I agree with picking a choosing who to bench when one defensively screws up. We all were frustrated when Troy failed one on one defense, but McBob was bench or Tyler because of their failed rotations. So what is worse? Failed rotations or failed one on one?
The rotations helped failed one on one situations. And that will break down no matter how good of a defender you have. Bruce Bowen was a fantasic one on one defender. But if it weren't for the rotations for him to funnel the Kobe's into, I don't think he gets noticed enough.
The rotations are a fail safe. It is the breaks on an elevator system. And if the one on one fails you need the breaks.
So if we all know what was important to JOB, the system. Has Vogel been any different? And not just with benching a player who fails to rotate, but HIS rotations in and of themselves.
He is a young coach with unfamiliar players, and he is showing struggles in covering up their weakness with his system. I want Lance on he court more because I think he will learn to rotate eventually. If Tyler got better, Lance should. Roy struggled early in his career, but now is a fantastic in the paint helpside defender.
Lance getting benched has nothing to do with Bird not being here, his attitude, humbling him (I would buy this more than anything), or any other reason besides that Vogel values help side defense as much as his predecessor
I can't tell you exactly what qualities/traits contribute to that. But I can see it. (and I'll say the same thing about Hill.)
But even if he learns that, is point really where we want him? Maybe..in a structure like the Pacers where the point guard's job does seem to be to score. But I'd really like to see Lance in the context of a shooting guard, where there is a point guard and Lance is a secondary play maker. With the thought process of "make plays for myself first, make plays for others second." Because really, Lance's best quality in highschool and his one year of college was scoring. And his ability to score was why Larry liked him.
He's made a huge jump this year. He's certainly been the best bench player and deserves his spot in the starting lineup. But he did it by improving upon the things I, and many other people who criticized Lance, said he'd need to improve on. His shooting and the ability to play within a team concept. But perhaps expecting a larger role in the starting lineup would be too much for him. As much as he has a different mentality than PG, (who I think the idea of a "larger role" has gotten too, without Danny) he may not be able to handle it in terms of the way teams defend him. There's nothing wrong with taking it slow with Lance. That seems to have worked so far.
That all being said, Like Hill as a starting PG because he is the best player capable of playing pg, when Danny returns..Lance may still be the best option at backup PG. I'm willing to wager that Lance learns how to rotate far before DJ learns how to defend at anything. And letting Lance just do what he wants to do with the ball may be a better idea than having DJ try to run an actual offense with that group. Defensively, I don't know that it'll matter that much in the second unit, and offensively it pretty much HAS to be an improvement.
if it doesn't work than it doesn't work, but DJ isn't doing anything, and when Danny returns, someone is going to lose their playing time, and at least Young does something on one side of the ball.
I'm not totally convinced that our offensive scheme is really predicated on requiring a floor general, though.
In other words, the starting lineup at the end of last year worked well enough for us, and it featured Hill as the PG. We had great offensive efficiency, especially out of the first team.
I agree that while Lance will never be a Rondo-like "dictate the offense"-kind-of-player, I believe he still has the proper skill set to play the position. Additionally, he probably has fairly strong potential to be an effective post feeder which is a fundamentally important skill for our offense.
I'm like you... I like more traditional floor general type of point guards. That's not in our cards though... unless we make some sort of dramatic trade that shakes up the core of the team.
The problem is that we aren't.....every game I have seen him in the Starting Lineup....or playing with the Starters....he's moving around....gets to a certain spot behind the 3pt line....waits for the ball.....and then either takes a shot or passes the ball.
I'd hope that we could do this with Lance in the 2nd unit just to see what would happen since there are less Players to defer to. In all honesty...I'd rather shift Young to the Starting Lineup ( since he's already closing for the team ) and then run with a DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi lineup just to see if the 2nd unit scoring improves.
I'd expect him to be the least involved of the starting five now. He's the fifth best player, and he's the least experienced. (He also struggles a bit in the concept of the offense. As others pointed out, he often needs to be told where to be. A pretty common young player mistake..but that mistake makes it harder for them to be involved.)
Like I said, it might be to the team's benefit to just give Lance the keys to the backup unit. Him and Tyler can have good offensive chemistry and miss defensive rotations together. But then the question would be if it was would be the best thing for Lance's development. (Letting him do what he'd like). He needs to learn offensive structure, and giving him the keys means that he won't.
I just want to interject something here. When I first saw this was another thread about Lance, I was worried that it might turn into a bit of a negative thread. To say it another way, I was worried it would be another "argument" thread because, in the past, discussions about Lance have pushed some "hot buttons" for some of us. Instead, we have all been treated to a thread full of helpful debate, with both sides of the basketball coin being well presented and well thought out. Just another example of the quality of posters on this board.
