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Thread: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

  1. #26
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Good point about Dale having fresh legs and there is no way he could play this many minutes the whole season. But with a healthy J.O, he wn't have to lay but 25-30 minutes.

    Just for an example if the Pacers use Dale, J.o and jef at the two big positions. There are 96 minutes available. J.O could play 40, Dale 30 and Jeff 26. And all the minutes are used up, but you know other players will get at least a few minutes at those positions.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    My comments, though not important. I was thinking to myself the whole time in the beginning that Utah was going to catch up. We were making so many three pointers, and I knew it just wasn't going to last. But, what can you do, this is how our team must play. I loved watching Dale and Foster together, it seemed as though they didn't miss a single rebound. I honestly couldn't care which of the two started, they are both fantastic.

    However Peck, you said the Pacers could pull ahead against Philly the next few weeks, and I just don't think that is going to happen. Have you seen our schedule? It is brutal. Cleveland, Utah, LAL, NJ twice, San Antonio, Detroit, Chicago, Miami, Washington twice, Cleveland again, Philly and then Miami to close out the season. That scares me a LOT.
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  3. #28
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Good point about Dale having fresh legs and there is no way he could play this many minutes the whole season. But with a healthy J.O, he wn't have to lay but 25-30 minutes.

    Just for an example if the Pacers use Dale, J.o and jef at the two big positions. There are 96 minutes available. J.O could play 40, Dale 30 and Jeff 26. And all the minutes are used up, but you know other players will get at least a few minutes at those positions.
    I'd say it will/would be something like JO 35 Dale 25 Jeff 26 Scot or David 10.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    This was a great game but very suprising in the 4th quater dale davis was on the boards all night he was the reason why we kept our lead and Aj had a great all around game almost had a triple double with 13 points 9 assist and 7 rebounds.Reggie Miller and Stephen Jacskon anchored the points with 24 and 30 on a combined shooting 18-34 from the field and a combined three point shooting of 6-13 they were the reason why we kept this lead especially miller who scored 6 points in the closing seconds.I don't know how we lost the lead in the 4th quater it was very suprising that that happend a very bad way to show you were giving up on the defense the Pacers better not do that again overall we had a great game this would have been a blowout if the big three was there with Freddy,Stephen and Reggie were there together.

  5. #30
    Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Any road win against a WC team is a good win, blown lead or not. Too many 3 pointers or not.

  6. #31
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    - until Jamaal is healthy enough to run this team again, Dale changes the dynamics of the offense a little bit but not enough.
    Well, thats a tough call... IMO, he changes our "Dynamics" more than enough but it will have to change all over again for the playoffs, God willing, or next season or whenever the team is complete. And then Reggie will be gone so it will change again. I just hope that he can become a rock that we can focus on. He is ultra healthy compared to anyone else on the team, minus Reggie, and can be a standard that won't change when others will be injured, or returning from an injury, and the newer talent will be coming off the bench and changing the way they play,hopefully for the better. Considering next year we will have a whole different set of starters compared to the roster a week ago I think he changes everything a whole lot for the better.

    "The Dale" had 3 steals vs. the lakers and has been one short of his season high rebounds twice since he has come home, once at L.A. and once at Utah. His stats for the three games are quite nice and include, in total, 27 rebounds, 8 assists, 5 steals, 3 Blocks, and 14 pts.

    IMO, his presence has allowed for the outside shot more often with less pressure allowing for SJackson and Reggie to go at it. And when the opposition realizes this they can just give it to Dale inside and let him power it in there or at least for the double team or ball movement or something. We are just more confident and intimidating with Dale. Jackson had his season high of 30 and Reggie with 24 vs. utah. Jax was putting up 18's and 19's early in the season But now has an average of 25.4 ppg in March.

    Peck, I think you need to focus more on Jackson. I know that he can be streaky but honestly he is a must have right now considering... Anyway I hope that Reggie giving the ball more often will pay off, whether its to JO or whoever. I don't think its a bad thing to do but just as long as we can make it to the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    It almost seems like Dale never left.... he just fits in so naturally and seemlessly out there.

    He and Foster work very well together oddly enough.

    I like the way Dale plays the high pick and roll also,,, he "shows" early and comes from an angle that allows him to cover alot of ground efficiently. All Pacer bigs should play it that way rather than trailing there man up and popping out at the last second.

