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Thread: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    You realize that works that way for running backs right? If I took 3 big runs out of every running backs 90 carries, then a lot of them would be below the 4 YPC mark. Boom and every other running back gets big runs that burst his YPC average up, Trent doesn't. Not to mention Boom has been a lot better receiving wise than Trent, not to say Trent sucks at being a receiver out of the backfield, but he doesn't have the elusiveness or speed Boom does, so Boom obviously has more success there.
    So let's see all those RBs who fall under that.

    And Boom gets more receptions out of the backfield, simply because the Colts changed their offensive philosophy. But Boom's catches don't produce anymore than Trent's. Boom yards per catch? 8.2 Trent's? 8.5.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

  2. #27

    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    TJ said it came from the Colts pre-game show on the radio, IIRC.
    I like to think that the Colts are just covering for him and he really just pulled an Ozzie Smith:

    WE ARE NOT GETTING ERIC GORDON

  3. #28

    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yep, because 100% and 3% are so mathmatically close to each other.
    They're not, but you didn't use 3%. You used 100% of his longest runs, and I used 100% of Andrew Luck's touchdown passes.

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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    They're not, but you didn't use 3%. You used 100% of his longest runs, and I used 100% of Andrew Luck's touchdown passes.
    That doesn't even make sense. The three longest runs, but not 100% of his longest runs, because there's no way you could do that. You can take 100% of his total runs, but not his "longest" runs.
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  6. #30

    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    That doesn't even make sense. The three longest runs, but not 100% of his longest runs, because there's no way you could do that. You can take 100% of his total runs, but not his "longest" runs.
    You still have to do it to both players

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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    You still have to do it to both players
    If I was comparing them without their top runs, yeah.

    I'm comparing how often they produce similiar stats, so you need to find out how often they're similiar. They're similiar 96% of the time. I know it's hard to believe, but it passes my eye test and we all know the eye test is unquestionable.
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  9. #32

    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So let's see all those RBs who fall under that.

    And Boom gets more receptions out of the backfield, simply because the Colts changed their offensive philosophy. But Boom's catches don't produce anymore than Trent's. Boom yards per catch? 8.2 Trent's? 8.5.
    Using the 96.7% figure and rounding to the nearest run taken off:

    DeMarco Murray: 3.9
    Marshawn Lynch: 3.8
    Le'veon Bell: 3.7
    Arian Foster: 3.7
    LeSean Mccoy: 3.4

    It's not unusual for RB's to be under 4 just taking those carries away. Obviously those guys are better than Herron. If I went down a level and went to names like Morris, Bell, Mason, Stewart, and Bernard, their effects would put them closer to that 3.4 that Herron did, and they also have carry totals that are close to Herron's. I could do that if you like when I get another chance.

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  11. #33

    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    That's why it's a hilarious anecdote. You take away the top performances of anyone and their numbers are going to look more pedestrian.

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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    That's why it's a hilarious anecdote. You take away the top performances of anyone and their numbers are going to look more pedestrian.
    Well obviously. The point isn't to make Boom look pedestriatian. The point is to illustrate just how often Boom and Trent produce similiar numbers.

    It goes back to people saying Boom performs so much better, and how good the run game looks. 96% of the time, it looks exactly the same.
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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    I'll assume Cubs' numbers are right. But that's the difference between 3% of 280 and 3% of 90. I'm still standing by my illustration, I'm not backing away.

    But at the same time, the difference in raw total numbers does hold weight. We are watching Boom's production go down, as he's given more reps. What do you think would happen to Boom's production if his workload was doubled? Production won't reduce by half, but it will continue to go down. Lynch and Company, can produce at a higher level with a bigger workload. It's impressive, just on a phsyical stand point.

    Almost tempted to start breaking out some bell curves with standard deviations.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

  15. #36

    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    That's why it's a hilarious anecdote. You take away the top performances of anyone and their numbers are going to look more pedestrian.

    The argument comparing Trent and Boom morphed into that because, well, there was no further argument to support Trent; a historically bad running back. It deflects attention away from the real issue, which is that Trent has the 2nd lowest YPC of all-time for running backs. 2nd lowest all-time.

    The arguments have always deflected away from Trent. First his poor performance was because opponents stacked the box against us. Then, it was because of our o-line. Then, it was because of his hamstring. And now, it's about Boom's equal performance when you take away his non-starting games and best runs.