OK, now get out the pitchforks and both sides go at it!
Given the Starting 4 penchant for scoring.....move Young to the Starting lineup and let him do a very poor man's impression of Battier where his role is to simply hound the opposing Wing Players and hitting the spot up 3 from time to time.
The main thing that I want to see is what Lance can do with the ball instead of playing off the ball. He's meant to be more than just a guy that can run around the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him so he can take a 3pt jumpshot.
If Paul George can continue his effectiveness like he showed last night against the Bulls, then I am even more interested in this scenario:
Lance first to be replaced
Lance subs in for Hill
Lance finished with the starters
This allows Lance to run the offense in Hill's absence. It allows us to take more advantage of Lance's offensive skills. It removes DJ's terrible defense from the equation.
If PG continues to step up, then the crying need for more offense with the starters is not there anymore. However, Lance has proven himself incredibly useful, even in stand in the corner mode, with the starters in terms of rebounds, assist/turnover efficiency, solid defense, and a heads-up in the clutch confidence and savvy when it matters at the end of games. So he needs to be in at the end.
The above scenario allows for all those needs. It puts DJ at the end of the stick, but he kinda deserves it.
Me: "You see anything that makes you want to try it again?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Vogel
Me before last night's game: "The definition of a point guard is fuzzy. What, in your mind, is a point guard?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Vogel
Originally Posted by Vogel
That makes me wonder if he sees Lance as a 2, because he doesn't have the experience doing those leader things or if it's because he doesn't think he can.
I really prefer to see how Lance can do running the show with Green/Young/Hansbrough/Mahinmi...but if that is not an option....then I'd like to see how DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi ( the eventual lineup when Granger returns ) will do.
I wouldn't change the situation now, the starting lineup needs all the offensive help it can get. But when Danny returns, I wouldn't be opposed to trying it. As I said, someone...Lance/Danny G/DJ/Sam is going to lose their minutes when Danny returns..And I'd personally make it DJ.
I'd understand if the drop off ( in terms of contribution ) between Lance and Young is significant....but it's not.
Given that the Starting lineup already has 3 1/2 better scoring options with GH/West/PG/Hibbert ( where Hibbert is the 1/2...until he can get his shooting confidence back ).....I'd think that it would make more sense to have a specific Role Player like Young ( purely as a defensive guy that can at least make 1 out of 3 open 3pt attempts ) in the Starting Lineup instead of having Lance stand at the perimeter waiting for the ball to be passed to him ( where he will either shoot a 3 or pass the ball ).
My thought is that if the 2nd unit will eventually be forced to play DJ at the point and Lance in the 2nd unit.....then shouldn't we see if we can get Lance assimilated to the 2nd Unit as soon as we can just to build Chemistry in the 2nd unit? Doing this would also assess how well Lance would do with another PG ( like DJ ) while filling the role as a SG that can "handle the ball very well".
IMHO..if he is going to end up in the 2nd unit regardless.....then the sooner the better.
My impression from multiple conversations is that Vogel does not see Stephenson as a point guard, now or in the future. However, he's used Lance at the point in the past (during preseason), so I don't think anything is set in stone.
Bruno was just saying on Dakich show that the best situation for Lance would be as the aggressive guy on the second unit.
But if you take Young and put him in the starting lineup (and I like Young for what he is) then that has an effect on everyone else. There's no reason to guard Young, making things even more difficult for Hibbert and West, and to an extent Hill and PG. It's not like the Pacers are really scoring well right now.
The bench has been terrible, but they just don't play enough for it to matter. I wouldn't have a problem with just cutting out DJ now, and playing Young and DG more, but I also think that's likely a little too much pressure on Lance at the moment.
Quote Originally Posted by Vogel
I liked what I thought I would see, in terms of the pace picked up, but I think DJ is our best option at backup point guard. Lance is a good push guy, but he’s a ‘2’.
I'm sure Frank was trying to be supportive, but at this point, weeks later, DJ still is doing none of the things he listed in that second quote. At least AJ had some leadership qualities. Yes, DJ's made me yearn for AJ.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Vogel
A lot of people think that if you can handle the ball, you’re a point guard. Lance can really handle the basketball. A true point guard is a setup guy with the basketball, but also, you’re an orchestrator of five men. You’re the coach on the floor. You’re the leader. You’re not only thinking the game, calling the sets out, but you’re making sure that everybody else is in their spots. You’re initiating the offense, getting it into a flow, and that’s what differentiates between the one and the two.