  8. #33

    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Peck,

    I think in much of the "discussions" we had regarding Dale related to many things. At the core of most of the debates I remember, and I'm not trying to resurrect them here, was that the Pacers finals team had went as far as they were going to go. As awesome as DD was/is as a defender, he was completely overmatched by Shaq. And since that team had numerous good seasons and chances to get their ring, I wasn't son upset by the re-tooling that went on. Your stance with BBall was that you don't dismantle a top 2 team b/c you never know what will happen. I understood that perspective, but just disagreed. The wheels did eventually fall off the Laker bus, but I still think it would have proven too late for that Pacer team to take advantage of it.

    JO was a risk, but he had some intriguing prospects. I think we all have to say that JO has played toward the upper level of what we would have expected in the trade. Nobody wanted to lose Dale, but we had to deal somebody of value to get somebody of value. And then there was that whole Dale wanting to leave distraction Whether it was the right or wrong decision is just one of those personal opinion things, and debate likely won't sway decisions either way.

    I find myself trying to compare Dale to Artest and I'm not really sure why I'm trying to do that. Hmmm... Anyway, they are very different players. Artest is more of a perimeter hounder and DD is more of a post defender/rebounder. Artest scores and Dale screens. Ron is unpredictable and Dale is as predictable as snow during the first week of basketball sectionals in Indiana.

    No matter how much Dale does have left in the tank, it is clear that JO has alot more. And when I looked at Dale's stats, he has steadily declined right about after he left. The million dollar question to me is why? Is it b/c his skills got weaker or b/c he was not being used properly? It is probably a combination of the two, but I tend to think he just meshes better with the Indiana system.

    I don't care who was right or wrong, but we can all agree that Dale just looks right in a Pacer uniform. We have missed some of the toughness that he brings to a team. And, the prospect of having a solid perimeter defender in Artest and a post presence with DD... makes the mouth water. As long as we can find some perimeter and mid-range scoring, we are now a championship contender.

    Man, that Walsh sure is shrewd to get Dale back, eh Peck?

  9. #34
    3ptmiller
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Yes really good game, JAX & REGGIE got hot and hit some clutch shots, i hope they continue to play like this everyday

  10. #35
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    Peck,

    I think in much of the "discussions" we had regarding Dale related to many things. At the core of most of the debates I remember, and I'm not trying to resurrect them here, was that the Pacers finals team had went as far as they were going to go. As awesome as DD was/is as a defender, he was completely overmatched by Shaq. And since that team had numerous good seasons and chances to get their ring, I wasn't son upset by the re-tooling that went on. Your stance with BBall was that you don't dismantle a top 2 team b/c you never know what will happen. I understood that perspective, but just disagreed. The wheels did eventually fall off the Laker bus, but I still think it would have proven too late for that Pacer team to take advantage of it.

    JO was a risk, but he had some intriguing prospects. I think we all have to say that JO has played toward the upper level of what we would have expected in the trade. Nobody wanted to lose Dale, but we had to deal somebody of value to get somebody of value. And then there was that whole Dale wanting to leave distraction Whether it was the right or wrong decision is just one of those personal opinion things, and debate likely won't sway decisions either way.

    I find myself trying to compare Dale to Artest and I'm not really sure why I'm trying to do that. Hmmm... Anyway, they are very different players. Artest is more of a perimeter hounder and DD is more of a post defender/rebounder. Artest scores and Dale screens. Ron is unpredictable and Dale is as predictable as snow during the first week of basketball sectionals in Indiana.

    No matter how much Dale does have left in the tank, it is clear that JO has alot more. And when I looked at Dale's stats, he has steadily declined right about after he left. The million dollar question to me is why? Is it b/c his skills got weaker or b/c he was not being used properly? It is probably a combination of the two, but I tend to think he just meshes better with the Indiana system.

    I don't care who was right or wrong, but we can all agree that Dale just looks right in a Pacer uniform. We have missed some of the toughness that he brings to a team. And, the prospect of having a solid perimeter defender in Artest and a post presence with DD... makes the mouth water. As long as we can find some perimeter and mid-range scoring, we are now a championship contender.

    Man, that Walsh sure is shrewd to get Dale back, eh Peck?
    Very shrewd indeed.

    The one last thing I want to say on the subject is that the one argument I had over & over with people even a couple of years after the trade was that we did not give up nothing & got something in return.

    From the day Dale Davis left the franchise to the day he has returned we have not had a solid interior defense with physical play. So we went 5 years without the one thing you need to succeed in the E.C. playoffs IMO.

