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Thread: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Yeah it got a little scary down towards the end & I sure would have liked to have seen the offense step up a little more at the beginning of the 4th, but at the end of the day we come home with a W & a 2-2 split out of the west.

    Did anybody honestly think after J.O. went down in Denver we would have won 2 of the next 3?

    Lots of players to talk about & I think I'll start with Reggie.

    It's official to me as of now. Reggie could still have scored 16-18 ppg game this season. He has deferred way to much to J.O. I understand his reasoning & maybe he thinks in the long run the team will be better for it. However, IMO, it has hurt in the short run.

    Reggie was great last night. Not just because he was hitting some shots, but because he was actively looking at shots. The Jazz couldn't just sag off of him & weak defend the post (not that we have one) but he was very aggressive & I even thought he was solid on defense. You can tell that Reggie loves running people through the gauntlet of Davis & Foster. There were times Bell looked like a pinball bouncing in there & one time he got flattened.

    Reggie isn't what he was but I still think there is some gas left in the tank for a final push to the playoffs.

    A.J. First & formost I want to throw out a "God bless you buddy" to Mike Wells of the star. Did you read the notebook of todays star? In it he points out that A.J. is upset he didn't start & even interviewed him about his feelings on the matter. In that one section we had more player/team honesty than we have seen in years (if ever) from the star. We kept saying over & over for the past two years that not everything was shangri la behind the doors in the locker room but you had to read about it from the N.Y. media or the Min. media to find out about it. That's not a slam at any one reporter, but just my sincere thanks for the change of pace. Ok, back to Johnson. He was a mixed bag of nuts last night. There were times I was pulling out my hair with some of the crappy passes he threw, but at the end of the day he had 9 assist & some solid defense along the way. I would like to see what Fred can do in a couple of more games, but it's hard to argue against the fact that as as a backup pg A.J. is solid. I just have a feeling whoever (between Fred & A.J.) we choose they are going to be the pg. for the majority of the rest of the season.

    Dale. Feel free to skip this part if you don't like my Dale blathering. He is just rock solid. He is a special player because he is so good defensively that he can change a game from that side of the floor. He also shares the same trait with Reggie that the bigger the game the bigger the moment the better he is. He saved the game again at the end when in the matter of one play he blocked a shot & stole the ball all on the same possesion. I can't tell you how happy I am he is home. He is even better on defense than I remember him being. If you watch him on a switch you will see that the guard he switches to gets forced farther away from the basket than before he started. Dale has the ability to spread himself out on the floor & I have yet to see a guard get around him. What you all think of Ron as a defender I think of Dale as one.

    Jeff. Again solid game. I was apprehensive of Dale & Jeff together because I didn't know how well they would do on offense, but so far the other players have been able to adjust & compensate. It's funny that they both grabbed 10 rebounds because they do it in such differant ways, but the advantage to that is that we have all of the rebounds covered as we once again outrebounded the opposition.

    Jax was on fire. He is Jalen Rose with better defense at times, although I think Jalen can get off his shot a little better in trafic. When he is on he is a damn dynamo & hard to stop.

    Not all was well though.

    The Hulk. I'm starting to get concerned. Is it the rookie wall? Is it an "I don't care" attitude? Is he really this dumb? I have no real answer for this but what was once looking like a real suprising rookie season has just deteriorated into a real last pick in the first round rookie season. Man I wish he never would have been hit in the jaw. The team should force him to move in with Dale in the off-season & be his valet or something. Because he should learn everything about defense & rebounding from him. Then when he is done with that he should move with J.O. to learn about offense. I still believe & I am still thrilled with his future prospects, but damn this is hard to watch at times.

    Cro. Uninspired basketball at it's best. At least he hit his freethrows (kids learn to hit your freethrows because as Austin has shown you can make a living if you are really really good at it)

    In all though the team played well & Carlisle really has taken to much heat for people saying that he is not willing to adjust or be creative.

    We've got a shot here in the next couple of weeks to not only put some distance between us & the 76ers we could move up a notch or two with some solid play.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Peck,

    I whole heartedly agree on Reggie. I wish he'd bring that game even when JO's in there. We would be very tough with him, JO, Jax, Tins and frankly Dale as threats on the floor.

    Maybe having Dale back will bring out the best in Reggie. The screens he sets are pretty amazing!

    Water

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    I wanted so bad to start a thread right after the game last night, about how Dale Davis was the difference in the game. And he was the reason more so than any other Pacers player that the Pacers won the game. Whenever Dale went out of the game the Pacers defense fell apart. The difference was shocking.

    Peck, I agree with you 100% on Dale, he is a better defender than I remember, and I remember him being a great defender, although he is not flashy.

