in those suspensions. I think you will see some sort of Player/Owner appeal system in place, much like in baseball. I think if the union doesn't get this, they will likely walk away from the table.

    MarcD

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    According to Mark Montieth, several of the owners were not pleased with the length of Artest's suspension. I've read MM say this and I've heard him on local and national radio shows say this.

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Wow, that's some major spinning/ damage control.

    Who really knows what to believe anymore?

    These guys should all be in politics.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    The suspension was over the top as far as length and precedent is concerned. Of course the general public always wants to crucify the wrong doer and felt that it was a fair suspension. Of course if it had been them they would have been singing a different tune. Stern is just bowing to public
    opinion and Ron is the whipping boy for all that is wrong with the NBA.
    I hope we get to see a season and Ron next year.



    owl

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Wow, that's some major spinning/ damage control.

    Who really knows what to believe anymore?

    These guys should all be in politics.
    How is this spin control? Not once since he has owned the Pacers have I heard either of the Simon's speak out to a media source. To me, this is a calculated way for the the Simon's to speak out against what they see is a snub from David Stern. They've supported Stern from the beginning, and from all accounts are friends, and this shows that they are willing to disprove theories like yours, that Artest is reviled by teammates and the front-office alike simply because you don't like him. I think it's pretty low to call out the Simon's integrity ("Who really knows what to believe anymore?") because you happen to have a different point of view.

    They obviously believed he was going to be reinstated, and feel jilted when Stern went public the other day upholding the ban.

    It may be a calculated statement - definitely one of displeasure, but nothing about it speaks of political spin.

    I do see a major conflict in collective bargaining brewing however!

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    I'm not sure it would require the CBA to change this. Couldn't the owners redefine the office of the commisioner and his job description? He is their employee afterall. I really wonder how many are upset with Der Fuhrer...he IS making them a ton of money.
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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    I'm not sure it would require the CBA to change this. Couldn't the owners redefine the office of the commisioner and his job description? He is their employee afterall. I really wonder how many are upset with Der Fuhrer...he IS making them a ton of money.
    He is making money with the NBA, that is true, however.....................

    What happened to the Pacers and one of their All Star players, can happen to any other owner in the NBA without Stern having to reckon with appeal options or anything else.

    I think it is clear, from what I read, that the owners are non to happy about that risk.
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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Wow, that's some major spinning/ damage control.

    Who really knows what to believe anymore?

    These guys should all be in politics.
    Excuse me, but what the hell are you talking about? I don't see any spin at all. It looks like you're seeing what you want to see, not what's slapping you in the face..... but maybe that's just me.....


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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    The new CBA will definetly clamp down on Stern's carte blanche power. It's possible that Stern will use it as a bargaining chip for a minimum entry age.

    Stern will allow broader arbitration over the penalties he hands out in exchange for a minimum 20 year age restriction for NBA entry.

    It also sounds like Stern may have pulled a "bait and switch" at the expense of the Pacers. I think that Stern may have allowed Artest back if the Pacers had a realistic shot at the title. With O'Neal and Tinsley sidelined, Stern may think that the Pacers would not gain appreciably from having Ron back.

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Silly question: Isn't the new collective bargining agreement effectively between the owners and the players? I believe that technically it's between the league and the players, but isn't the league going to represent the owner's wishes? And, if the players want to limit the commissioner's power with regards to penalties and the owners want to limit the commissionier's power with regards to penalties how will that cause negotiations to break down?
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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    In response criticism that, since the team failed to get Ron reinstated, and Stern's bizarre comments from time-to-time about having never recieved an application for reinstatement...

    I think this is all about damage control.

    Do I believe the Simons asked for Ron's reinstatement? Yes. Absolutely.

    Do any of us really know whether they wanted Ron reinstated so they could get him back onto the court or to just trade him for someone else they could put on the court? No.

    Are all of these nice comments about Ron intended for me, a fan of the team that doesn't approve of the direction they've been going? Or for other GMs that might be intrigued by the possibility of a rehabilitated Artest? Or for Ron's fans - to keep them from blaming the team for a failed reinstatement effort? Or for Ron's people, if Ron truly believed he was going to be reinstated and is upset by this?

    All of those - well maybe not the first one - are likely. There's probably a decent amount of truth in there. But its clearly being "spun", for some reason or another that isn't clear.

    Pardon me for seeing more than one way to interpret this... and for the record, many of those are not "what I want to hear."