    The truth is, Trent is slow, has the worst vision I've ever seen from a running back, and makes poor decisions. Luck never trusted Trent enough to even throw him the ball in the flat, which he's now doing regularly with Boom. Every running back we've during Trent's tenure has outperformed him. And now Trent isn't even dressing in front of some guy we signed last Tuesday.

    The only thing I've learned in this entire debate is about the people involved in it (and Cubs' stat). It's over for me.

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  17. #37

    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'll assume Cubs' numbers are right. But that's the difference between 3% of 280 and 3% of 90. I'm still standing by my illustration, I'm not backing away.

    But at the same time, the difference in raw total numbers does hold weight. We are watching Boom's production go down, as he's given more reps. What do you think would happen to Boom's production if his workload was doubled? Production won't reduce by half, but it will continue to go down. Lynch and Company, can produce at a higher level with a bigger workload. It's impressive, just on a phsyical stand point.

    Almost tempted to start breaking out some bell curves with standard deviations.
    I would agree with that. One big reason that the names I mentioned are better is that they can maintain that good of an average over such a large workload. That doesn't dismiss the overall point that you can't just take out the big runs, but it does qualify it.

    So let's go another way. Can you name a few offenses that you think are average or better at running the ball and who does not have a true workhorse back? There are so few workhorse backs that there should be several out there. I can run the numbers for them, but I'd hate to run the numbers for a bunch of guys only to find they aren't great examples for who you think is a good running team.

    Obviously just about anybody we compare is going to have more carries than Herron because Herron only has half a season of data, but there are plenty of examples out there of 10-20 carry a game backs that aren't workhorses to get a better comparison of how much their numbers come down.

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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    That's why it's a hilarious anecdote. You take away the top performances of anyone and their numbers are going to look more pedestrian.

    The argument comparing Trent and Boom morphed into that because, well, there was no further argument to support Trent; a historically bad running back. It deflects attention away from the real issue, which is that Trent has the 2nd lowest YPC of all-time for running backs. 2nd lowest all-time.

    The arguments have always deflected away from Trent. First his poor performance was because opponents stacked the box against us. Then, it was because of our o-line. Then, it was because of his hamstring. And now, it's about Boom's equal performance when you take away his non-starting games and best runs.

    The truth is, Trent is slow, has the worst vision I've ever seen from a running back, and makes poor decisions. Luck never trusted Trent enough to even throw him the ball in the flat, which he's now doing regularly with Boom. Every running back we've during Trent's tenure has outperformed him. And now Trent isn't even dressing in front of some guy we signed last Tuesday.

    The only thing I've learned in this entire debate is about the people involved in it (and Cubs' stat). It's over for me.
    When TRich first got here Luck did throw him the ball, and he dropped them. That's why I was surprised when statistically he appeared to be a decent receiver. I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped them in practice as well and part of the reason we didn't utilize that part of his game as much as you'd think we would. Possibly it was a case where the numbers didn't tell the entire tale.
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

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  19. #39

    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Much of the anger here should be directed at Grigson who out of desperation made this trade. TR did nothing at Cleveland to warrant getting a first. Did Grigson ask why Cleveland was so willing to unload TR or even if he could get TR in the 3rd or 4th round.

    You trade a first for a guy who is underperforming on another team and then stay with him for a season and a half because you can't admit you were taken? Then you get the coaches to compound your stupidity with a whole bunch of excuses blaming the OL and lack of preparation in the offseason.

    Grigson did a bunch of things right but the TR fiasco is his.

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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Much of the anger here should be directed at Grigson who out of desperation made this trade. TR did nothing at Cleveland to warrant getting a first. Did Grigson ask why Cleveland was so willing to unload TR or even if he could get TR in the 3rd or 4th round.

    You trade a first for a guy who is underperforming on another team and then stay with him for a season and a half because you can't admit you were taken? Then you get the coaches to compound your stupidity with a whole bunch of excuses blaming the OL and lack of preparation in the offseason.

    Grigson did a bunch of things right but the TR fiasco is his.
    This is the reason people are more upset about Richardson than they are about other underperforming first round picks (I saw Werner's name mentioned). Richardson had a year's worth of NFL experience to prove he wasn't worth a first round pick, and it should have been pretty telling that a year after being picked #3 overall, the team that drafted him was ready to unload him for a pick that wasn't likely to be nearly that high.