    Whenever Dale was out especially early in the 4th quarter the Jazz were scoring easily inside then as soon as Dale came back in the Jazz had to settle for outside shots. Why the Warriors did not play him more makes me wonder what their coaching staff was smoking.


    I don't think Dale has lost anything in the past 4 years, he looks as good as ever. Can't wait to see Dale and J.O together. Pacers better sign Dale for next season.

    The effect he has on the Pacers is remarkable, the Pacers coaches must agree, you can tell because they always bring him back into the game earlier than the "regular rotations" would warrant.

    Need to also mention that when Jeff went out of the game last night it was not pretty either, but not as noticeable as when Dale went out.

    I must admit I have not been as mad at an individual player this whole season than I was last night when Cro came in midway through the 4th quarter and gave up an offensive rebound on a missed free throw that lead to a 3 pointer and a one point Pacers lead. I wanted to kill Cro.

    Peck, not sure how you will take this, but seeing Dale Davis on the floor has made me realize several things. The Pacers needed Dale or a player like Dale much more than I realized. It is not just that they needed a big physical guy, Pollard and DH are big physical guys, but they either don't know how to play the NBA game or in Pollard's case he is no more than a 10 minute player.

    The next two comments might surprise you Peck. 1) Dale has made me appreciate Cro's game even less. 2) Pacers need Dale on the floor even when J.O comes back and if that means Jeff has to play significantly fewer minutes than that is OK with me

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    I love Dale Davis. Having not seen him over the past few years, it has surprised me the respect he still commands in the post. Even if there is a part of his game that deteriorated (?) - it appears other players are not anxious to head to the basket. The Pacers would be mad not to have him around for another year.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    It's official to me as of now. Reggie could still have scored 16-18 ppg game this season. He has deferred way to much to J.O. I understand his reasoning & maybe he thinks in the long run the team will be better for it. However, IMO, it has hurt in the short run.

    Reggie was great last night. Not just because he was hitting some shots, but because he was actively looking at shots. The Jazz couldn't just sag off of him & weak defend the post (not that we have one) but he was very aggressive & I even thought he was solid on defense. You can tell that Reggie loves running people through the gauntlet of Davis & Foster. There were times Bell looked like a pinball bouncing in there & one time he got flattened.

    Reggie isn't what he was but I still think there is some gas left in the tank for a final push to the playoffs.

    Good post all together Peck. But the above quote brings ups the question:
    Does Reggie defer himself or is it part of the overall offensive scheme of the Pacers coaching staff for him to defer? I really don't know which it is. I would think that when people come back from the injured list (JO, Tins) Reggie would realize that he is needed (as a shooter not a decoy) for us to contend with Det, and Miami. What are the thoughts of eveyone else on here. Does Reggie defer or is it the offense. (I do not mean this as a post about how great Reggie is or anything like that).

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    U.B. you know my thoughts on Dale.

    My overwhelming joy has been somewhat mixed to an extent the last day or two with regret. Don't get me wrong, he's home & that is the most important thing.

    But I feel cheated. I can remember the arguments like they were yesterday I had with Brichard, Brich, PFFL, Arkman40, Speed & others about how Dale would still be able to function at a decent level 4-5 years later. They all said he would be an old man with little left in the tank. I remember PFFL saying that by 34 Dale would be out of the NBA. I remember saying over & over that Dale always took care of his body & never had knee problems so I felt he could play into his late 30's.

    Dale has even been better than I expected on his return. I was hoping for some solid play & good rebounding. But never in my wildest dreams did I figure he would still be the anchor of our defense.

    Do you see now what my problem was with our frontcourt defense. Ron Artest, for as good as he is & he is good, cannot defend the post like Dale Davis can. Flip side to that is that Dale could never defend the perimeter like Ron can either.

    That's why on the Foster debate I guess I never could see what you were saying because when I consider post defense everybody was compared to Dale & I'm sorry Jeff isn't even a third as good as Dale is. However now that Dale is back I've come to the bigger conclusion. My problem wasn't just with Foster, O'Neal is soft as well.

    Foster works with Dale & it suprises me as much as anybody because I never would have thought it would. I guess what disgusts me when he is on the floor with J.O. looks like a solid contribution when he is on the floor with Dale.

    In other words Dale Davis has made me think more of Jeff Foster & yes it has also made me think less of Austin Croshere.

    I still think the guy has been screwed in some ways by the club over the years, but it's hard to cry for a player making that kind of money. He would be a good guy at a cheaper rate or if he wanted to go somewhere where he could get P.T. I could see it.