    I'm sorry I opened my mouth in the first place. You all can take your 'thinking caps' off and go back to believing everything you read in The Star.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Maybe I'm just in a bad mood, but I'm tired of being made to feel like I'm wrong because I don't become a cynic over everything a Pacer personnel says.

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I'm sorry I opened my mouth in the first place. You all can take your 'thinking caps' off and go back to believing everything you read in The Star.
    Okay, Oliver Stone


    I enjoy the discourse regardless, so please, keep opening your mouth.

    I still think you're way off on this article. The Simon's just wouldn't do this for any other reason than to explain to the fans that they did try, and to express their anger with Stern. I think if anything, this is a setup for some pretty bad blood during the CBA negotiations. The Simon's have plenty of clout among other owners, so I'm sure Stern will get this message very clearly when one of his toadies passes him along this article.

    Sounds like tit-for-tat: Stern shoots down Artests reinstatement in the media, instead of person-to-person? Simon calls Stern out in public as well.

    That's as conspiracy theory as I'm gonna get with this.

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    In response criticism that, since the team failed to get Ron reinstated, and Stern's bizarre comments from time-to-time about having never recieved an application for reinstatement...

    I think this is all about damage control.

    Do I believe the Simons asked for Ron's reinstatement? Yes. Absolutely.

    Do any of us really know whether they wanted Ron reinstated so they could get him back onto the court or to just trade him for someone else they could put on the court? No.

    Are all of these nice comments about Ron intended for me, a fan of the team that doesn't approve of the direction they've been going? Or for other GMs that might be intrigued by the possibility of a rehabilitated Artest? Or for Ron's fans - to keep them from blaming the team for a failed reinstatement effort? Or for Ron's people, if Ron truly believed he was going to be reinstated and is upset by this?

    All of those - well maybe not the first one - are likely. There's probably a decent amount of truth in there. But its clearly being "spun", for some reason or another that isn't clear.

    Pardon me for seeing more than one way to interpret this... and for the record, many of those are not "what I want to hear."

    I'm sorry I opened my mouth in the first place. You all can take your 'thinking caps' off and go back to believing everything you read in The Star.
    Jay, I'm sorry, but you really need to get out of the dark side or whatever. Not everything someone says in front office is being "spun" or lied about. Not everything people say is meant to mislead people. People DO tell the truth and want people to hear it. Your cynicism and distrust for upper level people is pretty amazing

    I, for one, will take what they have to say. No, we cannot read into their minds, but I want to believe them. When they say good things about Ron like that, I will assume they want everyone to believe he isn't a bad person. Why? Because he has the perception of that in the league by fans who think he is a rogue. But we know Ron to be a very nice and likeable guy, and they just want to make sure that everyone else knows that. And if they say such nice things about him, I would want to believe that they like the guy enough to keep him, and they fully support him. And I will continue to go with that mindset into next season.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    As the old saying goes;; power corrupts absolute; Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.
    And yes Stern will pay for this. come summer, If the owners don't at the very least take his absolute power from him, then the Players will. Or we will all suffer, Because there will be no NBA season in 05-06.

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    Default Re: Simons go to bat for Artest. A few myths are de-bunked

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    Jay, I'm sorry, but you really need to get out of the dark side or whatever. Not everything someone says in front office is being "spun" or lied about. Not everything people say is meant to mislead people. People DO tell the truth and want people to hear it. Your cynicism and distrust for upper level people is pretty amazing
    Well, most of my clients are lawyers.

    Even though I'm in finance, we spend most of our time crafting the words in our reports to send whatever message we want/need/have been hired to send.

    We chuckle about how we prep CEO's to either tell the "woe-is-me" story or "my company is FANTASTIC" story depending on whether they're dealing with the IRS or a potential investor... and its the same cash flows.

    And that doesn't even involve the media.

    There's a reason there's an entire cottage industry related to media - public relations.

    I'm not saying they're trying to mislead people. I'm saying there out there spinning the story into whatever they want people to hear. And sometimes, they want people to hear the truth. For example, I don't doubt for a second that Ron's stayed clear of drugs or that he's a genuinely generous person.

    Donnie Walsh is one of the absolute masters of this. If I hadn't been following him for ninteen years ("I'm drafing Kenny Walker, I'm drafting Kenny Walker" ... "with the fourth pick in the 1986 draft, the Pacers select Chuck Person.") I might be less cynical.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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