    Grigson got fleeced, a lot of people knew it at the time, this isn't revisionist history here. I will give him credit for the Vontae Davis trade though--that was a great trade.

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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Trent will never play another down for the Colts. We might as well have a Griff Whalen thread, and explain how his YPC, or drop ratio somehow equates to him being as good as Moncrief or Nicks. If Trent was any good, regardless of what the numbers say, he would still be playing
    Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Here is the ultimate question for Kid Minneapolis and Since 86: If Trent was on a different team that is good at running the ball, like Houston or Pittsburgh, would he be good there? I say absolutely not
    Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

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  27. #43
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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Here is the ultimate question for Kid Minneapolis and Since 86: If Trent was on a different team that is good at running the ball, like Houston or Pittsburgh, would he be good there? I say absolutely not
    And you know this... how? The eye test?

    I think the more appropriate question is would I change my mind about TRich if he went elsewhere that had a good system and he still showed no improvement, and the answer is absolutely yes. You guys are still way off about what we're arguing about and you're still way off about my stance on TRich. You act like just because I present a defense for him that I think he's amazing and will defend him no matter what. My entire stance is just a fair take on the situation, one that I don't think most of you are doing.
    I think most of you are correlating his draft placement and irrationality relating that to your like or dislike of him. My stance is completely independent if his draft position and cost to us. It's purely football and I feel he's got ability to succeed. I don't see a huge difference between him and the other backs. I understand most of you disagree with that and think he sucks. I don't care what you think.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 01-13-2015 at 10:13 PM.
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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    And you know this... how? The eye test?

    I think the more appropriate question is would I change my mind about TRich if he went elsewhere that had a good system and he still showed no improvement, and the answer is absolutely yes. You guys are still way off about what we're arguing about and you're still way off about my stance on TRich. You act like just because I present a defense for him that I think he's amazing and will defend him no matter what. My entire stance is just a fair take on the situation, one that I don't think most of you are doing.
    Your unwavering defense of him and him in particular sure makes it seem like you will defend him no matter what.

    How are we not giving him a fair take? The guy has had three years in the NFL with two different teams to prove his worth and he hasn't done it or anything close to it.

    If you wanted to go through a bunch of top 5 overall picks who were busts and comb through each of their individual situations and come up with a defense with why they didn't pan out, I'm sure it could be done.

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  30. #45
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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    I see ability in him and I think he's a bit broken right now. I also can relate to that. Sometimes people need a boost or help to get back on track. I also believe the factors around him haven't helped... the ****** line and playcalling. He's not met expectations, but the things around him are starting to show improvement.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 01-13-2015 at 10:19 PM.
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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I see ability in him and I think he's a bit broken right now. I also can relate to that. Sometimes people need a boost or help to get back on track.
    Yes, in a vacuum, I can agree with that. But this is professional football--a results driven business. He's being paid handsomely to be a professional and produce results. He just hasn't done it.

  32. #47
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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Our running game as a whole hasn't done it, man, from top to bottom. He receives almost all of the blame for it.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Our running game as a whole hasn't done it, man, from top to bottom. He receives almost all of the blame for it.
    No, he doesn't. He receives the most backlash because of the high price we paid to obtain his services. When you pay top dollar for something, you expect it to be superior to similar products. So even if his production and Boom Herron's production are close, the fact that Richardson cost us a first round pick means he's going to get more criticism. Is it totally fair to Trent? No, probably not, but that's part of being a professional athlete.

  34. #49
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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Trent didnt draft himself or trade himself. Your anger is misdirected. And that's exactly what I said above. People have irrationality attached that to their expectations of him.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: The Official Trent Richardson Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Trent didnt draft himself or trade himself. Your anger is misdirected. And that's exactly what I said above. People have irrationality attached that to their expectations of him.
    I'm not angry with him. I never was. It was never about him. Trent seems like a good dude who genuinely wants to help the team win. My anger has been directed at Grigson for making that stupid trade. That doesn't mean I'm going to simply give Richardson a pass on his complete lack of production though. It doesn't mean I'm going to make excuses for the guy for not producing. If that's irrational behavior, then you basically think every sports fan ever is irrational.

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