    But I agree with you, we will see less & less of him this year & I think if they can move him they will this off-season.

    Once J.O. comes back it will be interesting to see who does start. My guess is that whether he starts or doesn't start Dale will get the lions share of the min. at the end of the game.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    I'm not sure if that was all that solid a win or not. Kind of flawed - and the kind of flawed game that is very positive.

    Quick Dale note & question: He did his usual unassuming defense/role player job. Loved it on that pick in the (I think) 2nd quarter where the Jazz player went flying, even though that was partly a flop. Here's my question - Has he lost anything since June of 2000? If he has, I'm not seeing it.

    As for the flaw, the team lost their focus in the 2nd quarter and never really got it back offensively until the Jazz woke them up. They started relying too much on SJax - not from the standpoint of his taking the most shots, which was good, but just giving him the ball early in possessions and asking him to create his shots rather than running sets where he's the guy open.

    The hopeful part is that even though the offense fell apart, other than a period in the 2nd, the defense held up. That's what wins games on the road and in the playoffs, though you're lucky it was the Jazz and not a decent team.

    Gotta say I'm becoming less enthusiastic about Sloan all the time. If he starts Okur chances are they aren't down 33-8 and chances are they win. Borchardt did nothing for them the entire night. And this isn't the first game that's happened. In some situations I'd look at that and say, "Well, their season's lost anyway so he wants to give a young player some minutes." But what's Okur?

    The really good coaches adapt their system to their players and it seems more like Sloan's trying to wedge players into his system. The system worked with Malone and AStockton but they aren't around any more. Heck, if JVG can adapt his system, Sloan should be able to. That team would work better with a bit more freedom on offense.
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    But I feel cheated. I can remember the arguments like they were yesterday I had with Brichard, Brich, PFFL, Arkman40, Speed & others about how Dale would still be able to function at a decent level 4-5 years later. They all said he would be an old man with little left in the tank. I remember PFFL saying that by 34 Dale would be out of the NBA. I remember saying over & over that Dale always took care of his body & never had knee problems so I felt he could play into his late 30's.
    I have the same argument with Knick fans re Kurt Thomas. He and Dale look very similar to players who stayed very effective well into their late 30's - folks like Otis Thorpe and Kevin Willis.

    These guys keep their conditioning up, they haven't had a lot of injuries and, most importantly, their games rely on physicality and fundamental soundness rather than athleticism. You don't turn into a weenie or a dumbass as you age.

    Those aren't the only guys. He's paid too much but some team that's ready to run for the title in the next couple of years needs to get their hands on PJ Brown. He can still board and defend with anyone. If I'm Minnesota, I'm looking at a way to get him to play next to KG. I see no reason why he can't stay at the same level the next two years until his contract's up.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    But I feel cheated. I can remember the arguments like they were yesterday I had with Brichard, Brich, PFFL, Arkman40, Speed & others about how Dale would still be able to function at a decent level 4-5 years later. They all said he would be an old man with little left in the tank. I remember PFFL saying that by 34 Dale would be out of the NBA. I remember saying over & over that Dale always took care of his body & never had knee problems so I felt he could play into his late 30's.


    That's why on the Foster debate I guess I never could see what you were saying because when I consider post defense everybody was compared to Dale & I'm sorry Jeff isn't even a third as good as Dale is. However now that Dale is back I've come to the bigger conclusion. My problem wasn't just with Foster, O'Neal is soft as well.

    Foster works with Dale & it suprises me as much as anybody because I never would have thought it would. I guess what disgusts me when he is on the floor with J.O. looks like a solid contribution when he is on the floor with Dale.

    In other words Dale Davis has made me think more of Jeff Foster & yes it has also made me think less of Austin Croshere.


    Once J.O. comes back it will be interesting to see who does start. My guess is that whether he starts or doesn't start Dale will get the lions share of the min. at the end of the game.

    My arguments with you about Foster were about his defense as compared to Cro, Brad and J.O. Never in my right mind would I have said that Jeff is a better post defender than Dale.

    Before I am critical of J.O. I want to see him paired with Dale.

    Question: how do you compare Dale's overall effect on the defensive end with what Brad Miller brought on the defensive end.


    Edit: I was not around to read the forum during the post Dale trade debate. Not sure who I would have sided with

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    Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Last night was the first time I've had a chance to really watch a Pacer game since Dale came back.

    My feelings are pretty much the same as everybody elses.

    I was very, very surprised in that I don't think he as lost a damn thing either.

    I'm also shocked by the difference in the team when he's on the floor. While I've always appreciated Dale, I did not expect him to have the impact he's had on overall team "toughness".