    But like you said, water under the bridge now.

    I just regrett that it happened, but I understand that I am going to be the only one who feels that way.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  11. #36

    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Very shrewd indeed.

    The one last thing I want to say on the subject is that the one argument I had over & over with people even a couple of years after the trade was that we did not give up nothing & got something in return.

    From the day Dale Davis left the franchise to the day he has returned we have not had a solid interior defense with physical play. So we went 5 years without the one thing you need to succeed in the E.C. playoffs IMO.

    Well, knew we had given up something with Dale. I never really wanted to see him go, it was just a business decision. He had just made the All Star team for the first time, so his popularity was at an all time high.

    I miss lots of things from those teams. The commitment to defense is one thing, but I probably miss the "beautiful game" on offense just as much. JO isoloation basketball is just boring and predictable to watch. JT is fun to watch, but he has yet to develop into the maestro that Mark Jacskon was. I'll always miss Woody as well.

  12. #37
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Too bad we couldn't have traded AD for JO. Then we could've kept DD (after he simmered down) and probably not lost a beat in 2000-2001. In any case we wouldn't have wasted AD's trade value nor would we have lost what we lost in DD... and we wouldn't have wasted all this time on Bender.

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I just regrett that it happened, but I understand that I am going to be the only one who feels that way.
    Not really - though as a non-Pacer fan maybe I don't count.

    I still feel that Pacers team would have made it back to the finals the following year and that, after struggling for ten years and to finally get that close to a title, it was the wrong time to break up the team.

    I continue to disagree with people who think there was no way that team could have beat the Lakers the next year - they were 1 point away from having a 3-2 series lead going back to LA.

    Granted, the Pacers got a monster talent in JO but have they been back to the finals since? Will they be there this year?

    And yeah, I know I'm in the minority in a huge way.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  14. #39
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    I agree with DK.

    I'd also like to add, to win a championship you have to get to the final game. Unless you are a flash in the pan, there's no accounting for that experience.

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  15. #40

    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    Not really - though as a non-Pacer fan maybe I don't count.

    I still feel that Pacers team would have made it back to the finals the following year and that, after struggling for ten years and to finally get that close to a title, it was the wrong time to break up the team.

    I continue to disagree with people who think there was no way that team could have beat the Lakers the next year - they were 1 point away from having a 3-2 series lead going back to LA.

    Granted, the Pacers got a monster talent in JO but have they been back to the finals since? Will they be there this year?

    And yeah, I know I'm in the minority in a huge way.
    Well, this is the other dilemna, how do you define "break up the team."

    Smits retired.
    Jackson signed for crazy money elsewhere.
    Davis asked for a trade.

    Now of our starting five, 3 wanted to go and 2 were gone. There are those who can criticize that Walsh coulda, shoulda, locked some of those guys in to contracts earlier. I think that is a valid criticism in hindsight. However, based on where they were at the end of the year, there were elements that were out of Walsh's control.

    If Walsh brings back Smits and Jax, there would have been just as many people berating Donnie for overspending on "has been" talent as those thinking he was a genius for "preserving the nucleus."

    Granted, we could have brought back a big part of that team with Rose, Miller and DD. But it wouldn't have been the same team that went to the finals regardless. I remember that being a very emotional time for me as a fan. We had made the finals, so I don't think I was elated at the prospect of blowing up the team. But after some of the wheels fell off (Smits, Jax) than it just seemed like the thing to do.

    Where I will continue to have major differences of opinion is with those who thought the Pacers were close in the series. And by that, I am going beyond the boxscore. Although some thought the Pacers were shafted by the officials, I actually thought they kept the Pacers in some games. And remember the Lakers still handed us our lunch in games without Kobe. Whether it came down to a 1 point or 10 point game, I had no confidence we could have stopped either one of them down the stretch when it mattered.

    With the Pacers one year older and the Lakers dynamic duo one year better, I saw us having the chance to be the Utah Jazz or Buffalo Bills. The prospect of that was more painful than re-building for me.

    I still say the Pacers best shot at a title was the strike season. We blew it against the Knicks, and we have not had a better shot since in my opinion.

    Again, I'm not saying I am right or wrong in my opinion. I just think it is important to look at all the facts when considering thoughts on re-building or not. I know all of you guys remember it, but some of the newbies may not. It wasn't a thought of "let's blow this up," it was more "given the circumstances... we may as well finish what has already started."

