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Thread: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

  1. #51

    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    This is WAYYYYYYYY of topic, but Jalen and Best were two of my favorite players, and once I found PD I found out how much some people hated them.

    but hey, to each his own.........

    The synopsis of Travis is that he was a shooting guard in a point guard's body. He could score and play solid defense on the little guys, but he wasn't a strong assist man and was a liability on taller players. The way he pounded the ball in the same spot drew much of the ire of Pacer fans.

    Rose was oft maligned for defense, but I had a bigger problem with him than that. Rose pulled a vanishing act every fourth quarter and particularly with the game on the line. He would miss shots, free throws... everything. If you are going to be paid a max contract and you don't play defense, you had better step up and hit some money shots. My fear with JO when he came to the team was that he had some of those Jalen tendencies. However, I do think JO has matured and gotten better with those situations. Rose just never seemed to get comfortable at crunch time.

    He hates it, but I still think Jalen is one of those guys who is just a better bench player. He can give you instant offense, and without the pressure of starting he plays better. I also remember once in a galaxy far far away... when he actually did defend number 23 of the Bulls pretty respectably. For whatever reason he decided to stop.

    Of the 2 I miss Travis more. He is another one of those guys who seemed to do better in the Pacers system. He just never has gotten on track anywhere else. He hit the big winner at Milwaukee and he took a charge from Shaq... that has to command some respect. However, he was always living in the shadow of Mark Jackson when he was here. Two very different players with different skills to bring to the table.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I dunno, I thought Jalen Rose was the best player on that team. In everyone's revisionist/ post-Bird views, he gets discredited around here all the time, but to leave him out of the nucleus discussion altogether is wrong.

    He was re-signed for a max contract.

    The Jalen that played in spring 2000 was an excellent player - very tough on offense and gave a lot of effort and was solid on defense.

    The Jalen Rose that surfaced when Isiah was the coach wasn't worth squat. I've always blamed Isiah for not holding Jalen accountable, including handing him the PG spot after Travis had shown he'd earned it.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  3. #53
    Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    I don't think Travis has been the same since Shaq screwed up his shoulder.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Yeah, IMO, Isiah created the Jalen Rose "scoring monster" that everyone hates, and then he didn't know how to put it back in the box.

    In fairness to Jalen, we rarely called on him down the stretch; at crunch time it was still Reggie's team because the fans wouldn't accept the transition that was already in place long before the NBA Finals appearance.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  5. #55

    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Yeah, IMO, Isiah created the Jalen Rose "scoring monster" that everyone hates, and then he didn't know how to put it back in the box.

    In fairness to Jalen, we rarely called on him down the stretch; at crunch time it was still Reggie's team because the fans wouldn't accept the transition that was already in place long before the NBA Finals appearance.
    I disagree. Jalen had become our leading scorer and with the exception of the playoffs, Reggie was trying to pass the torch to Jalen. Jalen could just not deliver. And, it wasn't just last second shots (of which he missed many,) but he would sometimes vanish for the entire 4th quarter. I really think that is why Walsh ended up pulling the trigger on the trade. It became painfully obvious that Jalen just wasn't going to develop into that type of player.

    The good news about Rose is that he could score 20 points in one quarter on any given night. But, he could fade away in an instant. A great guy to have on your bench, but not the guy to build your franchise on.

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    At the same age, Reggie was still deferring to Chuck and Detlef during the fourth quarter.

    It takes time to move from "bona fide NBA scorer" to clutch performer.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  7. #57

    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    At the same age, Reggie was still deferring to Chuck and Detlef during the fourth quarter.

    It takes time to move from "bona fide NBA scorer" to clutch performer.

    Really? Maybe Jalen was younger than I thought, or maybe it took longer than I thought for Reggie to start taking clutch shots. Was Reggie signed to a max contract when he was missing shots in the fourth quarter?

    I was hard on Rose b/c of the money. If you get max dollars you need to give max performance. Perhaps he would have developed into that type of guy over time, but I didn't even see glimpses that it would happen. Not all players have that gift, and not all are classified as superstars. Horry is as clutch as you can get, but not necessarily one of the top 2 guys on a team.

    Ah, I suppose I'm just re-burning ashes anyway. He's gone and I for one am glad. He is a player I don't hope to see returning in a Blue and Gold uniform.

  8. #58
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Reggie played for five or six years and only attempted a couple of clutch shots.

    When Versace put Reggie on the all-star team for the first time, Reggie was scoring 24 ppg and was averaging something like 17 ppg during the first half.

    Chuck hit more clutch shots as a rookie than Reggie even attempted for a number of seasons, and after Chuck was traded Detlef was almost always the go-to guy down the stretch.

    In hindsight, you're right. Jalen proved to be a guy that could score in bunches but not so well at crunch time. Blame his contract, blame Isiah for setting him up to fail, blame his new-found aversion to defense, etc. But at the end of the Bird era, he was the best player on an NBA Finals team, so if Eddie Jones could get a max contract, it was easy to see why Jalen earned one. He didn't live up to it after he earned it, that's indisputable. But he earned it in the first place, and there are numerous guys in the league that never even earned thier max contracts.