    IMO, when JO comes back, Dale should still start. Foster is just as effective coming off the bench as he is starting. And Reggie better keep being aggressive. If he is not actively looking for a shot, he shouldn't be out there. If I don't see at least one baseline floater by halftime, bench him. :-)

    Strange, but I have more hope for this season right now than I have in a while. IF Tinsley and JO get healthy (that's a big IF, I know), we could make a pretty serious run in the playoffs, even without the nutjob.

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    I'm not sure if that was all that solid a win or not. Kind of flawed - and the kind of flawed game that is very positive.

    As for the flaw, the team lost their focus in the 2nd quarter and never really got it back offensively until the Jazz woke them up. They started relying too much on SJax - not from the standpoint of his taking the most shots, which was good, but just giving him the ball early in possessions and asking him to create his shots rather than running sets where he's the guy open.

    The hopeful part is that even though the offense fell apart, other than a period in the 2nd, the defense held up. That's what wins games on the road and in the playoffs, though you're lucky it was the Jazz and not a decent team.

    Gotta say I'm becoming less enthusiastic about Sloan all the time. The really good coaches adapt their system to their players and it seems more like Sloan's trying to wedge players into his system. The system worked with Malone and AStockton but they aren't around any more. Heck, if JVG can adapt his system, Sloan should be able to. That team would work better with a bit more freedom on offense.
    Lord, I hate it when I agree with you.

    I can't get too excited about beating a crappy team that's only won something like 20 games this year. Especially since we blew a big lead.

    As for Sloan I really don't have an opinion other than to say that dog is probably too old to learn new tricks. Add to the fact that I'm pretty sure his wife died last year. He's probably pretty resistant to any kind of change right now.

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    My arguments with you about Foster were about his defense as compared to Cro, Brad and J.O. Never in my right mind would I have said that Jeff is a better post defender than Dale.

    Before I am critical of J.O. I want to see him paired with Dale.

    Question: how do you compare Dale's overall effect on the defensive end with what Brad Miller brought on the defensive end.

    Edit: I was not around to read the forum during the post Dale trade debate. Not sure who I would have sided with
    Defensively? Not even close.

    But then again I am very biased so you might want to look at it yourself. I just honestly consider & have always considered Dale one of the best post defenders in the NBA?

    I don't think Brad was the slouch you made him out to be but no way in my right mind would I compare him to Dale on post defense.

    I still think he's a better post defender than Jeff, but I've always said Jeff was better vs. the quicker 4 & 5's.

    However if your gonna ask me to pick between Dale & Brad I'm gonna plead the 5th. My heart would rule on this today so I don't make my son at me I will just not answer that one.

    I think I'm ready to admit that I want Artest & Dale in the lineup together.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    If you watch him on a switch you will see that the guard he switches to gets forced farther away from the basket than before he started. Dale has the ability to spread himself out on the floor & I have yet to see a guard get around him.

    Slick commented during the Denver game that our guys were afraid to guard anybody. They didn't want to get up on anyone for fear that they'd drive around them. I think Dale has helped change that mindset somewhat, both with his help on the guards and his presence in the lane if someone does get beat.
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Assuming the chemistry betwen Jax and Artest could be worked a lineup of

    Tinsley
    Jackson
    Artest
    J.O
    Dale

    With Jeff and Freddie coming off the bench. I dare someone to find a better top 7 on any other team in the whole NBA. That to me is a championship contender without question. Of course that assumes good health and no suspensions.

    At the very least I want to see those 7 healthy on on the roster next season and let's see what that team can do.

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    I know I am just going to sound like the Jamaal Tinsley guy when I say this but Harrison looked better IMO because Jamaal could get him the ball in scoring position. Other than the Orlando game he has not faired as well without Jamaal.

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    I'm gonna disagree with the basic premise.

    I thought this game was the whole "live and die by the three-point shot", all wrapped up in two completely disparate halves of a basketball game.

    Granted, the fourth quarter was a breath of fresh air for this team, given thier recent struggles and the big blown lead last night. But really, I think right now we're 100% dependent on our shooters being "red hot" and we've got a team full of streaky guys.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I'm gonna disagree with the basic premise.

    I thought this game was the whole "live and die by the three-point shot", all wrapped up in two completely disparate halves of a basketball game.

    Granted, the fourth quarter was a breath of fresh air for this team, given thier recent struggles and the big blown lead last night. But really, I think right now we're 100% dependent on our shooters being "red hot" and we've got a team full of streaky guys.


    I don't think anyone in their right mind with disagree with that at all.

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Nope won't disagree with the premise at all.

    However a win is a win & I'll take 2 wins & 1 loss vs. 3 losses anyday.