  16. #41
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    Well, this is the other dilemna, how do you define "break up the team."

    Smits retired.
    Jackson signed for crazy money elsewhere.
    Davis asked for a trade.

    Now of our starting five, 3 wanted to go and 2 were gone. There are those who can criticize that Walsh coulda, shoulda, locked some of those guys in to contracts earlier. I think that is a valid criticism in hindsight. However, based on where they were at the end of the year, there were elements that were out of Walsh's control.

    If Walsh brings back Smits and Jax, there would have been just as many people berating Donnie for overspending on "has been" talent as those thinking he was a genius for "preserving the nucleus."

    Granted, we could have brought back a big part of that team with Rose, Miller and DD. But it wouldn't have been the same team that went to the finals regardless. I remember that being a very emotional time for me as a fan. We had made the finals, so I don't think I was elated at the prospect of blowing up the team. But after some of the wheels fell off (Smits, Jax) than it just seemed like the thing to do.

    Where I will continue to have major differences of opinion is with those who thought the Pacers were close in the series. And by that, I am going beyond the boxscore. Although some thought the Pacers were shafted by the officials, I actually thought they kept the Pacers in some games. And remember the Lakers still handed us our lunch in games without Kobe. Whether it came down to a 1 point or 10 point game, I had no confidence we could have stopped either one of them down the stretch when it mattered.

    With the Pacers one year older and the Lakers dynamic duo one year better, I saw us having the chance to be the Utah Jazz or Buffalo Bills. The prospect of that was more painful than re-building for me.

    I still say the Pacers best shot at a title was the strike season. We blew it against the Knicks, and we have not had a better shot since in my opinion.

    Again, I'm not saying I am right or wrong in my opinion. I just think it is important to look at all the facts when considering thoughts on re-building or not. I know all of you guys remember it, but some of the newbies may not. It wasn't a thought of "let's blow this up," it was more "given the circumstances... we may as well finish what has already started."

    Could not AGREE more.

  17. #42
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Needless to say I don't agree with Brichard. However we've been down this road many times before.

    Let's just all agree to enjoy Reggie's last few games & the fact that Dale is home.

    Nothing would make me more happy than to see the current lineup win a title right now.

    That means no Ron, no J.O., no Jamaal & no Bender.

    I know it will never happen but to see Reggie & Dale lead the players who fought valiantly after the suspensions to a title would be worth everything I have gone through these past 5 years.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  18. #43
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    Well, this is the other dilemna, how do you define "break up the team."

    Smits retired.
    Jackson signed for crazy money elsewhere.
    Davis asked for a trade.

    Now of our starting five, 3 wanted to go and 2 were gone. There are those who can criticize that Walsh coulda, shoulda, locked some of those guys in to contracts earlier. I think that is a valid criticism in hindsight. However, based on where they were at the end of the year, there were elements that were out of Walsh's control.

    If Walsh brings back Smits and Jax, there would have been just as many people berating Donnie for overspending on "has been" talent as those thinking he was a genius for "preserving the nucleus."

    Granted, we could have brought back a big part of that team with Rose, Miller and DD. But it wouldn't have been the same team that went to the finals regardless. I remember that being a very emotional time for me as a fan. We had made the finals, so I don't think I was elated at the prospect of blowing up the team. But after some of the wheels fell off (Smits, Jax) than it just seemed like the thing to do.

    Where I will continue to have major differences of opinion is with those who thought the Pacers were close in the series. And by that, I am going beyond the boxscore. Although some thought the Pacers were shafted by the officials, I actually thought they kept the Pacers in some games. And remember the Lakers still handed us our lunch in games without Kobe. Whether it came down to a 1 point or 10 point game, I had no confidence we could have stopped either one of them down the stretch when it mattered.

    With the Pacers one year older and the Lakers dynamic duo one year better, I saw us having the chance to be the Utah Jazz or Buffalo Bills. The prospect of that was more painful than re-building for me.

    I still say the Pacers best shot at a title was the strike season. We blew it against the Knicks, and we have not had a better shot since in my opinion.

    Again, I'm not saying I am right or wrong in my opinion. I just think it is important to look at all the facts when considering thoughts on re-building or not. I know all of you guys remember it, but some of the newbies may not. It wasn't a thought of "let's blow this up," it was more "given the circumstances... we may as well finish what has already started."
    Great post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Needless to say I don't agree with Brichard.
    What's there not to agree with?