    Oh well, I was always a big Jalen Rose fan, but that's not a safe thing to admit around here. And as I said, I moved up here right after the NBA Finals (well, technically, during Game #4) and in my little world, pre-TiVo, I didn't realize just how unpopular he became.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  9. #59
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan
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    ...but all we got when Bird was coach was, "We didn't put out enough effort." Well, IMO Bird didn't put out enough Xs and Os.
    Exactly.

    To everyone who says Bird was a great coach, I wish I had some tapes, like against Chicago in '98, NY in '99, and especially Milwaukee in 2000 where I could show them what an intractable ****up he was at times. Carlisle is like Don Nelson at times compared to what Bird would do, or more correctly, not do.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  10. #60

    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Hey Doug you forgot the "I hate Larry Bird as Coach" threads.

    For those who didn't like Larry Bird as a coach, I think you would find an interest in reading a couple of his books. I don't remember the titles, but I read one by Mark Shaw and the other one Larry wrote with help from a biographer. I think they are both upstairs but I am too lazy to get them.

    You still may not agree with his philosophy at the end of the day, but you may understand him more. Larry felt like ballgames were won/lost by the players and that coaches tended to muck it up. He carried a staff of 3 coaches while many said he should have many more. He is just a guy that believes in the K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) principle.

    In his book he specifically says he brought on Carlisle b/c he thought he was the best "X's and O's guy" in the business. Fans were upset with him for his lack of emotion, hesitation to call timeouts, and his refusal to veer from his set rotations. He would typically play about an 8 man rotation and that was it.

    As with any coach, some players tend to flourish while others suffer. Croshere and Rose blossomed and Smits didn't do so well. At the end of the day I judge coaches on records more than anything else. It's pretty tough to get better than Larry Brown... he's the best out there. But Larry Bird did a pretty darn good job if you look at their record. Many coaches have done alot worse with less talent than he had. I'll always wonder what he would have done with a lesser team, but we'll probablly never know. All I know is that there is one Pacer coach in NBA to get to the finals and his name is Larry Bird.

  11. #61
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    Hey Doug you forgot the "I hate Larry Bird as Coach" threads.

    For those who didn't like Larry Bird as a coach, I think you would find an interest in reading a couple of his books. I don't remember the titles, but I read one by Mark Shaw and the other one Larry wrote with help from a biographer. I think they are both upstairs but I am too lazy to get them.

    You still may not agree with his philosophy at the end of the day, but you may understand him more. Larry felt like ballgames were won/lost by the players and that coaches tended to muck it up. He carried a staff of 3 coaches while many said he should have many more. He is just a guy that believes in the K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) principle.

    In his book he specifically says he brought on Carlisle b/c he thought he was the best "X's and O's guy" in the business. Fans were upset with him for his lack of emotion, hesitation to call timeouts, and his refusal to veer from his set rotations. He would typically play about an 8 man rotation and that was it.

    As with any coach, some players tend to flourish while others suffer. Croshere and Rose blossomed and Smits didn't do so well. At the end of the day I judge coaches on records more than anything else. It's pretty tough to get better than Larry Brown... he's the best out there. But Larry Bird did a pretty darn good job if you look at their record. Many coaches have done alot worse with less talent than he had. I'll always wonder what he would have done with a lesser team, but we'll probablly never know. All I know is that there is one Pacer coach in NBA to get to the finals and his name is Larry Bird.

    I read both of those books. The one Bird wrote in first person I read many times.

    IMO Bird was an excellent coach. Or let me just say this. The Pacers were very well coached when Bird was the coach. But then I think I look at "coaching" very differently than a lot of poeple. I think 80% of coaching is done at other times besides the 48 minute game.

  12. #62
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Reggie at 1st quarter = holy *******!!! PWERÖLÄ#%`#%?#`?%=`#! !¤`?=)?%= !!!!!!

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    Thumbs down Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ptmiller
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    Reggie at 1st quarter = holy *******!!! PWERÖLÄ#%`#%?#`?%=`#! !¤`?=)?%= !!!!!!



  14. #64
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    tihihi

  15. #65
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ptmiller
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    Reggie at 1st quarter = holy *******!!! PWERÖLÄ#%`#%?#`?%=`#! !¤`?=)?%= !!!!!!
    That's it, you're the first to get the treatment from me, and I'm REALLY tolerant.

  16. #66
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ptmiller
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    This message is hidden because 3ptmiller is on your ignore list.
    That's better.

  17. #67
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Its just wicked how people in here dont tolerate humor

  18. #68
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    Hey Doug you forgot the "I hate Larry Bird as Coach" threads.
    Looks like we got there anyway. :-)

    On the plus side, you could tell time by his substitutions.

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