    I hate the three as much as you guys do, however we have to be realisitic, they are gonna take it. We have to hope they quit taking it so much, but there are just gonna be times when it happens.


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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Nope won't disagree with the premise at all.

    However a win is a win & I'll take 2 wins & 1 loss vs. 3 losses anyday.

    I hate the three as much as you guys do, however we have to be realisitic, they are gonna take it. We have to hope they quit taking it so much, but there are just gonna be times when it happens.

    Agreed. I just see our problems right now as being something bigger/ more fundamental than Dale alone can solve. I think he's been a spark, certainly. And I've enjoyed it. But so was James Jones during the last week of November. I think teams, especially our E.C. foes, will adjust to Dale's presence pretty quickly.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    And life itself, rushing over me
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    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    I know I am just going to sound like the Jamaal Tinsley guy when I say this but Harrison looked better IMO because Jamaal could get him the ball in scoring position. Other than the Orlando game he has not faired as well without Jamaal.
    The Hulkster looked better back when the refs let him play.........
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Agreed. I just see our problems right now as being something bigger/ more fundamental than Dale alone can solve. I think he's been a spark, certainly. And I've enjoyed it. But so was James Jones during the last week of November. I think teams, especially our E.C. foes, will adjust to Dale's presence pretty quickly.
    I don't want to sound like an idiot here, ok to late for that I realize, but I don't think you can adjust to solid inside defense without comprimising your game.

    Utah adjusted last night, they took more jumpers.

    Dale is on top of all things, a smart player. He does not get by with athlticism alone, although he is athletic.

    Now teams will start to try & expose the front court weakness on offense real soon so if that's what you mean I agree.

    But I don't think there is anything they can do but try & adjust thier plan of attack on offense & if that is the case then , to me, that can only be a good thing for the Pacers.


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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    They will adjust but Jermaine will be back in 3 games and we will have an offensive presence.

    I am one of the biggest Jeff Foster fans but I think Dale should be starting over him when Jermaine gets back. Jeff is a great backup center he is a decent starting center when we have Jamaal, Jermaine and Ron. Its just that right now we dont have any of those guys let alone all three.

    Thank God for Stephen Jackson I am so happy he is on this team. He may not be the defender that Ron is but he is a lot better than anyone else we have ever had at the sf other than Ron. (Yes I think he is better than Satan because he makes his man defend him)







    I just had a mental flash of Dale being in the post and Ron on the perimiter

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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat
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    Slick commented during the Denver game that our guys were afraid to guard anybody. They didn't want to get up on anyone for fear that they'd drive around them. I think Dale has helped change that mindset somewhat, both with his help on the guards and his presence in the lane if someone does get beat.
    No doubt that is true. I believe it was Anthony Johnson who said as much last night on the telecast, talking about what Dale meant to the team. Now the team knows they have someone who will have their back.

    A trio of Ron Artest, Dale and JO is a dream front line defensively.

    Regarding Dale's fresh legs, we have to remember he hasn't played much this year. Which is a blessing for us.

  24. #24
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    I get a little surprised at reactions to wins and losses sometimes. I guess I don't understand why so many expect for us to hold onto a 25 point lead. We made our run at the very beginning and the very end. Utah made theirs in the middle. It's the NBA game. Seems like if we make a run it's what we should be doing but when the other team does we suck.

    The win was solid last night - on the road, stayed together and evened our record. Solid.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Solid win last night vs. the Jazz

    That's what I'm getting at.

    I see teams borrowing from Rick and conceding the OR against us. Let Dale and Jeff clean the glass, but get back, into transition defense, and significantly increase the defensive pressure on the perimeter.

    Dale's post defense can be counter-attacked with effective ball-rotations. He'll prevent teams running iso's against us, but that's not really been our achilles heel - JO isn't as rugged of a post defender as Dale but he's historically been no slouch. Dale improves the ruggedness of the defense, which you and I and UB and others all appreciate, but even with Foster, post defense hasn't really been *the* problem for the Pacers this season.

    I wonder if teams will try to zone us up a little more - one roaming defender might be able to cover both Jeff and Dale - both are known to have difficulty catching the ball cleanly which allows the defender enough time to recover and still challenge the shot. This would only add defensive pressure to AJ/Fred, Reggie and SJax.

    Certainly, on the screen-and-roll, teams will trap (a la Dick Harter) our guards, so even though Dale can set some hellacious picks, I don't see the Pacers using that very much until Jamaal can play.

    I guess that's really my point - until Jamaal is healthy enough to run this team again, Dale changes the dynamics of the offense a little bit but not enough.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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