    Smits did retire.
    Jackson did sign for crazy money elsewhere.
    Davis did ask for a trade.

    Those are pretty much facts. Other than Reggie, that was the nucleus of the finals team.

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    I dunno, I thought Jalen Rose was the best player on that team. In everyone's revisionist/ post-Bird views, he gets discredited around here all the time, but to leave him out of the nucleus discussion altogether is wrong.

    He was re-signed for a max contract.

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  20. #45
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I dunno, I thought Jalen Rose was the best player on that team. In everyone's revisionist/ post-Bird views, he gets discredited around here all the time, but to leave him out of the nucleus discussion altogether is wrong.

    He was re-signed for a max contract.

    I always get pissed when folks choose not to remember Jalen Rose. He was one of our two top scorers, with or without defense.

    And he played a VERY central role on the only Pacer team to ever make the finals.

    But sure, OK, he sucked ... or something .

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Jalen gets critizised for his defense, or lack thereof. I don't anybody can complain too much about his ability to score, other than he's a bit streaky.

    Actually, it's not so much that Jalen couldn't play defense, he just seemed to choose not to. Much like a certain-player-whose-name-I-shall-not-type refused to play offense.

    The other significant part about the Jalen trade was there was pretty much nobody else on the roster with any trade value. Ya gotta give something to get something. Jalen wasn't traded because he sucked, he was traded because he didn't.

    (I figure if we're revisiting the break-up of the finals team, we might as well revisit Jalen, too. Up next: Which was the better Davis?)

  22. #47
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    I'd go for Dale everytime. It always seemed to me that AD just tried to imitate DD, for which I can't blame him. But when he couldn't do it he would just be off. I could never get upset because AD did almost everything right he wasn't as good as DD. He'd post, pick, and get the putback, etc. and when that didn't work he would try outside shots or a drive to the bucket, Not bad strategy, but it just seemed he just wasn't there. I know I got no stats or game references but i'll try to look up the game i'm thinking off and get back.

    I'm all for Jalen. At the time I thought he was a loose cannon but that was compared to the Smits, Reggie, and Dale That I knew. And geez after watching a few games with Artest I was really reconsidering the definition of a loose cannon.

  23. #48

    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Needless to say I don't agree with Brichard. However we've been down this road many times before.

    Let's just all agree to enjoy Reggie's last few games & the fact that Dale is home.

    Nothing would make me more happy than to see the current lineup win a title right now.

    That means no Ron, no J.O., no Jamaal & no Bender.

    I know it will never happen but to see Reggie & Dale lead the players who fought valiantly after the suspensions to a title would be worth everything I have gone through these past 5 years.

    We can agree on many things.

    1. Dale is back! Hooray!

    2. Go Reggie in your last year!

    3. Wouldn't it be great if the Pacers won the title this year?

    4. Kiss rocks!


  24. #49
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    I'll make a confession here that may get me into trouble. I stopped watching the Pacers during the playoffs just before the finals with the Lakers. I had been an avid fan from 1993 until then.

    The "breakup" of the team got me somewhat interested the next year, but not much. What drove me away from the team was the perimeter game. "Live by the J, die by the J." Reggie, Jax, Jalen, Smits, Mullin, Travis (he would drive some, in fairness), Cro. I was yearning for some offensive movement like we had in the Larry Brown days, but all we got when Bird was coach was, "We didn't put out enough effort." Well, IMO Bird didn't put out enough Xs and Os.

    I didn't like to see DD traded. He wasn't really part of the problem since he wasn't relied on for offense. But, of course, he couldn't solve the problem either.

    JO was still a work in progress. Definitely an improvement from the "live by the J." days, but not quite there yet. Al's fadeaway did not help matters. The day I really got involved again as a Pacer fan was when we picked up Brad and Artest. All the sudden I saw the inside game I was looking for, more posting up, better percentage shots, and, of course, much better defense.

    All that to say, I guess I was quite happy the team got "broken up." It may cast me as not a very loyal fan, but I just had a hard time watching the Larry Bird coached teams after being spoiled with Larry Brown.

    I do like Carlisle, which surprises me since he was the offensive mind under Bird. But i guess that has to do with the players handed to him. Although, didn't Larry Brown have most of the same players?

  25. #50
    Banned JOneal7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    we blew a 25 pt lead to the jazz...sometimes I worry about this clubs defense. We are sooooooooo bad without ron ron.

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